Non consentual sex is not rape

German guy said:

Maybe it indeed depends on defitinitions ... what if one party assumed it was consensual, as the other party claimed it indeed was in the act, but legally, that other party was not fully responsible due to drug/alcohol use?

I guess that's a grey area. Maybe legally, the second party could claim lack of responsibility or capacity to consent, but it's doubtful the first party was able to recognize that.

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Yeah... it is as you said, a gray area. Anyway, taking your example, as far as I know it goes like this. If you're drunk/high and you accuse someone of rape, and he denies it (your word vs his word) you have very little to stand on. If it's the other way around, then you may just win. Because being drunk is not a "get out of jail free" card for any stupid thing you do, but being drunk and you had stupid things done to you may be the other guys' get out jail free card because he can claim you agreed.

Why are the alledged rape victims complaining to the school, instead of the police? I don't understand that.

Re: Non consensual sex is not rape

molten_dragon said:

I consider using violence or the threat of violence to have sex with a woman worse than having sex with a woman who is too drunk to legally consent.

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Good point
This is something that should be set and decided by a panel of 6 women and 4 men...
I doubt if any college is ran in this manner...it could even be 10 men...0.0 women...
A man does not know what it feels like to be raped...he cannot possibly know..
I voted in the minority...this time..
I am of the old school.....get her drunk and she is yours.......
The "old school" was NOT good, particularly for women and minorities...
And schools are constantly changing.

Moot said:

Why are the alledged rape victims complaining to the school, instead of the police? I don't understand that.

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Maybe they didn't have a strong enough case for a criminal prosecution? Pretty difficult to tell without much real information.

molten_dragon said:

I don't consider all non-consensual sex to be rape. I think that there are various kinds of non-consensual sex, some of which are worse crimes than others, and I don't think a blanket term for all of them is a good thing.

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What?? non-consensual sex is the definition of rape. The two words mean exactly the same thing.

Simon W. Moon said:

Sex misconduct report spurs criticism of disciplinary procedures | Yale Daily News

...University Title IX Coordinator and Deputy Provost Stephanie Spangler...
it employs the term “non-consensual sex” rather than “rape” or more explicit language to allow the University to impose sanctions for behaviors that may not meet a criminal standard.
​

.
So if they call it rape then they're using a legal term and then have a higher burden of proof to meet.
And, likely, unless the perpetrators are convicted, they run into the possibility of defamation lawsuits.

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This is where an old-fashioned ass-whipping by the victim's daddy is called for. I can hear that conversation now. Perp says "Do you know who I am? You can't touch me!" ...followed by the sound of someone spitting out a couple of teeth.

earthworm said:

NO
Things are far more complicated than that.
We are dealing with humans, not machines
Emotions matter, even rule the day.
We just have to figure out a better way of judging situations..
And, as is well known, or should be, rape is NOT just plain sex, its violence..
IMO, a big difference.

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Sorry, you're wrong. The legal definition of rape is non-consensual sex. Violence is not a requirement for it to be classed as rape.

Come on....this has been brought up numerous times.

College kids get drunk, do drugs, and sometimes do really dumb things. Both males and females often get caught up in some major binge drinking/partying.

I've known many people in college days who'd consistently get so wasted they'd not be able to remember large chunks of the night when questioned about their behavior the next day.

If both the male and the female are trashed and end up in bed together, but the next day the girl says she did not consent to sex, can you - beyond a reasonable doubt - convict the guy of rape??????

Are you seriously going to say that in 100% of all cases where alcohol and/or drugs have played a major role in the night's events, that any time a girl says she was raped, that a "rape" was actually committed?

You're going to sit there and say that college girls NEVER lie? Not ever?

Dragonfly said:

Come on....this has been brought up numerous times.

College kids get drunk, do drugs, and sometimes do really dumb things. Both males and females often get caught up in some major binge drinking/partying.

I've known many people in college days who'd consistently get so wasted they'd not be able to remember large chunks of the night when questioned about their behavior the next day.

If both the male and the female are trashed and end up in bed together, but the next day the girl says she did not consent to sex, can you - beyond a reasonable doubt - convict the guy of rape??????

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It may be difficult to get a conviction in that scenario, but that doesn't mean a rape didn't happen. Conviction rates in those scenarios are notoriously low

Dragonfly said:

Are you seriously going to say that in 100% of all cases where alcohol and/or drugs have played a major role in the night's events, that any time a girl says she was raped, that a "rape" was actually committed?

You're going to sit there and say that college girls NEVER lie? Not ever?

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Some do lie, but this is a small minority. If a girl is so drunk that she can't make an informed decision to consent, then that is rape.

Mr X said:

Some do lie, but this is a small minority. If a girl is so drunk that she can't make an informed decision to consent, then that is rape.

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What if the guy is equally as drunk????????

Rape is a super serious and life damaging charge to levy against a guy.

Her objection to the sex only comes the following day. When she's once again sober.

