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Is atheism a religion[W:711:831]

Is atheism a religion


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Re: Is atheism a religion

Here's a link attempting to identify many (not all) quotes about religion and gov't and separation of church and state attributed to James Madison:
James Madison His Writings

Seriously, why do you have such a hard on for Madison? Because he's the only one of the founding fathers you can make fit into your mold?
 
Re: Is atheism a religion

[ . . . ] Did Madison think it preferable that religion is allowed in American society? Is the current definition of separation of church and state what Madison had in mind when he penned separation of church and state? [ . . . ] IMO, no one religion should have state status, and people should be able to worship as they please? You do realize this is NOTHING like the current definition of the separation of church and state... that state should be DEVOID of religion... [ . . . ] IMO, Madison would be saying that the state, when disallowing someone from practicing their own religion (even in a gov't context), is not keeping to the intent of the religion portion of the first amendment. [ . . . ] Madison's stated in many contexts and venues that people in America should be allowed to practice their own religion's beliefs, how has the definition of the separation of the church and state been bastardized - to mean gov't should be DEVOID of religion?

You are terribly confused about the difference between an individual and a government. Individuals are, and have always been, free to practice their own religious beliefs. That's not being challenged in any way by anyone of note. It never has been. The Government, however, is not to direct that practice. The Government being prevented from getting involved with religion in no way whatsoever prevents individuals from practicing their own beliefs.

The practice of religion in our society is in no way being limited. The involvement of the government into that practice, however, is, and has been since the founding.
 
Re: Is atheism a religion

You are terribly confused

You could have just stopped there and saved yourself a lot of typing. :)
 
Re: Is atheism a religion

You are terribly confused about the difference between an individual and a government. Individuals are, and have always been, free to practice their own religious beliefs. That's not being challenged in any way by anyone of note. It never has been. The Government, however, is not to direct that practice. The Government being prevented from getting involved with religion in no way whatsoever prevents individuals from practicing their own beliefs.

The practice of religion in our society is in no way being limited. The involvement of the government into that practice, however, is, and has been since the founding.

For example, the Methodist religion in New Jersey was denied state tax exempt status in New Jersey, because a church in New Jersey refused to allow a lesbian couple to be married in their facility, because same-sex marriages are not allowed in the Methodist religion. How does this fly with the first sentence of the bolded, a somewhat fairytale statement? How does the second sentence of the bolded fly when examining the religion portion of the first amendment to the Constitution (that there should be no one gov't religion determined by gov't)?

Matter of fact, how does a religion lose tax exempt status in the first place? According in the Constitution, all religions are to be exempt from taxes.
 
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Re: Is atheism a religion

You are terribly confused about the difference between an individual and a government. Individuals are, and have always been, free to practice their own religious beliefs. That's not being challenged in any way by anyone of note. It never has been. The Government, however, is not to direct that practice. The Government being prevented from getting involved with religion in no way whatsoever prevents individuals from practicing their own beliefs.

The practice of religion in our society is in no way being limited. The involvement of the government into that practice, however, is, and has been since the founding.

So an individual has the right to exercise their own religious beliefs as long as it's not in a gov't setting. How does this fly with the religion portion of the first amendment? Not well at all.
 
Re: Is atheism a religion

Seriously, why do you have such a hard on for Madison? Because he's the only one of the founding fathers you can make fit into your mold?

Why don't you read about Madison's influence to the Constitution concerning religion and gov't?
 
Re: Is atheism a religion

So an individual has the right to exercise their own religious beliefs as long as it's not in a gov't setting. How does this fly with the religion portion of the first amendment? Not well at all.

No. Even in a government setting they're allowed to practice their belief as an individual. NOT as an official. In other words, not as an act of office, and not acting in the capacity of the officeholder. If you were mayor, you'd have every right to personally hate gays if that's your religious belief. But if you tried to direct the Office of the Mayor to attack gays, that would be illegal. Your personal religious beliefs are not the religious beliefs of the office, itself.

So when some asshole like ex-Judge Roy Moore says he's going to ignore Alabama law and adjudicate from the Bible, instead, he gets disbarred and kicked off the bench, because he was trying to use his office as a religious establishment. Had he kept his personal view personal and faithfully executed the office he held, then he wouldn't have had any problem.

For example, the Methodist religion in New Jersey was denied state tax exempt status in New Jersey, because a church in New Jersey refused to allow a lesbian couple to be married in their facility, because same-sex marriages are not allowed in the Methodist religion. How does this fly with the first sentence of the bolded, a somewhat fairytale statement? How does the second sentence of the bolded fly when examining the religion portion of the first amendment to the Constitution (that there should be no one gov't religion determined by gov't)?

Matter of fact, how does a religion lose tax exempt status in the first place? According in the Constitution, all religions are to be exempt from taxes.

This is bunk. Debunking The Four Most Commonly Cited Anti-Equality Horror Stories | Equality Matters

They had to change from one tax exempt status to another. They were using land tax-exempt as a non-profit maintaining publicly-accessible facility, but they were denying access to those facilities based on gender. They had to change it to a religious tax-exemption.

