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Should these teens be tried as adults

Should the 15 and 16 year old also be tried as adults

  • yes and throw away the key

    Votes: 72 87.8%

  • no, they deserve a second chance

    Votes: 10 12.2%
  • Total voters
    82
sawyerloggingon said:
DUNCAN, Okla. (AP) — With the simplest of motives — breaking up the boredom of an Oklahoma summer — three teenagers followed an Australian collegiate baseball player who was attending school in the U.S. and killed him with a shot to the back for “the fun of it,” prosecutors said Tuesday as they charged two of the teens with murder.
As the boys appeared in an Oklahoma courtroom, a 17-year-old blurted out, “I pulled the trigger,” then wept after a judge told him that Tuesday’s hearing wasn’t the time or place to sort out the facts of the case.
Prosecutor Jason Hicks called the boys “thugs” as he told Stephens County Judge Jerry Herberger how Christopher Lane, 22, of Melbourne, died on a city street.
Chancey Allen Luna, 16, and James Francis Edwards, Jr., 15, of Duncan were charged with first-degree murder and, under Oklahoma law, will be tried as adults. Michael Dewayne Jones, 17, of Duncan was accused of using a vehicle in the discharge of a weapon and accessory to first-degree murder after the fact. He is considered a youthful offender but will be tried in adult court. 3 Teens Charged After Australian Player Slain « CBS Houston
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They were old enough to understand that what they did was wrong. They murdered a man in cold blood, and should face the full penalty of law. What's worse is that they did it because they shot him "for the fun of it". They don't belong in civilization, they belong in a zoo with the rest of the animals.
 
ChrisL said:
If you aren't referring to the death penalty, then I have no problem. I do believe they should be punished, but like I said earlier we've had the DP since Europeans first came to populate North America, and it hasn't really done anything to deter or prevent things like this from happening. I would like to see some solutions that actually work instead of the old "eye for an eye" routine.
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IF death meant death, it would have a deterent value. But its death, maybe after decades long appeals processes.
Or if you luck out, you will die of old age first.
And if you are put down, its nice and painless and calm with a last meal and people lined up to help you out.
What do you think was going through that kids mind after he was shot?
Was it a painless death? Did he get a last meal, a last phone call to loved ones? How about a trial?
No, he had his life snatched a way. Because some punks were bored.
 
ChrisL said:
Some more information from one of the links, if only to save myself from trying to type this stuff out. ;)
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I can go along with that.
I am thinking how I would feel, if even twenty years later,
if someone who had killed people for entertainment, moved in next door.
Someone who places such a low value on human life, would worry me.
I don't think time and maturity fixes what is broken!
 
CRUE CAB said:
IF death meant death, it would have a deterent value. But its death, maybe after decades long appeals processes.
Or if you luck out, you will die of old age first.
And if you are put down, its nice and painless and calm with a last meal and people lined up to help you out.
What do you think was going through that kids mind after he was shot?
Was it a painless death? Did he get a last meal, a last phone call to loved ones? How about a trial?
No, he had his life snatched a way. Because some punks were bored.
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Regarding the appeals process, anyone who understands our rights and the law can easily understand why the appeals process takes years. That is to ensure that our government is not murdering INNOCENT citizens. There have been numerous cases where prosecutors, etc., have engaged in illegal practices just to have a person convicted. This is a FACT. Just recently in Massachusetts there were TWO instances where the forensic laboratory technician forged results of their tests. One was having an affair with the assistant DA. Human beings are fallible, and THAT is why we have such an extensive appeals process.

How can you support state-sponsored murder of citizens after they are already in custody and no longer a threat? You are okay with our government murdering it's people? Because THAT is what it is.

The rest of your post is emotionally charged nonsense.
 
sawyerloggingon said:
DUNCAN, Okla. (AP) — With the simplest of motives — breaking up the boredom of an Oklahoma summer — three teenagers followed an Australian collegiate baseball player who was attending school in the U.S. and killed him with a shot to the back for “the fun of it,” prosecutors said Tuesday as they charged two of the teens with murder.
As the boys appeared in an Oklahoma courtroom, a 17-year-old blurted out, “I pulled the trigger,” then wept after a judge told him that Tuesday’s hearing wasn’t the time or place to sort out the facts of the case.
Prosecutor Jason Hicks called the boys “thugs” as he told Stephens County Judge Jerry Herberger how Christopher Lane, 22, of Melbourne, died on a city street.
Chancey Allen Luna, 16, and James Francis Edwards, Jr., 15, of Duncan were charged with first-degree murder and, under Oklahoma law, will be tried as adults. Michael Dewayne Jones, 17, of Duncan was accused of using a vehicle in the discharge of a weapon and accessory to first-degree murder after the fact. He is considered a youthful offender but will be tried in adult court. 3 Teens Charged After Australian Player Slain « CBS Houston
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they should be lined up and shot....."just for fun"
 
