• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

When will social conservatives reorient to focus on integrating gays into families?

Re: When will social conservatives reorient to focus on integrating gays into familie

So, what you are really asking is how long is it until we have total anarchy? How long until nobody gives a damn about anything at all anymore?

For some reason, I think the Government will continue to exist with gay marriage. I could be wrong though, and prohibition of gay marriage could be the only thing between us and Somalia. I somehow doubt it though.
 
Re: When will social conservatives reorient to focus on integrating gays into familie

What I said was absolutely true,

No. It is is not, as I enumerated forms of property which can't be passed down from one gay partner to another regardless of whether there is a will or not.

We do not have to do anything of the sort. I do not recognise them as equal, nor will they ever be, sorry. I am not going to lie, am not going to just bow to that whim either. The marriages you referenced were all between one man and one woman... you have no idea what your system that you say does no damage will do...not one iota of information but yet we are just to go ahead and do it because who, you? say its fine? It is screwing up kids minds right now, all this confusion you folk sew, all the misery so that a few can be content for a few moments... sorry, your gimme gimmee I want I want childishness of your political persuasion has to grow up someday.

This is that day.

Okay there Eragon, listen - it's this simple. Tell me which part of society would change if gays were recognized as being legally married? Which part of our bureaucracy? If you can't, you're just making things up to fit an rabidly homophobic agenda. :shrug:
 
Re: When will social conservatives reorient to focus on integrating gays into familie

I see that social conservatives in this thread are deliberately misrepresenting my position, which is: that it would be more profitable, both politically and programmatically, for social conservatives to emphasize a monogamous relationship structure for straights and gays alike, and to fight promiscuity by both, than to continue trying to exclude one from the family social form.

Well, I may or may not be a social Conservative, since I don't care-a-wit if gays get married. I also have gay members of my family and they are treated just like any other member of the family. My family being a tad dysfunctional means that they not get treated all that peachy, but it has nothing to do with being gay.
 
Re: When will social conservatives reorient to focus on integrating gays into familie

In Louisiana, no married couple--gay or straight--has that protection.

That is entirely false. Read up on usufruct. If you die in Lousiana, your surviving spouse has rights to the house until they die. Furthermore, the state assumes that with married couples, the surviving spouse gets the house if there are no children. So in essence, gay couples that aren't married, and want to be, have to do more in other to get the same protections that the state assumes for straight couples.
 
Re: When will social conservatives reorient to focus on integrating gays into familie

That is entirely false. Read up on usufruct. If you die in Lousiana, your surviving spouse has rights to the house until they die. Furthermore, the state assumes that with married couples, the surviving spouse gets the house if there are no children. So in essence, gay couples that aren't married, and want to be, have to do more in other to get the same protections that the state assumes for straight couples.

No, they don't. I've already had a parent die, in Louisiana, so I have a little more experience with it than you.
 
Re: When will social conservatives reorient to focus on integrating gays into familie

Changing all of society would mean requiring all married couple to have wills, should they want to leave their possesions to their spouse.
What is being proposed is not changing all of society, it is allowing more couples to be apart of society. I do appreciate your empathetic outllook though. I can only assume you are not Christian.

No, your assumption is right, I am not Christian, I am of no religion... just a historian and political scientist. I don't have empathy for drug addicts either. Nor women who choose the wrong men to have children with, nor people who make no effort in school but do not graduate with any skills and want us to take care of them. I do not expect I will change society just for them to feel as if they fit in either, they need to make efforts to fit into society, or they can deal with it if not.

Your other statement is false. One man one woman is the way our society has always been. It has worked for us up to this point rather well, we are prosperous, we have, until lately, been strong in spirit and allegiance to the great ideals of the founding of this country. You want that we experiment, that we risk it all so you can feel accepted by those who are similarly liberal on social issues. Sorry, I am stronger than that, won't be cowed by your little attempt nor by your obvious lack of sapience and good judgement.
 
Re: When will social conservatives reorient to focus on integrating gays into familie

I meant to post "family structures", as even the most dispossessed homosexual has a biological family, but I reached the cut-off point.

