Is Obesity a disability?

Kreton said:

I have seen many posts on here basically saying that obesity should not be a disability because it is, in many cases, self imposed. If we are drawing that line I would question quite a few other disabilities under that same premise. Accidents at work that could have prevented? People who smoked? Have an accident doing a recreational activity? My point is many disabilities are caused by choices an individual makes. Obesity isnt really that different. If a person is unable to work due to physical or mental limitations, regardless of the cause then they are disabled.

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Risky behavior is different than a disability. Smoking is different from skiing.

That said, some insurers...and maybe more in the future...do require higher premiums for some activities. I have friends that have to pay more because they scuba dive.

Alot of it has to do with the insurer's risks and if the costs may have to be spread out over too many people too often. (I dont know insurance phrasing...it can be across an insurance pool or tax payers). Things like helmet laws and seat belt laws are driven by that.

Lursa said:

Risky behavior is different than a disability. Smoking is different from skiing.

That said, some insurers...and maybe more in the future...do require higher premiums for some activities. I have friends that have to pay more because they scuba dive.

Alot of it has to do with the insurer's risks and if the costs may have to be spread out over too many people too often. (I dont know insurance phrasing...it can be across an insurance pool or tax payers). Things like helmet laws and seat belt laws are driven by that.

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I dont disagree with what you are saying. However it doesn't change what I am saying about disability. There are many people who are on disability that caused their disability just as much as obese people.

There's no doubt obese people have it tough. I'm not going to weigh in on "disability" but a good friend of mine was around 400 or so before his surgery. People are obese for different reasons but people for some reason think they can treat you like **** when you're obese. That's actually people that say it to an obese persons face. I've been around when people have thought it's cool to randomly shout stuff to him in a public place. Now imagine what people think and don't say? Yeah...human beings are pretty ****ing horrible to people that are different but I wouldn't go as far to say it's a disability.

Kreton said:

I dont disagree with what you are saying. However it doesn't change what I am saying about disability. There are many people who are on disability that caused their disability just as much as obese people.

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Oh I see, you were looking at it more long term. Then yes, the result can be the same....except they look at things like those behaviors smoking, skiing, etc, as risk factors but they dont look at 'eating' as a risk factor (That I know of)

Lursa said:

Our bodies naturally crave certain things, like fat and sugar. We evolved to do so and our modern diets and physiology have not continued to progress at the same rates. That is not an 'underlying mental or physical issue.' That is human physiology.

"Most" people do not have diabetes or other medical conditions that contribute heavily to their obesity. (pun intended)

As far as I'm concerned, your claims are more incorrect than correct.

I havent seen the claims supported.

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Try reading the links provided. Every one of them talks about other issues besides eating too much or inactivity, though that is a factor for some.

My statements have been supported, including previous links. Your choice to either not read them or ignore what you read is on you.

Causes of Morbid Obesity: Genetic & Other - Wake Forest Baptist, North Carolina

Factors Contributing to Obesity

What Causes Overweight and Obesity? - NHLBI, NIH

Lursa said:

Oh I see, you were looking at it more long term. Then yes, the result can be the same....except they look at things like those behaviors smoking, skiing, etc, as risk factors but they dont look at 'eating' as a risk factor (That I know of)

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There may be a higher premium for obese people than others. I don't know for sure, but it would make sense.

Mason66 said:

For me it is important to know why they are obese.

If it is a medical condition I could go along with it.

if it is a choice, or they can't control what they put in their mouth, then no.

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All obesity at the extreme level is because of "fork in mouth disease" coupled with "couch potato syndrome".

Fat cannot build without the resources to do so. You limit those resources available to build fat by restricting the number of calories to those necessary to run bodily systems and by burning off any excess. Even those who suffer from medical conditions that limit exercise (I do), they can still control intake and still do limited exercise to control tendencies towards obesity.

Am I in perfect shape? No. I do suffer from limitations. But I am only a little over weight (25lbs or so) not obese to the level that the walking circus tents are. In the end, it doesn't matter what tendencies your body has, without the necessary resources to build fat, it cannot.

Hijinx said:

As the topic states: Do you think that obesity counts as a legitimate disability?

