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Do you support school uniforms?

What is your stance on School Uniforms?

  • Yes and the school should offer them at no extra cost.

    Votes: 20 18.3%

  • Yes and the parents should pay for them.

    Votes: 40 36.7%

  • They should be optional for students who want them

    Votes: 2 1.8%

  • There should be school uniforms for specific activities only

    Votes: 3 2.8%

  • We should leave it to the parents to decide if the school should have uniforms

    Votes: 10 9.2%

  • We should leave it at municipal/state level

    Votes: 10 9.2%

  • We shouldn't have school uniforms at all

    Votes: 24 22.0%

  • I like the current way things are.

    Votes: 5 4.6%

  • I hate uniforms

    Votes: 9 8.3%

  • I'm a potato.

    Votes: 13 11.9%
  • Total voters
    109
Is there a dress code for young people in high school who just want a part-time job when interviewing and then working? How about when they graduate from college et al goes for an interview? Do you believe in the new service requirements for high school graduation?
vesper said:
A dress code isn't the way the real world operates and a concern of all educators should be to prepare a student for the real world. Whether you accept it or not, school uniforms
diminish free expression in our youth at a time when young people are trying desperately to establish who they are as an individual. There's no shortage of collectivist thinkers in academia. They tend to go hand in hand these days. So something like the importance of individuality goes over your head. That is why your support as an educator for forced uniforms doesn't come as any surprise. For it is a stellar example of collectivism. Unfortunately collectivism produces followers not leaders. Pity you don't want to take the effort to nurture and encourage individuality for that is where leaders and innovators arise.
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vesper said:
A dress code isn't the way the real world operates and a concern of all educators should be to prepare a student for the real world...
Click to expand...

Really? You mean the "real world" of McDonald's and other fast food chain uniforms? Or the buiness "real world" of suits and ties, and business dress for ladies? Perhaps you mean the "real world" of military service? Or the "real world" of law enforcement? Don't forget the "real world" of security guards or 7-11 employees. How many more "real worlds" do I need to point out? LOL

If you think adults who don't work at "Hot Topic" don't deal with uniformity of apparel, you have another Think coming. ;)
 
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vesper said:
A dress code isn't the way the real world operates and a concern of all educators should be to prepare a student for the real world. Whether you accept it or not, school uniforms
diminish free expression in our youth at a time when young people are trying desperately to establish who they are as an individual. There's no shortage of collectivist thinkers in academia. They tend to go hand in hand these days. So something like the importance of individuality goes over your head. That is why your support as an educator for forced uniforms doesn't come as any surprise. For it is a stellar example of collectivism. Unfortunately collectivism produces followers not leaders. Pity you don't want to take the effort to nurture and encourage individuality for that is where leaders and innovators arise.
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Right... it is a pity that I don't encourage individuality, you got me. :roll:

I'll as you the same thing I asked Henrin before he ran away. If you can come up with a logical, decent argument I might take you seriously. We will see...

Originally Posted by Bodhisattva
Explain how a uniform is more oppressive or any different than telling a kid what time to be in class, where to sit in class, when they are allowed to talk, to stay in for lunch detention, when they can text, when they can open their book or write, etc. You have no argument bro... just get the hell over it.
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Good luck trying to wiggle your way out of this one...
 
Captain Adverse said:
Really? You mean the "real world" of McDonald's and other fast food chain uniforms? Or the buiness "real world" of suits and ties, and business dress for ladies? Perhaps you mean the "real world" of military service? Or the "real world" of law enforcement? Don't forget the "real world" of security guards or 7-11 employees. How many real worlds do I need to point out? LOL

If you think adults who don't work at "Hot Topic" don't deal with uniformity of apparel, you have another Think coming. ;)
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And now you beat me to this response! :lol:

This perfectly fits my question to them as posted in my above post. Also, the "real world" of having to be on time, work on projects that you are told you have to do, when you can eat lunch, work where they tell you to sit, not interrupt the boss while he is talking... etc. and as you state, wear a uniform at at least dress the part. Well said Captain.
 
Bodhisattva said:
And now you beat me to this response! :lol:

This perfectly fits my question to them as posted in my above post. Also, the "real world" of having to be on time, work on projects that you are told you have to do, when you can eat lunch, work where they tell you to sit, not interrupt the boss while he is talking... etc. and as you state, wear a uniform at at least dress the part. Well said Captain.
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I know he quoted you, but it was such a juicy bait I just HAD to respond!! LOL Sowwie. ;)
 
vesper said:
A dress code isn't the way the real world operates and a concern of all educators should be to prepare a student for the real world.
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Whevever I've worked, there has been a dress code. Dress codes are the way the "real world" operates. And many employees wear a uniform or a "uniform."