Mind you, they weren't excepted from the non-religious non-profit for refusing to perform same-sex marriages, but refusing to allow others to access the pavilion to perform same-sex marriages outside of the church. Since they were using a tax-exempt status for publicly accessible facilities, they can't do that -- unless they want to change the tax exemption status.
 
Re: Is atheism a religion

No they shouldn't have time to worship unless it is at their leisure during break, lunch, or free time within class...that is it...nothing special taken out so they can pray.

Seriously...

At what point did people assume they were owed the privilege of holding up places of learning or other functions with their praying?

Just pray in your head God can still hear you.
 
Re: Is atheism a religion

How are places of learning or 'other functions' being held up if groups of people agree to meet and worship?

And how is what, I assume, you're trying to prevent more heinous an offense than being forced to listen to an ideological professor say that homosexuality is heredity??
 
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Re: Is atheism a religion

No. Even in a government setting they're allowed to practice their belief as an individual. NOT as an official. In other words, not as an act of office, and not acting in the capacity of the officeholder. If you were mayor, you'd have every right to personally hate gays if that's your religious belief. But if you tried to direct the Office of the Mayor to attack gays, that would be illegal. Your personal religious beliefs are not the religious beliefs of the office, itself.

So when some asshole like ex-Judge Roy Moore says he's going to ignore Alabama law and adjudicate from the Bible, instead, he gets disbarred and kicked off the bench, because he was trying to use his office as a religious establishment. Had he kept his personal view personal and faithfully executed the office he held, then he wouldn't have had any problem.



This is bunk. Debunking The Four Most Commonly Cited Anti-Equality Horror Stories | Equality Matters

They had to change from one tax exempt status to another. They were using land tax-exempt as a non-profit maintaining publicly-accessible facility, but they were denying access to those facilities based on gender. They had to change it to a religious tax-exemption.

Mind you, they weren't excepted from the non-religious non-profit for refusing to perform same-sex marriages, but refusing to allow others to access the pavilion to perform same-sex marriages outside of the church. Since they were using a tax-exempt status for publicly accessible facilities, they can't do that -- unless they want to change the tax exemption status.

Who runs the facility, the chapel? The Methodist Church. So, you're saying if they used a different tax status (btw, why do they need another tax status, they're a church), they wouldn't have to pay taxes? Sounds like a shell game to me.
 
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Re: Is atheism a religion

Who runs the facility, the chapel? The Methodist Church. So, you're saying if they used a different tax status (btw, why do they need another tax status, they're a church), they wouldn't have to pay taxes? Sounds like a shell game to me.

They had filed as a non-profit maintaining a publicly accessible facility. They were not. They had to change their non-profit status. That is not in any way preventing them from practicing their religion, which you have imagined is happening wide-spread in the US. It isn't. You should look for more honest information sources.
 
Re: Is atheism a religion

So, a state says a church is tax exempt to a certain point? Who or what determines that point? Why are state constitutions different than the US Constitution concerning churches and taxes?
 
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Re: Is atheism a religion

And still, if the Methodist Church in New Jersey would disregard their own canon and allow same-sex marriages, they'd get tax exempt status for the chapel that they maintain and operate. So, no state gov't is attempting to force The Methodist Church to behave in a certain way? Hum?

And, IMO, we are getting off the topic of the thread.
 
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Re: Is atheism a religion

And still, if the Methodist Church in New Jersey would disregard their own canon and allow same-sex marriages, they'd get tax exempt status for the chapel that they maintain and operate. So, no state gov't is attempting to force The Methodist Church to behave in a certain way? Hum?

And, IMO, we are getting off the topic of the thread.

So you reiterate your point then say we're off topic?

Well, either topic, that atheism is a religion and that the 1st Amendment allows for religious government have both been debunked to death, as has a variety of tertiary topics, such as the disinformed idea that there is wide spread religious persecution in the United States.
 
Re: Is atheism a religion

Seriously, why do you have such a hard on for Madison? Because he's the only one of the founding fathers you can make fit into your mold?


Actually, Cephus...cabse5 believes Madison was against "separation of church and state" and that sites, which he just posted one, has manipulated Madison's quotes to give us all the wrong opinion about Madison's true beliefs.

I argue the opposite. Madison was indeed in support for separation of church and state...despite being a religious person...but for a different reason than most would suspect.

Let me offer a bit of an article that gives one of the best explanations regarding Madison's views and beliefs. Oddly the article comes from the Wall St. Journal. The entire article is worth the read...and it isn't very long.

But Madison's most important contribution to religious freedom was not legislative, it was theoretical. It really was Madison who shaped the most holistic and effective theory of what religious freedom was and why we wanted it. For Jefferson, it was often about protecting the political system from religious interference.