My question is pretty simple: how long will it take until socially conservative mass movements, no longer strictly bound to the Baby Boomer literalist evangelism that has defined them for four decades, accept gay marriage (and a gay family unit that exists in precisely mirrored fashion to the heterosexual family) as part of their rhetoric?
Hopefully never, but for sure never in my circles.
 
Re: When will social conservatives reorient to focus on integrating gays into familie

What you said isn't reality at all.

And yes you're free to speak, no matter how ignorant the speaking is, and no one says otherwise. However, everyone is free to tell you just how wrong you are. It's how it works.

How are they going to say I am wrong, or that my view of future reality is wrong...they are not prophets and neither are you. You lefties have brought so much misery to the world and you do not even know it... study your history man, study... ignorance is a word you bandy about, and yet your prove no knowledge of the past, you show no sapience, no understanding of the unintended consequences to your thoughtless actions as we go forward...
 
Re: When will social conservatives reorient to focus on integrating gays into familie

No, they don't. I've already had a parent die, in Louisiana, so I have a little more experience with it than you.

Usufruct, Surviving Spouse (Louisiana) Law & Legal Definition

Usufruct of Surviving Spouse Article 890 said:
If the deceased spouse is survived by descendants, the surviving spouse shall have a usufruct over the decedent’s share of the community property to the extent that the decedent has not disposed of it by testatement. This usufruct terminates when the surviving spouse dies or remarries, whichever occurs first.

Usufruct to Surviving Spouse.Article 1499 said:
“The decedent may grant a usufruct to the surviving spouse over all or part of his property, including the forced portion, and may grant the usufructurary the power to dispose of nonconsumables as provided in the law of usufruct. The usufruct shall be for life unless expressly designated for a shorter period.”

Again, this is a protection granted ONLY to married straight couples and NOT available to gay couples because they are barred from getting married.

Conclusion: You once again prove you have absolutely no idea what it is you're talking about.
 
Re: When will social conservatives reorient to focus on integrating gays into familie

Usufruct, Surviving Spouse (Louisiana) Law & Legal Definition





Again, this is a protection granted ONLY to married straight couples and NOT available to gay couples because they are barred from getting married.

Conclusion: You once again prove you have absolutely no idea what it is you're talking about.

You didn't even read what you posted. Did you?
 
Re: When will social conservatives reorient to focus on integrating gays into familie

How are they going to say I am wrong, or that my view of future reality is wrong...they are not prophets and neither are you. You lefties have brought so much misery to the world and you do not even know it... study your history man, study... ignorance is a word you bandy about, and yet your prove no knowledge of the past, you show no sapience, no understanding of the unintended consequences to your thoughtless actions as we go forward...

Same answer I gave someone else: I'm a reasonable and intelligent person. But predicting the future isn't what you did, and isn't what I'm replying to. You said A meant B, and factually it doesn't.
 
Re: When will social conservatives reorient to focus on integrating gays into familie

You didn't even read what you posted. Did you?

Here it is in simple terms for you:

What is a Usufruct? Usufructs and Naked Ownership Under Louisiana Law

A surviving spouse has a usufruct over any community property inherited by a deceased spouse’s descendants under Louisiana intestate law;
A deceased person’s surviving parents have a usufruct over any separate property of a deceased person who doesn’t have descendants when that property is inherited by the decedent’s siblings under Louisiana intestate law; and
Parents of minor children have a usufruct over any property inherited by the child (but not over property received by lifetime gift).

A usufructuary can use, possess, and administer the property, as well as collect the income, utility, profits, and other advantages produced from the property. When the usufruct ends, however, the surviving spouse will need to account to the naked owners for use of the assets.

Again, this is ASSUMED BY THE STATE upon death, something which is NOT done for gay couples because under LA state law, can't get married - is a direct refutation of this statement:

A will is still required to leave your spouse your belongings;

Are you for real?
 
Re: When will social conservatives reorient to focus on integrating gays into familie

For some reason, I think the Government will continue to exist with gay marriage. I could be wrong though, and prohibition of gay marriage could be the only thing between us and Somalia. I somehow doubt it though.