It's a pretty big deal in employment law according to the U.S. Equal Employment Opportunity Commission and they count it as such under the Americans with Disabilities Act Amendments Act. For all intents and purposes it would make sense that it does count as a disability, as they are technically disabled by definition (physical impairment or lack of physical functioning). But I just can't help but disagree with the notion. Especially considering how I know many people and I'm sure many of you might as well, who eat themselves into that situation. They're literally eating and drinking themselves into being disabled, and they get counted among those who are actually medically obese. That's just wrong to me.

Here is a humorous article about the subject: Obesity: A Disability or a Lack of Responsibility? | We Are People 2

Thoughts?

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I think you hit the nail on the head, only those who have a medical condition that causes obesity should be considered to have a disability. No one else. For most being being obese is a personal choice that if they so chose could do something about it. Granting all fat people a disability is just plain crazy to me.

Hijinx said:

As the topic states: Do you think that obesity counts as a legitimate disability?

It's a pretty big deal in employment law according to the U.S. Equal Employment Opportunity Commission and they count it as such under the Americans with Disabilities Act Amendments Act. For all intents and purposes it would make sense that it does count as a disability, as they are technically disabled by definition (physical impairment or lack of physical functioning). But I just can't help but disagree with the notion. Especially considering how I know many people and I'm sure many of you might as well, who eat themselves into that situation. They're literally eating and drinking themselves into being disabled, and they get counted among those who are actually medically obese. That's just wrong to me.

Here is a humorous article about the subject: http://wearepeople2.com/obesity-a-disability-or-a-lack-of-responsibility/

Thoughts?

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There's no doubt that obese people are less able than those who aren't obese.

But why are they obese?

If it's a self-inflicted problem, then they need to deal with it themselves.

shrubnose said:

There's no doubt that obese people are less able than those who aren't obese.

But why are they obese?

If it's a self-inflicted problem, then they need to deal with it themselves.

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Playing Devil's Advocate....what about drug addicts and alcoholics?

Many employer policies include rehab. (Not something I necessarily agree with).

Do you think we'll end up sending obese people to 'fat farms' on taxpayer supported health ins?

Lursa said:

Playing Devil's Advocate....what about drug addicts and alcoholics?

Many employer policies include rehab. (Not something I necessarily agree with).

Do you think we'll end up sending obese people to 'fat farms' on taxpayer supported health ins?

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I won't be a bit surprised when that happens, and I do believe that a lot of obese people should pay their own bills because it's a self-inflicted problem.

shrubnose said:

I won't be a bit surprised when that happens, and I do believe that a lot of obese people should pay their own bills because it's a self-inflicted problem.

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Yeah but what about drug addicts and alcoholics. We've ended up diagnosing those as 'diseases.' (Alcoholism at least).

I can see obesity following that trend

Andalublue said:

I think culture has a lot to do with obesity. It's a growing problem here in Spain, especially amongst kids who do very little exercise. Sports don't feature much in the schools' curriculum and the popularity of computer games and online social networking means that they don't do enough physical activity. The growing marketing of fast foods is also a part of the problem. Fortunately, that's not such a big deal here in the sticks where there isn't a McDonalds within 60km, but store-bought, highly processed foods are an issue, as are deadly, sugar-laden fizzy drinks.

Personally, I don't know any friends or neighbours who are morbidly obese although many, like me, could do to lose 20lbs or so.

What I see from the States (and parts of northern Europe) is that poor eating choices and unhealthy leisure activities are almost fetishised. The number of US sitcoms that show people arriving to work with huge trays of frosted and chocolatey doughnuts to share around has always struck me as weird. Do people really do that? Also, and someone will correct me if I'm wrong, people in the States seem to eat out at fast food diners and restaurants incredibly often and the kind of foods they eat in those places are all high-fat, high-sugar content fayre. I've nothing against fat-food joints as a very occasional treat, but Americans (and Brits, Germans, Dutch, Canadians etc) seem to do so far more than just 'occasionally'.

I'm probably about 12kg (25lbs) over my ideal weight for my age and height and I need to do something about that. I cook for a living and that always runs the risk of over-eating and drinking too much alcohol, but in my experience, the key is exercise. A lot of people get into a vicious cycle of over-eating, putting on weight and then feeling that exercise it too hard, so they don't, and the weight carries on increasing, leading to exercise seeming even harder. Everyone needs to be taught and encouraged to see how it is possible to break that cycle, start enjoying exercise again, and stop using comfort food as, well a comfort to forget about feeling unfit.