ChrisL said:
Regarding the appeals process, anyone who understands our rights and the law can easily understand why the appeals process takes years. That is to ensure that our government is not murdering INNOCENT citizens. There have been numerous cases where prosecutors, etc., have engaged in illegal practices just to have a person convicted. This is a FACT. Just recently in Massachusetts there were TWO instances where the forensic laboratory technician forged results of their tests. One was having an affair with the assistant DA. Human beings are fallible, and THAT is why we have such an extensive appeals process.

How can you support state-sponsored murder of citizens after they are already in custody and no longer a threat? You are okay with our government murdering it's people? Because THAT is what it is.

The rest of your post is emotionally charged nonsense.
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You post that then tell me my post is emotionally charged, hahahahahahah. You killin' me man. You shold do stand up.
 
CRUE CAB said:
You post that then tell me my post is emotionally charged, hahahahahahah. You killin' me man. You shold do stand up.
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Good response to the points I made. :mrgreen: Perhaps you should just bow out gracefully?
 
ChrisL said:
Good response to the points I made. :mrgreen: Perhaps you should just bow out gracefully?
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Why, I told you no matter what you say I will not change my mind on this. But you keep swinging a way with some weak bleeding heart BS about how we should handle these type of people.
 
Look, I can totally get why people are emotionally charged up. I hear cases all the time where I'm like, "I could kill that guy with my bare hands myself." But that's the emotional side of your brain taking over. Once you let the logical side take over, you realize that killing people for killing people is not only kind of stupid, but also completely unnecessary in today's day and age. It's more expensive to kill them because of the appeals process, it takes a really, really long time, and some actually die of natural causes before they're put to death, sometimes we find out someone IS actually innocent, etc.
 
CRUE CAB said:
Why, I told you no matter what you say I will not change my mind on this. But you keep swinging a way with some weak bleeding heart BS about how we should handle these type of people.
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Okay whatever. :shrug: This IS a debate site though. I thought you would be interested in actually defending your position, but that's fine by me. :)
 
ChrisL said:
And also:



I know why. It's because people get angry and break out their pitchforks and torches. Instead of thinking logically about the situation, they let emotion take over.
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Is it not rational to expect that you can jog down the street without being executed by "bored" minors? How is it logical to forgive violent crime simply because the perp was "too young" to think rationally? Why are these folks that, are unable to make rational decisions, allowed to pilot 2 ton missles upon our roadways?

The purpose of criminal law is to protect the rights of all in society from the actions of others that may choose to violate those rights, if you choose to exempt all under age X from that system and say that anything, including murder "for fun", is merely part of growing up "young and bored" does that not bother you?

You may not get "emotional" about the loss of Chris Lane, and have more sympathy/empathy for the young morons that thought killing someone was "fun", and an excellent way to relieve their bordom, but that opinion would likely change if it were your family or friend that was "erased" simply because some "kids" decided that it would be "fun" to watch them die.
 
ttwtt78640 said:
Is it not rational to expect that you can jog down the street without being executed by "bored" minors? How is it logical to forgive violent crime simply because the perp was "too young" to think rationally? Why are these folks that, are unable to make rational decisions, allowed to pilot 2 ton missles upon our roadways?
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Forgiveness is up to the family, not me. I never mentioned forgiveness. I agree, 16 years old is too young to be driving. They consist of 10% of drivers and make up at least 30% of all accidents. This is just another example of their impulsivity and recklessness, but because teens have jobs and do contribute to the economy people figure they need to drive too.

The purpose of criminal law is to protect the rights of all in society from the actions of others that may choose to violate those rights, if you choose to exempt all under age X from that system and say that anything, including murder "for fun", is merely part of growing up "young and bored" does that not bother you?
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Who said it didn't bother me? Of course it does. I'm a human being. I do at least try to look at it from a logical rather than an emotional point of view. It's difficult and I'm not always very successful, but I still don't feel the blood lust that others seem to have in this particular case. I already said that there should be special arrangements for situations such as this. BTW, this is sad and terrible, but it's certainly not the most heinous. FAR from it.

You may not get "emotional" about the loss of Chris Lane, and have more sympathy/empathy for the young morons that thought killing someone was "fun", and an excellent way to relieve their bordom, but that opinion would likely change if it were your family or friend that was "erased" simply because some "kids" decided that it would be "fun" to watch them die.
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Here is an example of you putting words into mouth because you are emotionally charged up about the murder. Never have I stated that I have more sympathy for them. Sorry that I don't agree with murdering children who are already in custody and no longer a threat to society.
 