I think the primary purpose of teachers is to teach. Call me "old-fashioned." I never needed others to do any more than to encourage my kids to learn and to be kind and supportive of them.

vesper said:
Whether you accept it or not, school uniforms diminish free expression in our youth at a time when young people are trying desperately to establish who they are as an individual. .
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I really don't give much of crap about kids' freedom of expression sartorially in the classroom; they have after school and weekends to "express" themselves. What they need to be doing in school is learning.

vesper said:
There's no shortage of collectivist thinkers in academia. They tend to go hand in hand these days. So something like the importance of individuality goes over your head.
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That's quite a generalization. Could you provide some examples of collectivist thinkers in academia please?

vesper said:
That is why your support as an educator for forced uniforms doesn't come as any surprise. For it is a stellar example of collectivism. Unfortunately collectivism produces followers not leaders. Pity you don't want to take the effort to nurture and encourage individuality for that is where leaders and innovators arise.
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Oh, good heavenly days. School uniforms are a "stellar example of collectivism"? Yikes.

In my experience it's much easier to nurture and inspire when there is focus (and also a desire to learn, sigh, but never mind about that).
 
Captain Adverse said:
Is it really the kids expression you are worried about? Or could it possibly be the thrill YOU get buying them stuff to impress their freinds with? LOL
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Well..

I have already made decisions on what my child is allowed to wear and what she is not and I don't need the government undermining my parenting decisions and frankly insulting me by saying they don't approve of them. The shorts I allow her to wear might be shorter than they allow and to be perfectly blunt I never asked for their opinion and my daughter doesn't need their approval on if her shorts are long enough. I might very well have different ideas on what I find acceptable than what complete strangers find acceptable and their opinion means nothing to me. The sooner they stop throwing their opinion in areas that they are not asked to have one the better.

She wants to express herself and one such outlet is through clothing and someone that understands the importance of being yourself and establishing who you are as a person I support her desire to do so. I don't stand against uniforms for me, but for children that simply want to express themselves for who they are. There is nothing wrong with having more money than other people or being more popular than someone else and I'm not going to humor the idea that there is. So my child has nice clothes and some other kid doesn't, so what. That is just life. I'm not going to lose sleep over that other kid and I'm not going to support restricting the expression of my girl because of it.
 
Captain Adverse said:
Really? You mean the "real world" of McDonald's and other fast food chain uniforms? Or the buiness "real world" of suits and ties, and business dress for ladies? Perhaps you mean the "real world" of military service? Or the "real world" of law enforcement? Don't forget the "real world" of security guards or 7-11 employees. How many real worlds do I need to point out? LOL

If you think adults who don't work at "Hot Topic" don't deal with uniformity of apparel, you have another Think coming. ;)
Click to expand...

All the examples you quoted involve a person having a choice to choose a profession that involves wearing a uniform. Yes choice, an individual decision. Business dress is not a uniform but a reasonable dress code. Big difference.
 
vesper said:
All the examples you quoted involve a person having a choice to choose a profession that involves wearing a uniform. Yes choice, an individual decision. Business dress is not a uniform but a reasonable dress code. Big difference.
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Children are not adults. Do you understand the difference? Henrin doesn't. If a kid wants to wear something that their parent doesn't want them to wear, guess what? The kid is being oppressed and **** out of luck. No individuality. Oppression. Deal with the facts and stop trying to create some dreamland children's utopia where they have these mythical rights of individuality.
 
Henrin said:
Well..

I have already made decisions on what my child is allowed to wear and what she is not and I don't need the government undermining my parenting decisions and frankly insulting me by saying they don't approve of them. The shorts I allow her to wear might be shorter than they allow and to be perfectly blunt I never asked for their opinion and my daughter doesn't need their approval on if her shorts are long enough. I might very well have different ideas on what I find acceptable than what complete strangers find acceptable and their opinion means nothing to me. The sooner they stop throwing their opinion in areas that they are not asked to have one the better.