You still saying it's "rape". You want hard-core prison time for the guy simply because they both got drunk and she was too f-d up to remember if she consented or not?

I suppose it depends a lot on how much regret, second thoughts, embarrassment, panic and dissatisfaction are involved in the definition of "non-consensual", and which parties are possessed of them.

Dragonfly said:

What if the guy is equally as drunk????????

Rape is a super serious and life damaging charge to levy against a guy.

Her objection to the sex only comes the following day. When she's once again sober.

You still saying it's "rape". You want hard-core prison time for the guy simply because they both got drunk and she was too f-d up to remember if she consented or not?

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If she was that ****ed up, then she wasn't capable of consent and therefore she didn't consent. It is rape.
If, at the time of sex taking place, she doesn't consent, or she is so intoxicated that she can't make an informed decision to consent, then that is rape.

If she is a bit drunk but still compos mentis and consents at the time but then changes her mind in the morning, that is not rape.
Remember: If she is so drunk that she is non compos mentis, she is not capable of consent, and therefore there is no 'change of mind' the following morning. That is rape.

Mr X said:

If she was that ****ed up, then she wasn't capable of consent and therefore she didn't consent. It is rape.
If, at the time of sex taking place, she doesn't consent, or she is so intoxicated that she can't make an informed decision to consent, then that is rape.

If she is a bit drunk but still compos mentis and consents at the time but then changes her mind in the morning, that is not rape.
Remember: If she is so drunk that she is non compos mentis, she is not capable of consent, and therefore there is no 'change of mind' the following morning. That is rape.

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And if life was purely black and white things would be easy.

Unfortunately in many cases life is not that simple.

Which is probably why there are times when the sex can be labeled "non consensual" but charges of "rape" can't be levied.

One can not go back in time and reasonably access how drunk two people were and who said what and when.

I did a thread a while about about legal systems. Most would prefer that they live in a system that would let a guilty person go free as opposed to a system that would put innocent people in jail.

I'm guessing the "non consensual" thing is centered around "beyond a reasonable doubt".

You can begin to see where these guys came up with the idea of "Unlawful Combatants"

Dragonfly said:

And if life was purely black and white things would be easy.

Unfortunately in many cases life is not that simple.

Which is probably why there are times when the sex can be labeled "non consensual" but charges of "rape" can't be levied.

One can not go back in time and reasonably access how drunk two people were and who said what and when.

I did a thread a while about about legal systems. Most would prefer that they live in a system that would let a guilty person go free as opposed to a system that would put innocent people in jail.

I'm guessing the "non consensual" thing is centered around "beyond a reasonable doubt".

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the definition of rape is non-consensual sex; that is what it means.
If you have sex with someone who doesn't, or can't consent, that is rape. Yes, there will be cases where it is difficult to establish the facts of what happened, in which case an acquittal will be likely. That doesn't mean a rape didn't happen.

The idea that non-consensual sex and rape are somehow different is wrong.

sawyerloggingon said:

So according to Yale university non consensual sex is not always rape. I guess I'm old fashioned but I kinda thought non consensual sex was the definition of rape.

Yale University has found six students guilty of 'non-consensual sex' in the past six months and not one of them has been expelled from the prestigious Ivy League college, according to an official report.
Four of the perpetrators were given written reprimands after the victims reported the sexual assaults to staff, one student received probation and another was suspended for two semesters but will be free to return next year to graduate - with an Ivy League diploma.

Yale, which is based in New Haven, Connecticut, said it responded to a total of eight reports of sexual assault in the first half of 2013. The other two students were found not guilty of rape allegations, the school said.


Read more: Yale's sexual misconduct report does not mention rape instead referring to it as 'non-consensual sex' - a crime they punish with just a written reprimand | Mail Online

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you have to wonder. It probably comes under a student discipline policy, although the penalty seems pretty light considering that there is an allegation of an assault. I am assuming that the fact that the students have been dealt with under the University's policy doesn't preclude criminal charges being laid, and perhaps the likelihood that the penalties may be severe has been factored into the penalty. if the perpetrators are law students it also may have far reaching consequences.

even so, the issues raised in the article are important - but unfortunately it certainly isn't unique to that campus.

earthworm said:

NO
Things are far more complicated than that.
We are dealing with humans, not machines
Emotions matter, even rule the day.
We just have to figure out a better way of judging situations..
And, as is well known, or should be, rape is NOT just plain sex, its violence..
IMO, a big difference.

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How does a man get a woman to have sex without her consent if violence or threat of violence is not used?

Dragonfly said:

Come on....this has been brought up numerous times.

College kids get drunk, do drugs, and sometimes do really dumb things. Both males and females often get caught up in some major binge drinking/partying.

I've known many people in college days who'd consistently get so wasted they'd not be able to remember large chunks of the night when questioned about their behavior the next day.

If both the male and the female are trashed and end up in bed together, but the next day the girl says she did not consent to sex, can you - beyond a reasonable doubt - convict the guy of rape??????