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Yes, absolutely. Easy eating and sedentary lifestyles are considered "the way forward." You're thought less of if you don't have a job that requires you to sit at a desk all day. If you're a mechanic or an electrician, you're low class or less intelligent, even though, let's be frank, that is an INCREDIBLY complicated job sometimes. I know an electrician who blew my mind with all the math and physics he's learned in the course of trying to be better at his job.

But because you're not sitting in a pressed shirt, it's looked down on.

As to your do-people-really-come-home-with-donuts question, yes, they do. They really do that. And yes, there are a lot of people who eat fast food several times a week -- for some people, every single day. And then they go on to say they can't lose weight. Hm...

Yeah, the extra 20 is really easy to do, and that I completely understand. Hell, my dad wound up with the extra 20 just from feeding me, basically. We ate high quality stuff, but I was a teenager who fenced pretty hard and had a metabolism like a rabbit and burned through food like it was going out of style. He tended to just eat whatever he'd made me in the same quantity. My dad had a pretty good metabolism for a middle-aged man, but certainly not as fast as mine, and it put a couple pounds on him. As soon as I moved out, it melted off -- he started eating according to his own need for food, rather than mine. He was also a bit more active, now that his daily life wasn't as home-centered.

And I've had friends who've put on the extra 20 after getting their first desk job and woke up and gone, "Time to go to the gym." Or maybe their metabolism just dove after they came out of their teens, and they have to bring down their consumption or ramp up their exercise.

It's super easy to do that in a society where sometimes we're required to be sedentary for much of the day and food is over-abundant for many of us.

But as you say, we have a degree of obesity in America that you don't find in too many other places. It just gets out of control. I live in the fittest city in the US, and I see people who are on the edge of mobility almost every day. How does this happen?

I understand the extra 20, and people who wake up and go, "Whoa, I put on some weight," and then go get themselves a diet plan and a gym card. I don't understand how people don't say that to themselves after putting on an extra 200, or 300, or 400. I've gotten out of shape lately for a number of reasons, some of which were a bit outside my control, and even though I'm not gaining weight (I still seem to have a redonkulous metabolism), I did physically feel bad, and eventually I just had to get off my ass and do something. I couldn't take feeling bad anymore -- just couldn't take it. Yeah, it's hard to start, even if you're not fat. Some trainers actually think it can be even harder for people who are thin and out of shape -- they don't need as much muscle to move themselves around, so they can experience a greater degree of wasting and weakness than someone who's overweight.

But being really out of shape, no matter what your weight, just feels miserable. How do people take it? How do people keep doing the stuff they know is making them miserable? I don't understand it.

SmokeAndMirrors said:

Yes, absolutely. Easy eating and sedentary lifestyles are considered "the way forward." You're thought less of if you don't have a job that requires you to sit at a desk all day. If you're a mechanic or an electrician, you're low class or less intelligent, even though, let's be frank, that is an INCREDIBLY complicated job sometimes. I know an electrician who blew my mind with all the math and physics he's learned in the course of trying to be better at his job.

But because you're not sitting in a pressed shirt, it's looked down on.

As to your do-people-really-come-home-with-donuts question, yes, they do. They really do that. And yes, there are a lot of people who eat fast food several times a week -- for some people, every single day. And then they go on to say they can't lose weight. Hm...

Yeah, the extra 20 is really easy to do, and that I completely understand. Hell, my dad wound up with the extra 20 just from feeding me, basically. We ate high quality stuff, but I was a teenager who fenced pretty hard and had a metabolism like a rabbit and burned through food like it was going out of style. He tended to just eat whatever he'd made me in the same quantity. My dad had a pretty good metabolism for a middle-aged man, but certainly not as fast as mine, and it put a couple pounds on him. As soon as I moved out, it melted off -- he started eating according to his own need for food, rather than mine. He was also a bit more active, now that his daily life wasn't as home-centered.

And I've had friends who've put on the extra 20 after getting their first desk job and woke up and gone, "Time to go to the gym." Or maybe their metabolism just dove after they came out of their teens, and they have to bring down their consumption or ramp up their exercise.