ChrisL said:
Okay whatever. :shrug: This IS a debate site though. I thought you would be interested in actually defending your position, but that's fine by me. :)
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I have defended it. Right or wrong. Did these kids know it? Yep, they did. Did they kill anyway? Yep, they did. You defend THEM.
Anything less than life is not acceptable.
 
ChrisL said:
Forgiveness is up to the family, not me. I never mentioned forgiveness. I agree, 16 years old is too young to be driving. They consist of 10% of drivers and make up at least 30% of all accidents. This is just another example of their impulsivity and recklessness, but because teens have jobs and do contribute to the economy people figure they need to drive too.



Who said it didn't bother me? Of course it does. I'm a human being. I do at least try to look at it from a logical rather than an emotional point of view. It's difficult and I'm not always very successful, but I still don't feel the blood lust that others seem to have in this particular case. I already said that there should be special arrangements for situations such as this. BTW, this is sad and terrible, but it's certainly not the most heinous. FAR from it.



Here is an example of you putting words into mouth because you are emotionally charged up about the murder. Never have I stated that I have more sympathy for them. Sorry that I don't agree with murdering children who are already in custody and no longer a threat to society.
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Minors are exempt from the death penalty, but should not be exempt from LWOP for premeditated murder. The defense is not that they did this by accident, or did not understand the likely outcome of their actions - these morons planned to kill, selected (at least) one victim, took steps to hide eveidence, boasted of their actions and were planning on more killing.

Placing them in "kiddie jail" for a few months is not ample protection for society, from known, selfish monsters with no concern about the very lives, much less the rights, of others. These "good boys" should get what anyone capable of first degree murder gets - permanent removal from society.

If you think it "less cruel" to lock someone up for 60 years than to humanely terminate them then that is OK with me, as I see suffering in cage for "eternity" as being worse than a "painless" death.
 
ttwtt78640 said:
You may not get "emotional" about the loss of Chris Lane, and have more sympathy/empathy for the young morons that thought killing someone was "fun", and an excellent way to relieve their bordom, but that opinion would likely change if it were your family or friend that was "erased" simply because some "kids" decided that it would be "fun" to watch them die.
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What? You dont think he would go to the funeral of a loved one and tell the others that they should only think logically and to leave their emotions at home.
Think of what the killers are going through, how terrible their lives were and certianly will be in jail.
I had a friend murdered many years ago, and people like him gave the guy 20 years for an excecution style murder over a woman.
The killer was also a police officer as my friend was.
He is out now and keeps getting in trouble, but seems to keep getting chances. Even though he gave someone else no chance at all. He destroyed a family, but good god. We have to keep giving chances to a killer. LOL
 
CRUE CAB said:
What? You dont think he would go to the funeral of a loved one and tell the others that they should only think logically and to leave their emotions at home.
Think of what the killers are going through, how terrible their lives were and certianly will be in jail.
I had a friend murdered many years ago, and people like him gave the guy 20 years for an excecution style murder over a woman.
The killer was also a police officer as my friend was.
He is out now and keeps getting in trouble, but seems to keep getting chances. Even though he gave someone else no chance at all. He destroyed a family, but good god. We have to keep giving chances to a killer. LOL
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Sorry about your friend, but this is really nothing more than more emotional drivel. He was obviously an adult. These are kids. There are no points made in this post to counter any of the things I stated or the links I posted other than pleas to emotion. And who is "people like him?"

:shrug: I never ever said that these kids should get off lightly or any of the other completely ridiculous statements you made above, so let's TRY to behave like adults and have a reasonable discussion, unless you'd rather put your fingers in your ears and block out all reason and logic.
 
ChrisL said:
Sorry about your friend, but this is really nothing more than more emotional drivel. He was obviously an adult. These are kids. There are no points made in this post to counter any of the things I stated or the links I posted other than pleas to emotion. And who is "people like him?"

:shrug: I never ever said that these kids should get off lightly or any of the other completely ridiculous statements you made above, so let's TRY to behave like adults and have a reasonable discussion, unless you'd rather put your fingers in your ears and block out all reason and logic.
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Where have I not behaved like an adult?
I said, a few times. IF not death, life. Period. No parole, no milk and cookies, no rehab. Just jail.
 