She wants to express herself and one such outlet is through clothing and someone that understands the importance of being yourself and establishing who you are as a person I support her desire to do so. I don't stand against uniforms for me, but for children that simply want to express themselves for who they are. There is nothing wrong with having more money than other people or being more popular than someone else and I'm not going to humor the idea that there is. So my child has nice clothes and some other kid doesn't, so what. That is just life. I'm not going to lose sleep over that other kid and I'm not going to support restricting the expression of my girl because of it.
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IMO the problem lies in your thinking that your child's clothing expression is the most important form when she is attending school. Perhaps you need a better grasp of what the educational system was set up for, since you keep ignoring all the examples of student expression that have nothing to to with clothing. You also keep ignoring the primary purpose of school, unless your child is going to secondary school at the Fashion Institute...in that case who cares? LOL
 
vesper said:
All the examples you quoted involve a person having a choice to choose a profession that involves wearing a uniform. Yes choice, an individual decision. Business dress is not a uniform but a reasonable dress code. Big difference.
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Let's see...how do I answer........

Bodhisattva said:
Children are not adults. Do you understand the difference? Henrin doesn't. If a kid wants to wear something that their parent doesn't want them to wear, guess what? The kid is being oppressed and **** out of luck. No individuality. Oppression. Deal with the facts and stop trying to create some dreamland children's utopia where they have these mythical rights of individuality.
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What he said... :agree
 
Henrin said:
Well..

I have already made decisions on what my child is allowed to wear and what she is not and I don't need the government undermining my parenting decisions and frankly insulting me by saying they don't approve of them. The shorts I allow her to wear might be shorter than they allow and to be perfectly blunt I never asked for their opinion and my daughter doesn't need their approval on if her shorts are long enough. I might very well have different ideas on what I find acceptable than what complete strangers find acceptable and their opinion means nothing to me. The sooner they stop throwing their opinion in areas that they are not asked to have one the better.

She wants to express herself and one such outlet is through clothing and someone that understands the importance of being yourself and establishing who you are as a person I support her desire to do so. I don't stand against uniforms for me, but for children that simply want to express themselves for who they are. There is nothing wrong with having more money than other people or being more popular than someone else and I'm not going to humor the idea that there is. So my child has nice clothes and some other kid doesn't, so what. That is just life. I'm not going to lose sleep over that other kid and I'm not going to support restricting the expression of my girl because of it.
Click to expand...

So you cherry pick one line out of his response and don't even bother to respond to mine that puts the hammer down on your argument? How intellectual dishonest of you. But that was expected, really.
 
Henrin said:
Well..

I have already made decisions on what my child is allowed to wear and what she is not and I don't need the government undermining my parenting decisions and frankly insulting me by saying they don't approve of them. The shorts I allow her to wear might be shorter than they allow and to be perfectly blunt I never asked for their opinion and my daughter doesn't need their approval on if her shorts are long enough. I might very well have different ideas on what I find acceptable than what complete strangers find acceptable and their opinion means nothing to me. The sooner they stop throwing their opinion in areas that they are not asked to have one the better.

She wants to express herself and one such outlet is through clothing and someone that understands the importance of being yourself and establishing who you are as a person I support her desire to do so. I don't stand against uniforms for me, but for children that simply want to express themselves for who they are. There is nothing wrong with having more money than other people or being more popular than someone else and I'm not going to humor the idea that there is. So my child has nice clothes and some other kid doesn't, so what. That is just life. I'm not going to lose sleep over that other kid and I'm not going to support restricting the expression of my girl because of it.
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Amen. There are a lot of parents out there that feel the same. They are against school uniforms because it's more government employed elites who think they know whats best, less freedom, less individual decision-making. Most folks fully support reasonable dress codes. However since this debate over mandatory uniforms in public schools has been raging for over a decade, it is clear the majority are keeping them out of their school districts. Cheers!
 
Captain Adverse said:
Let's see...how do I answer........



What he said... :agree
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A parent's rules over their children are one thing....... a pinheaded government employee making such calls is altogether something else.
 
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vesper said:
All the examples you quoted involve a person having a choice to choose a profession that involves wearing a uniform. Yes choice, an individual decision. Business dress is not a uniform but a reasonable dress code. Big difference.
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And you won't answer my question either... you are both intellectual cowards. Lame.
 
vesper said:
A parent's rules over their children are one thing....... a pinheaded government employee making such calls is altogether something else.
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Gee, and you completely overlooked all the school rules that parents have no say over that Bodhisattva listed, didn't you? Your strongest response is a personal attack too.

IMO, when people stop responding to the issue and turn to personal attacks or other fallacious arguments...it's because they don't really have any valid argument in the first place.

Thanks for proving my point. :)
 
Bodhisattva said:
So you cherry pick one line out of his response and don't even bother to respond to mine that puts the hammer down on your argument? How intellectual dishonest of you. But that was expected, really.
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What hammer? The school governing the operations of the school has no bearing on my case. Did it ever cross your mind that I ignored your post because it was irreverent?
 