Madison's emphasis was different. He believed that the main reason to have separation of church and state was to help religion. He came to this view in part because of an unusual but crucial alliance he built with evangelical Christians of his day. That's right. At that time, the evangelical Christians were the leading supporters of separation of church and state, and Madison was one of their greatest champions. They believed that not only was government repression bad but so was government help. Madison agreed and worked hand in hand with the evangelicals to press this point. In a crucial document called the Memorial and Remonstrance, Madison integrated the arguments of the Enlightenment intellectuals with the arguments of the evangelicals to create something much greater. Separating church and state would be better for both state and church.

This may be a concept that's a bit jarring to modern culture warriors. We've come to think that if you're pro religion you must surely want government to play a greater role in promoting religion. And if you're in favor of separation of church and state that you must want to reduce religion's role.

Madison and his evangelical allies had a completely different concept. They wanted to promote religion. They just believed that the best way to promote religion was for government to leave it alone.

Madison and Religious Freedom - WSJ.com
 
Re: Is atheism a religion

Who runs the facility, the chapel? The Methodist Church. So, you're saying if they used a different tax status (btw, why do they need another tax status, they're a church), they wouldn't have to pay taxes? Sounds like a shell game to me.

If all churches paid tax's there wouldnt have been any Jimmy Swaggarts or any of those other ****s.
 
Re: Is atheism a religion

Actually, Cephus...cabse5 believes Madison was against "separation of church and state" and that sites, which he just posted one, has manipulated Madison's quotes to give us all the wrong opinion about Madison's true beliefs.

I argue the opposite. Madison was indeed in support for separation of church and state...despite being a religious person...but for a different reason than most would suspect.

Let me offer a bit of an article that gives one of the best explanations regarding Madison's views and beliefs. Oddly the article comes from the Wall St. Journal. The entire article is worth the read...and it isn't very long.

Regardless, if someone picks one person out of a large group as the only representative of their views, then clearly they cannot find any of the rest of the group that agrees with them. 56 people signed the Declaration of Independence. How many of those can be demonstrated to agree with cabse5's assertions? One? Then the idea that the nation was founded on his ideas are demonstrably false.
 
Re: Is atheism a religion

At that time, the evangelical Christians were the leading supporters of separation of church and state, and Madison was one of their greatest champions. They believed that not only was government repression bad but so was government help.

That's the only sane view for religious people to take. It's funny. They completely and totally distrust the government. They want it out of education. They want it out of health care. They want it out of food and drug preparation. They want it out of Wall Street. They want it out of charity. But damn are they mad they can't get it into their churches.

Just nutso thinking.
 
Re: Is atheism a religion

Why do you assume that everyone must have a "belief system"?

Because they do. Some simply aren't self aware enough to realize it...
 
Re: Is atheism a religion

That's the only sane view for religious people to take. It's funny. They completely and totally distrust the government. They want it out of education. They want it out of health care. They want it out of food and drug preparation. They want it out of Wall Street. They want it out of charity. But damn are they mad they can't get it into their churches.

Just nutso thinking.

Oh no, they don't want the government in their churches but they sure do want their churches in the government!
 
Re: Is atheism a religion

Because they do. Some simply aren't self aware enough to realize it...

I believe in nothing, but I imagine you could call that a belief system.
 
Re: Is atheism a religion

Oh no, they don't want the government in their churches but they sure do want their churches in the government!

But there's no difference. When one group controls both government and religion, it doesn't matter if you call them Senator or Reverend. Either way, it's the government in the church, not the other way around. The church just becomes a propaganda tool for the government -- which, I suspect, is why the GOP is so hot for it.
 
Re: Is atheism a religion

But there's no difference. When one group controls both government and religion, it doesn't matter if you call them Senator or Reverend. Either way, it's the government in the church, not the other way around. The church just becomes a propaganda tool for the government -- which, I suspect, is why the GOP is so hot for it.

Actually, they want the government to be a propaganda tool for religion, pushing their religious agenda on everyone whether they like it or not. They don't want the government to tell the church what to do, they want the church to tell the government what to do. It's not the same thing at all.
 
Re: Is atheism a religion

I believe in nothing, but I imagine you could call that a belief system.

Yes. You're catching on marvelously...good show!
 
Re: Is atheism a religion

Actually, they want the government to be a propaganda tool for religion, pushing their religious agenda on everyone whether they like it or not. They don't want the government to tell the church what to do, they want the church to tell the government what to do. It's not the same thing at all.

That's what they want, and what they think they would get, but it's not what they would get at all. It would be a struggle for power. Two groups each wanting to be the dominant force in the arrangement. When they're co-mingled into one entity, one side or the other will run the show. It won't be any pious pastor. All that would happen is that the massive forces behind Washington corruption would be diverted into churches, and the churches wouldn't be able to resist the corruption any better than the Congress can. You'd just end up with preachers promoting the government's policy as being the policy of God, which is an extremely powerful tool for governments to have. They may think they would get something else, but they wouldn't. They would just get a church that's exactly as corrupt as Congress is, because they would effectively be the same thing.

Right now Senators decide what the Government will do, so irresistible forces of corruption guide the Senate. Make it preachers, and the same thing would happen. It would just end up making church a weekly propaganda session for the same parties that now control Congress.
 
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