let us not forget that at least one of these punk ass thugs was already on probation. I guess this event shows how effective that was
 
sawyerloggingon said:
DUNCAN, Okla. (AP) — With the simplest of motives — breaking up the boredom of an Oklahoma summer — three teenagers followed an Australian collegiate baseball player who was attending school in the U.S. and killed him with a shot to the back for “the fun of it,” prosecutors said Tuesday as they charged two of the teens with murder.
As the boys appeared in an Oklahoma courtroom, a 17-year-old blurted out, “I pulled the trigger,” then wept after a judge told him that Tuesday’s hearing wasn’t the time or place to sort out the facts of the case.
Prosecutor Jason Hicks called the boys “thugs” as he told Stephens County Judge Jerry Herberger how Christopher Lane, 22, of Melbourne, died on a city street.
Chancey Allen Luna, 16, and James Francis Edwards, Jr., 15, of Duncan were charged with first-degree murder and, under Oklahoma law, will be tried as adults. Michael Dewayne Jones, 17, of Duncan was accused of using a vehicle in the discharge of a weapon and accessory to first-degree murder after the fact. He is considered a youthful offender but will be tried in adult court. 3 Teens Charged After Australian Player Slain « CBS Houston
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I believe this is one area where the American justice system has it right. Young people, 15, 16 and 17, who commit such crimes are not children. Young offenders laws in my country are abused regularly by not only young adults under the age of 18 but by adults who use young people under the age of 18 to commit crimes.

On a side note, I would also charge whomever gave these young men a gun or allowed an insecured weapon to be taken by these young men to senselessly murder an innocent man.
 
TiredOfLife said:
Tell me, does this this crime make sense to you? Of course it doesn't, you're an adult. It's not about wrong or right, it's about having a brain mature enough to hear that clearly though all the other noise in your head. Teens know what is right most of the time, they just aren't any good at doing it. For that you need maturity, which they lack and therefore we call them teens or kids.
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No excuse is valid here. These kids are plenty old enough to have a basic concept of right and wrong and what they did is so far on the side of wrong that no reasonable person could call it a "lapse in judgement". All three are murderers. All three are sociopaths. All three are plenty adult to pay whatever price comes their way and to pay it in full. If, as a society, we choose to do otherwise then all we are doing is sending one more message to the already ****ed up thug culture that we'll tolerate absolutely anything they throw our way.

We get stuff like this because we're too lenient when we catch kids playing the "knockout game" and don't prosecute them. We get this because we don't prosecute vandalism and petty theft. We make all these excuses for these kids and then expect them to turn out fine? That's just stupid and to cut these soulless miscreants any slack whatsoever is insane.
 
CRUE CAB said:
Where have I not behaved like an adult?
I said, a few times. IF not death, life. Period. No parole, no milk and cookies, no rehab. Just jail.
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I think kids are worth a shot at rehabilitation. Throwing them into the adult system only creates more chaos and doesn't do any good, but like I said multiple times I think the juvenile system also needs to be fixed so that kids have to do more time in the system for more serious crimes. There are no easy answers, because either way you are going to be mixing adults with minors and that isn't a good thing because they are just not the same. When it comes to a particularly heinous crime, I really don't know what else to do other than holding them for life. Maybe they get transferred over to the adult system somehow, but this I can see having unintended consequences too.
 
Lutherf said:
No excuse is valid here. These kids are plenty old enough to have a basic concept of right and wrong and what they did is so far on the side of wrong that no reasonable person could call it a "lapse in judgement". All three are murderers. All three are sociopaths. All three are plenty adult to pay whatever price comes their way and to pay it in full. If, as a society, we choose to do otherwise then all we are doing is sending one more message to the already ****ed up thug culture that we'll tolerate absolutely anything they throw our way.

We get stuff like this because we're too lenient when we catch kids playing the "knockout game" and don't prosecute them. We get this because we don't prosecute vandalism and petty theft. We make all these excuses for these kids and then expect them to turn out fine? That's just stupid and to cut these soulless miscreants any slack whatsoever is insane.
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You can't make such claims considering you are NOT a psychiatrist and have never examined these kids, never mind even spoken with them.
 
ChrisL said:
I think kids are worth a shot at rehabilitation. Throwing them into the adult system only creates more chaos and doesn't do any good, but like I said multiple times I think the juvenile system also needs to be fixed so that kids have to do more time in the system for more serious crimes. There are no easy answers, because either way you are going to be mixing adults with minors and that isn't a good thing because they are just not the same. When it comes to a particularly heinous crime, I really don't know what else to do other than holding them for life. Maybe they get transferred over to the adult system somehow, but this I can see having unintended consequences too.
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Hold them in juvi till 18 then throw them in GP in prison.
 
And you can't say, well you're an adult when it comes to this, but not when it comes to this, this and this. Where the heck is the logic in that?
 
CRUE CAB said:
Hold them in juvi till 18 then throw them in GP in prison.
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**** juvie....they did a big boy crime, they need to go to big boy prison.
 
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