It's super easy to do that in a society where sometimes we're required to be sedentary for much of the day and food is over-abundant for many of us.

But as you say, we have a degree of obesity in America that you don't find in too many other places. It just gets out of control. I live in the fittest city in the US, and I see people who are on the edge of mobility almost every day. How does this happen?

I understand the extra 20, and people who wake up and go, "Whoa, I put on some weight," and then go get themselves a diet plan and a gym card. I don't understand how people don't say that to themselves after putting on an extra 200, or 300, or 400. I've gotten out of shape lately for a number of reasons, some of which were a bit outside my control, and even though I'm not gaining weight (I still seem to have a redonkulous metabolism), I did physically feel bad, and eventually I just had to get off my ass and do something. I couldn't take feeling bad anymore -- just couldn't take it. Yeah, it's hard to start, even if you're not fat. Some trainers actually think it can be even harder for people who are thin and out of shape -- they don't need as much muscle to move themselves around, so they can experience a greater degree of wasting and weakness than someone who's overweight.

But being really out of shape, no matter what your weight, just feels miserable. How do people take it?

How do people keep doing the stuff they know is making them miserable? I don't understand it

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There are plenty of possible explanations, but I believe that in a lot of cases it's because they enjoy doing what's creating their problem, and they don't have the willpower to get it under control.

Hijinx said:

As the topic states: Do you think that obesity counts as a legitimate disability?

It's a pretty big deal in employment law according to the U.S. Equal Employment Opportunity Commission and they count it as such under the Americans with Disabilities Act Amendments Act. For all intents and purposes it would make sense that it does count as a disability, as they are technically disabled by definition (physical impairment or lack of physical functioning). But I just can't help but disagree with the notion. Especially considering how I know many people and I'm sure many of you might as well, who eat themselves into that situation. They're literally eating and drinking themselves into being disabled, and they get counted among those who are actually medically obese. That's just wrong to me.

Here is a humorous article about the subject: Obesity: A Disability or a Lack of Responsibility? | We Are People 2

Thoughts?

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It's a disability once it interferes with their ability to leave their home and support themselves/family financially. I worked with a girl who was extremely large and she married a guy who was extremely large. Both of them worked every day and made a good income. She did suffer from challenges created by her extra 200 lbs such as leg chafing and her shoes never fit properly because of the need to buy shoes in a larger size due to the extra fat on her foot.

She is the only person I knew personally that overweight.

She was molested at a young age repeatedly by a babysitter. She maintains that contributed to her need to constantly eat (extra padding and protection) I think it's possible.

It's a hard fight. She got a lap band placed and that worked for a while. Then her weight shot up again. The key she found that worked for her was bulimia. She is still what I would think of as quite big but nothing like she was. However if she does not stop the bulimia it may well kill her.

Sad but true.

Lursa said:

Yeah but what about drug addicts and alcoholics. We've ended up diagnosing those as 'diseases.' (Alcoholism at least).

I can see obesity following that trend

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Well, here's the thing. Biologically, they are. And they're permanent.

Did you know that withdrawal from alcohol can kill someone outright? That's probably what killed Amy Winehouse, actually. The risk of death rises each time you relapse and quit. She probably died of repeatedly attempting sobriety, believe it or not.

Did you know that getting clean often leaves someone with permanent mental health problems, like depression, because of what long-term substance abuse has changed in their brain?

In addiction, the brain is re-wired to believe it needs the substance to live. That's why people get sick when they withdrawal, and with a couple substances like alcohol, can even die. It's why they don't necessarily ever return to normal, no matter how long they're clean.

It doesn't mean it's not worth getting clean. Of course it is, and there are endless benefits to quality of life of doing so. But the damage is permanent, and quitting is dangerous, and usually professional medical support needs to be involved. Sometimes forever.

That isn't so much the case with getting back into shape. Assuming you're not attempting to do so through disordered eating, you reap nothing but benefits. It doesn't cause depression. It cures it. It doesn't cause illness. It cures it.

Obese people don't continue to over-eat because they feel like they'll die if they don't. Most of them are actually unable to recognize what hunger feels like, because they never go long enough to actually get hungry. Obesity is, at most, an outlet for something else, which may be a disease (often a mental one). But it simply doesn't have the factors involved that addiction does.