Its not just gay marriage, its the blizzard like onslaught of such unreflected change to society...

In my opinion humans can only withstand and adapt to so much change. With much of this change being counterproductive, the strain is greater....this desire to be anti all that has gone before and that has withstood the tests of time, well... I for one am glad I am getting older and hope the whole thing that is surely gonna collapse, does so after I go. I will fight it to the end as I have a debt of gratitude to those who can before and want to pay it forward for our posterity. I was given much having hit the lottery just by being born in this still great country... but the generation before and my generation have done great damage to this place and I feel sorry for those having to come up in the future very uncertain years...
 
Re: When will social conservatives reorient to focus on integrating gays into familie

Here it is in simple terms for you:

What is a Usufruct? Usufructs and Naked Ownership Under Louisiana Law



Again, this is ASSUMED BY THE STATE upon death, something which is NOT done for gay couples because under LA state law, can't get married - is a direct refutation of this statement:



Are you for real?

This is from your first source.

“The decedent may grant a usufruct to the surviving spouse over all or part of his property, including the forced portion, and may grant the usufructurary the power to dispose of nonconsumables as provided in the law of usufruct.

You posted it and didn't actually comprehend it. Not me.
 
Re: When will social conservatives reorient to focus on integrating gays into familie

So, what you are really asking is how long is it until we have total anarchy? How long until nobody gives a damn about anything at all anymore?

No, not anything. If everything to you is based on the relationship gay people have with their children, and that relationship being legitimized legally leads to anarchy, I fear you have jumped into the deep end.
 
Re: When will social conservatives reorient to focus on integrating gays into familie

This is from your first source.

You posted it and didn't actually comprehend it. Not me.

Yes, but usufruct is ASSUMED for MARRIED couples upon decease of a partner. Which is (for the 5th time) not available to gay people as they can not get married in the first place. What that part of the statement says is that the extent of the usufruct can also be determined by the partner beforehand. Are you seriously not comprehending this?

I just posted 2 different links which directly contradict your statement that a will is required in LA in order for one partner to have rights over another's property. The law already assumes that when 1 person dies, their spouse will get usufruct over the other's domain. Furthermore it states that a partner can determine usufruct beforehand.
 
Re: When will social conservatives reorient to focus on integrating gays into familie

Yes, but usufruct is ASSUMED for MARRIED couples upon decease of a partner. Which is (for the 5th time) not available to gay people as they can not get married in the first place. What that part of the statement says is that the extent of the usufruct can also be determined by the partner beforehand. Are you seriously not comprehending this?

No, it's not.

Again, you posted it yourself:

The decedent may grant a usufruct to the surviving spouse over all or part of his property, including the forced portion, and may grant the usufructurary the power to dispose of nonconsumables as provided in the law of usufruct.

Not my fault that you can't read your own information.
 
Re: When will social conservatives reorient to focus on integrating gays into familie

Its not just gay marriage, its the blizzard like onslaught of such unreflected change to society...

In my opinion humans can only withstand and adapt to so much change. With much of this change being counterproductive, the strain is greater....this desire to be anti all that has gone before and that has withstood the tests of time, well... I for one am glad I am getting older and hope the whole thing that is surely gonna collapse, does so after I go. I will fight it to the end as I have a debt of gratitude to those who can before and want to pay it forward for our posterity. I was given much having hit the lottery just by being born in this still great country... but the generation before and my generation have done great damage to this place and I feel sorry for those having to come up in the future very uncertain years...

I think you are blowing this way out of proportion. There isn't any huge change involved in society to accept gay people as normal. It's a minor adjustment. Gay people have always existed, and official oppression against them has been neutralized. All that remains is that people let go of prejudices. Our country is great for this. I am not so bleak in my outlook of our notion's future. I think the best times are yet to come. All times are uncertain.
 
Re: When will social conservatives reorient to focus on integrating gays into familie

When "social conservatives" actually start caring about strong families again.
 
Re: When will social conservatives reorient to focus on integrating gays into familie

No, it's not.