Captain Adverse said:
IMO the problem lies in your thinking that your child's clothing expression is the most important form when she is attending school. Perhaps you need a better grasp of what the educational system was set up for, since you keep ignoring all the examples of student expression that have nothing to to with clothing. You also keep ignoring the primary purpose of school, unless your child is going to secondary school at the Fashion Institute...in that case who cares? LOL
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I don't value one more than the other actually. I just find it unacceptable to undermine my decisions I made for my child and to remove completely her freedom of expression. She has agreed to my choices and accepts my guidance, but you, I don't remember giving you a say on what she can wear and she doesn't want to wear your uniform. Back off.
 
Captain Adverse said:
Gee, and you completely overlooked all the school rules that parents have no say over that Bodhisattva listed, didn't you? Your strongest response is a personal attack too.

IMO, when people stop responding to the issue and turn to personal attacks or other fallacious arguments...it's because they don't really have any valid argument in the first place.

Thanks for proving my point. :)
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Bodhisattva didn't make a valid point that warranted a response. because whether you recognize it or not, parents still have a say on any matter that goes on in their school districts. And when the majority reaches whatever direction in which to proceed is how things will be. My argument is only fallacious to you because you do not agree with it. But fortunately across this country more agree with me than they do with you for if they would be agreeing with you there would more schools mandating forced uniforms.
 
vesper said:
Bodhisattva didn't make a valid point that warranted a response. because whether you recognize it or not, parents still have a say on any matter that goes on in their school districts. And when the majority reaches whatever direction in which to proceed is how things will be. My argument is only fallacious to you because you do not agree with it. But fortunately across this country more agree with me than they do with you for if they would be agreeing with you there would more schools mandating forced uniforms.
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here, the principal makes the decision for his/her school. they can choose to listen to or ignore parental in this matter of uniforms/dress codes
 
vesper said:
All the examples you quoted involve a person having a choice to choose a profession that involves wearing a uniform. Yes choice, an individual decision. Business dress is not a uniform but a reasonable dress code. Big difference.
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The big difference is between what you say here and what you said previously: "A dress code isn't the way the real world operates."
 
nota bene said:
The big difference is between what you say here and what you said previously: "A dress code isn't the way the real world operates."
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Nota Bene, I could have done a better job of choosing my words. What I was trying to address is people in a free society dress the way they would like to. Especially in America, the melting pot, we have all manner of dress that originates from our cultural differences. Those from a Muslim background require head coverings for women. Those of Jewish background require the wearing of a yamaka during their holy days for males. An evangelical Christain may find the need to wear a tee shirt that quotes Scripture. Freedom of expressing any religion is often removed when mandatory uniforms are required. Also any political thought is removed as well. Whether it be a student sporting a Che tee shirt or a student wearing something like a 2nd Amendment right supporting the NRA. These beliefs especially from middle school up whether you agree with them or not are part of this individual trying to find himself among a smorgasbord of choicesl.

I thought we were supposed to be inclusive, accepting and tolerant. Forcing uniforms on students denies them their individualism.
 
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This whole argument, and a lot more like it, show one thing:
Not all schools should be alike. Not all kids are alike.
Parents should be able to choose their kids' schools from a variety of real choices. Schools should be able to set their own standards of achievement and behavior. Top down management, every school the same, choices made in the offices of bureaucrats, all that has to go. It is un american, inefficient, and unworkable.

Imagine if you had to shop in the supermarket in your neighborhood, and were not allowed to travel to another. Just think what that would do with choice and with competition. It's just not the way we should be organizing our schools.

Uniforms? Sure, here in this school. You don't like uniforms? Try the guys down the block. They don't require them.
 
Dittohead not! said:
This whole argument, and a lot more like it, show one thing:
Not all schools should be alike. Not all kids are alike.
Parents should be able to choose their kids' schools from a variety of real choices. Schools should be able to set their own standards of achievement and behavior. Top down management, every school the same, choices made in the offices of bureaucrats, all that has to go. It is un american, inefficient, and unworkable.

Imagine if you had to shop in the supermarket in your neighborhood, and were not allowed to travel to another. Just think what that would do with choice and with competition. It's just not the way we should be organizing our schools.

Uniforms? Sure, here in this school. You don't like uniforms? Try the guys down the block. They don't require them.
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I agree as long as that is the case. But further down the road since our public education system is so reliant on the great and omnipotent Federal government.....you know how that carrot on a stick thing works where the Federal government sends the needed monies as long as the state complies with their wishes. Well all it is going to take is another progressive to implement mandatory uniforms from a federal level. Then what are you going to do? Homeschool?
 
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