This doesn't clearly answer the question of whether they should get benefits. I for one think it's insane to put health care on employers to begin with and it's unbelievable that we're still trying to run our system this way. But it's not debatable that addiction is a disease. It is often genetic, and it has real physical manifestations in the brain and body.

GottaGo said:

What drives people to over eat? Usually a psychological state that causes them to crave food (there are a multitude of reasons that can cause that state of mind). And it can be a vicious circle... the more you weigh, the more tired you feel, the less active you will be.

The state of mind is the primary cause. The obesity is a symptom of that state of mind.

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I'm not sure that most obesity is caused by over-eating, not in terms of sheer volume. I suspect that most obesity is caused by lower-income people trying to get the most filling bang for their food dollar and not knowing how to cook a healthy diet- and not knowing the importance. If you know that $20 worth of KFC will feed your family and you don't know how to turn $20 into a healthy meal, you have already made a decision.

I think in some cases it can be caused by a physical and/or mental disability.

But I do not think that is always the case.

Unless you consider lazyness a mental disability. Who knows, it may be?

Self inflicted disability, but a disability none the less. Not one that deserves special privilages. I think most who are against it being classified as a disability are worried taxpayers will pay for it. I think a distinction can be made here.

SmokeAndMirrors said:

Well, here's the thing. Biologically, they are. And they're permanent.

Did you know that withdrawal from alcohol can kill someone outright? That's probably what killed Amy Winehouse, actually. The risk of death rises each time you relapse and quit. She probably died of repeatedly attempting sobriety, believe it or not.

Did you know that getting clean often leaves someone with permanent mental health problems, like depression, because of what long-term substance abuse has changed in their brain?

In addiction, the brain is re-wired to believe it needs the substance to live. That's why people get sick when they withdrawal, and with a couple substances like alcohol, can even die. It's why they don't necessarily ever return to normal, no matter how long they're clean.

It doesn't mean it's not worth getting clean. Of course it is, and there are endless benefits to quality of life of doing so. But the damage is permanent, and quitting is dangerous, and usually professional medical support needs to be involved. Sometimes forever.

That isn't so much the case with getting back into shape. Assuming you're not attempting to do so through disordered eating, you reap nothing but benefits. It doesn't cause depression. It cures it. It doesn't cause illness. It cures it.

Obese people don't continue to over-eat because they feel like they'll die if they don't. Most of them are actually unable to recognize what hunger feels like, because they never go long enough to actually get hungry. Obesity is, at most, an outlet for something else, which may be a disease (often a mental one). But it simply doesn't have the factors involved that addiction does.

This doesn't clearly answer the question of whether they should get benefits. I for one think it's insane to put health care on employers to begin with and it's unbelievable that we're still trying to run our system this way. But it's not debatable that addiction is a disease. It is often genetic, and it has real physical manifestations in the brain and body.

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Complete withdrawal from food can kill you too. Fortunately, that's not necessary to beat obesity

Lursa said:

Complete withdrawal from food can kill you too. Fortunately, that's not necessary to beat obesity

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Yes, but that isn't disordered. It is disordered to become dependent for life on a neurotoxin.

Yes and no. Obesity can be very disabling; however, obesity should not count as a disability for parking or government assistance.

But then someone could argue that losing a leg from smoking shouldn't be considered for disability benefits.

shrubnose said:

I won't be a bit surprised when that happens, and I do believe that a lot of obese people should pay their own bills because it's a self-inflicted problem.

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There's a trend lately where people eat themselves into obesity and then get gastric bypass on medicaid/Medicare or the like. Basically for free... Well on our tax dollars.

herenow1 said:

There's a trend lately where people eat themselves into obesity and then get gastric bypass on medicaid/Medicare or the like. Basically for free... Well on our tax dollars.

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unfortunately even after using tax dollars for bypass it is not always successful long term

~SAL said:

unfortunately even after using tax dollars for bypass it is not always successful long term

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True, because people tend to return to old habits. I also know many of them don't implement exercise and they look "saggy".
They just see it as a quick fix without having to do anything. I probably know at least 12-14 people who've had it done and none of them implemented exercise. They still eat crap just smaller portions.