Are you seriously going to say that in 100% of all cases where alcohol and/or drugs have played a major role in the night's events, that any time a girl says she was raped, that a "rape" was actually committed?

You're going to sit there and say that college girls NEVER lie? Not ever?

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Just out of curiosity what would you call it if A man passed out drunk and another man had anal intercourse with him? You might want to think about that.

sawyerloggingon said:

Just out of curiosity what would you call it if A man passed out drunk and another man had anal intercourse with him? You might want to think about that.

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Naw, apparently, if you're drunk and passed out, you're giving implied consent.

X Factor said:

Naw, apparently, if you're drunk and passed out, you're giving implied consent.

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Please quote the post where someone says that.

sawyerloggingon said:

Just out of curiosity what would you call it if A man passed out drunk and another man had anal intercourse with him? You might want to think about that.

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There is a major difference between being passed out and just feces-faced drunk.

Nobody else here has ever known anyone who gets so intoxicated that they do things completely out of character?
Then the next day, they deny having any knowledge or recollection of having done those things?

Re: Non consensual sex is not rape

earthworm said:

Good point
This is something that should be set and decided by a panel of 6 women and 4 men...
I doubt if any college is ran in this manner...it could even be 10 men...0.0 women...
A man does not know what it feels like to be raped...he cannot possibly know..
I voted in the minority...this time..
I am of the old school.....get her drunk and she is yours.......
The "old school" was NOT good, particularly for women and minorities...
And schools are constantly changing.

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Bull. Men are rape victims, even some having women rape them. This belief that men cannot be raped by a woman is just plain wrong. It can happen and does happen.

Re: Non consensual sex is not rape

Story from the boat.

When I first got to the ship there was a female electrician in my berthing who had just been transferred from another carrier. She had been transferred for making a false rape accusation. She was a lesbian. Her and her girlfriend had a fight one day and she went to a bar where a bunch of the guys she works with on the ship hangout. She was flirting with one of those guys who eventually took her home. They had been drinking about the same amount and were tipsy but not really drunk. They had sex, but the next day, she made up with her girlfriend. She said the guy had raped her because she was too drunk to consent to sex. The other guys that were in the bar though swore that neither were really drunk and she was definitely enticing the guy for sex. During questioning (it hadn't left the department yet), she broke down and confessed that she had lied about it so that she wouldn't get into trouble with her girlfriend (as a nuke, unless something was officially in a record, DADT was detrimental to our manning so it was avoided if at all possible). This came directly from her. She told me this is what happened.

We had to have training just recently about sexual assault on top of our annual training. And I want to tell you it pisses me off when civilians criticize the military for our record on sexual assault or harassment when I am willing to bet we do better than the civilian world overall because in general, a guy accused of any sexual assault or sexual harassment is considered guilty until proven innocent (which disgusts me to no end). I was livid about this point in that training. It ticked me off when they said that people should suspend their belief that a person wouldn't do that. I consider testimony on people's character to be important. Are there some who would use their known good reputation to do bad things? Sure. But there are also a lot of guys who wouldn't do such things and who some women (or even other guys) may take advantage of the fact that the rules favor that very fact that character of the perpetrator is completely ignored when an accusation is made. This is why it scares me to have my husband go anywhere with women he works with alone. There simply is always that chance that one of those women may be the kind that tries to make a false accusation and his career would be ruined, even if it comes out as a false accusation.

Now, as a woman in the military as well, I know that most women really wouldn't make false accusations. But it only takes that one who would to ruin a career. The same could very well be true for college students, particularly those in such an influential college. Some of these girls could just have been shunned by the guy and want revenge. Maybe he was using her for a one night stand and she feels dirty. Or maybe they were both drunk and she regretted sleeping with him. Or maybe they really were taken advantage of. Those who are truly victimized I feel sorry for, but unfortunately, this is why we have to be cautious about what we do and who we hang out with. It is just as bad for the guy who is falsely accused and loses his dreams in life because of that accusation as it is for the woman who was raped. But just going off of the information given, it seems that these were definitely more likely to be cases of "he said, she said" drunken encounters.

Dragonfly said:

If a girl that would never say "yes" to sex with some random dude gets pretty damn drunk, like to the point where she doesn't remember a few hours from the previous night, and says "yes" to sex during that drunken night, then wakes up the next morning with a naked guy she doesn't know from Adam, was she raped?

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Yes.

Suppose there's nobody around to confirm or deny that she said "yes" to sex but the guy, who was also quite drunk at the time?

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People cannot legally give consent when drunk. Nearly every rapist who has ever lived was a male.

Plenty of people saw them making out and grinding each other on the dance floor, and plenty saw them leave together, and then enter the girls dorm.
But nobody knows what happened once they entered the girl's room and closed the door.

She just woke up and found a naked guy lying next to her, and she states emphatically that she did NOT consent to sex.

The guy swears not only did she say "yes", but she initiated the sex.

He said/she said.

Rape?

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Except, that's not how it tends to go down. Rape is a choice.