Again, you posted it yourself:

Not my fault that you can't read your own information.

Apdst, you jut got caught making things up and are now trying to weasel yourself out of it by purposely twisting the information to actually fit your already false statement:

What is a Usufruct? Usufructs and Naked Ownership Under Louisiana Law

A surviving spouse has a usufruct over any community property inherited by a deceased spouse’s descendants under Louisiana intestate law

Here it is again explained by a Lousiana law firm:

Your Louisiana Usufruct Rights Explained | Chris Kane's Louisiana Estate Planning Blog

May 9, 2012

Here in Louisiana, we have a unique form of property ownership known as a Usufruct. A usufruct is an ownership right in property that allows the owner to “use” and profit from the property, however a usufruct cannot determine what happens to property after termination of the usufruct right. Usufructs are seen most often between spouses when one spouse passes away. With a usufruct, the surviving spouse has the right to use the deceased spouses property for the remainder of their lives or until they get remarried depending on the circumstances. After the surviving spouse dies, the property subject to usufruct then passes automatically to individuals known as the “naked owners” (children of the deceased are most often the naked owners of property subject to usufruct).

A usufruct can be left to a surviving spouse as a part of your will or it may be through intestacy if you pass away without a will.

Again, this is NOT available to gay couples as they CAN'T GET MARRIED. Are you for real?
 
Re: When will social conservatives reorient to focus on integrating gays into familie

No. It is is not, as I enumerated forms of property which can't be passed down from one gay partner to another regardless of whether there is a will or not.
Dude, go back and read your first post to me, you didn't say all forms of property, you said they could not leave behind property [ and they most certainly could leave behind property in a will, undeniable] ... so listen or read what you said, I responded to that. Can't you follow your own posts?



Okay there Eragon, listen - it's this simple. Tell me which part of society would change if gays were recognized as being legally married? Which part of our bureaucracy? If you can't, you're just making things up to fit an rabidly homophobic agenda. :shrug:

Get your head out of your butt, boy. Churches are already changing to accommodate this agenda. In Canada, where its legal, churches are stepping on eggshells preaching the gospel that its a sin, an abomination for man to lie with man. The Boy Scouts caved to the pressure, people in states where gay marriage is not even legal are being successfully sued if they decline to say, photograph the wedding [not legal] of a gay couple. You heterophobes are quite getting quite cheeky nowadays, not bright, just cheeky. Which is why we can face you with great disdain, a shame and stain on society.
 
Re: When will social conservatives reorient to focus on integrating gays into familie

No, not anything. If everything to you is based on the relationship gay people have with their children, and that relationship being legitimized legally leads to anarchy, I fear you have jumped into the deep end.

Listen, we already had this battle previously, you lost and could not handle it before, so not gonna rock your dainty little boat again for fear you would capsize and drown in a sea of puppy dog tears...
 
Re: When will social conservatives reorient to focus on integrating gays into familie

I think you are blowing this way out of proportion. There isn't any huge change involved in society to accept gay people as normal. It's a minor adjustment. Gay people have always existed, and official oppression against them has been neutralized. All that remains is that people let go of prejudices. Our country is great for this. I am not so bleak in my outlook of our notion's future. I think the best times are yet to come. All times are uncertain.

Gay people need to adjust to normal society, not the other way around. If you don't get just the efficiency of that, well...
 
Re: When will social conservatives reorient to focus on integrating gays into familie

Unfortunately, the old gay liberationists/ActUP/queer politics folks of the 1970s through the 1990s have conceded defeat. All they want now is to get married and grow conservative. No anarchy to be had, alas.

Back during the 70's all they wanted was for the sodemy laws to be abolished. That's all they wanted.

BS, Give them an inch and they want the whole nine yards.
 
Re: When will social conservatives reorient to focus on integrating gays into familie

Listen, we already had this battle previously, you lost and could not handle it before, so not gonna rock your dainty little boat again for fear you would capsize and drown in a sea of puppy dog tears...

Your weak ego aside, gay people doing what they've always done isn't a change. it may threaten your fragile world but it's not a change.
 
Back
Top Bottom