Do you support school uniforms?

Rainman05 said:

I think they're a great idea for most schools.

They boost integration and respect and I also think they should be free of charge for the parents initially. Each student should have 3 (random number > 1) school uniforms given by the school at the sizes of the student and if the parents want additional school uniforms, they should pay for them.

So what do you think?

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Only at schools where the parents decide that they want them for their children.

Oh wait, the parents' opinion doesn't matter. I forgot.

phattonez said:

Only at schools where the parents decide that they want them for their children.

Oh wait, the parents' opinion doesn't matter. I forgot.

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He didn't say he wanted them mandated, he just thought that it was a good idea.

Anagram said:

He didn't say he wanted them mandated, he just thought that it was a good idea.

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It's a good idea if the parents want it for their kids. I'd want them for my kids, only so that my kids aren't looking like slackers, but it's not for me to decide for other parents.

phattonez said:

It's a good idea if the parents want it for their kids. I'd want them for my kids, only so that my kids aren't looking like slackers, but it's not for me to decide for other parents.

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I agree, I just don't think that's what he was saying. I think he was just saying it was a good idea in the same way that brushing your teeth regularly is a good idea. It's probably something that should be done, but not something that should be forced on people.

Red_Dave said:

Look at a school with a uniform on non-uniform day and you have the best argument against uniforms.

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I've been in that situation. People look scummy; it's embarrassing.

I have both not worn/worn school uniforms and my kids both wore/didn’t wear uniforms. Of course, I hated wearing a uniform for a bit; I was all about styles…and boys…and dressing competitively—in other words, an ordinary teenage girl. Which is how I ended up attending a private school and wearing a uniform. Once I settled in, I thought uniforms were great because I never had to think again for school about what I was going to wear. More money for cool clothes for my social life outside of school too. (My mean parents didn’t give me an allowance, and so I always had a part-time job.)

As a mom, uniforms were absolutely fantastic. No morning drama, at least not over clothes. And my kids’ uniforms were good-looking, affordable by anybody, and recycled through the school too, especially the stuff with the school emblem. Khakis or navy chinos and white, navy, or red shirts.

Uniforms solve a lot of problems. I think they improving the learning environment, which is, after all, the main point of schooling...learning.

Here’s an article on an economics prof’s study of the impact of uniforms on student behavior and learning, including improved retention rates: University of Houston News: UH Study Suggests School Uniforms Reduce Student Absences, Disciplinary Problems

StillBallin75 said:

From my perspective I'd say no. In most cases uniforms are butt-ugly, but my main opposition to it is basically taking away a medium of individual expression which can spark debates and discussion.

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Part of the current school discipline problem is all of that individual expression. The use of uniforms places more emphasis on discipline, aids in security and keeps parents from wasting money making their kids look "cool". With poor and rich kids dressed alike, there is less social stigma from being from a lower income household.

phattonez said:

I've been in that situation. People look scummy; it's embarrassing.

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Well I've found people were a lot more chilled out, a lot less disruptive etc. and actually learnt a lot more. Furthermore the teachers got to spend less time being anal about the uniforms and more time actually teaching.

Rainman05 said:

I think they're a great idea for most schools.

They boost integration and respect and I also think they should be free of charge for the parents initially. Each student should have 3 (random number > 1) school uniforms given by the school at the sizes of the student and if the parents want additional school uniforms, they should pay for them.

So what do you think?

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Heya RM. :2wave: I am all for them. Violence in our schools dropped some with the Kids going to Uniforms. Plus it stops them from wearing clothes associated to Gangs. Moreover it helps parents in the longrun too. Saves them on the kids clothes they buy from getting messed up with wearing whatever to school.

I also think their Coats for Winter Weather should be used.

Course I went sent to a Military School. So I was more use to having a Uniform. Albeit Military style.

Positives about uniforms:
1. Kids don't have to wear the high price brand names to be accepted.
2. No gang clothes.
3. No playing games with how short the shorts or skirts can be.
4. They're cheaper in the long run than buying school clothes.
5. They look better than most of the outfits kids put together for themselves.

Kids should be required to wear a school uniform. Parents should buy them, just as they buy (or should buy) school clothes for their kids anyway.

Further, there should be no attendance boundaries. Uniforms should be a part of the requirements that students have to meet to attend the school of their parent's choice, right along with keeping their grades up and staying out of trouble.

ttwtt78640 said:

Part of the current school discipline problem is all of that individual expression. The use of uniforms places more emphasis on discipline, aids in security and keeps parents from wasting money making their kids look "cool". With poor and rich kids dressed alike, there is less social stigma from being from a lower income household.

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Can't agree, it's my opinion that school discipline is only marginally if at all related to what t-shirt a kid wants to wear.

Red_Dave said:

Well I've found people were a lot more chilled out, a lot less disruptive etc. and actually learnt a lot more. Furthermore the teachers got to spend less time being anal about the uniforms and more time actually teaching.

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Ever heard of confirmation bias?

phattonez said:

Ever heard of confirmation bias?

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I don't recall having particularly strong views on this at the time :mrgreen:

RabidAlpaca said:

Dude, you have posed ZERO ****ing arguments. You have made zero points, and expressed zero opinions. You have not taken a side. You have done nothing. If you'd like to make an actual ****ing point. I'll be here.

Stop acting like a ****ing child.

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:lamo

You're joking right? Look, I know you didn't like the fact I pointed out how your math was completely wrong. I know you don't like the fact you were wrong about me not talking about the benefits/reasons for them. But this post of yours is utterly ridiculous, not to mention hilarious for you accusing me of acting like a child after you just threw a fit because I constantly corrected your provably false claims.

The fact is children have PLENTY of time to dress the way they want. You were wrong about that. I did post about the benefits of the stricter dress code. You were wrong about that as well. Both of those were "actual ****ing point"s. Just do the honest thing and admit you were wrong. I also said (in the same post I later quoted) it has gone very well for us, which is a pretty clear indication how I feel about it. So you have now been proven wrong three times. Simply admit you were wrong and quit engaging in these transparent tactics of trying to change the conversation after you've been clearly proven wrong.

RabidAlpaca said:

We need to create individuals. People who are creative and free thinkers.

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That's the entire point of education. But restricting what they can wear doesn't harm the ability to educate them to be creative and free thinkers. That's such a nonsensical statement.

Forcing these kids even further into the automoton production line and squashing another element of their creativity isn't really helping anything.

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How are you squashing creativity by standardizing a dress code? That makes no sense.

Creativity is wrought from the mind, not mass produced designer clothing. I have no idea what you are talking about here.

I think this proves my point. You believe all kids should be exactly the same, and the teacher should shape their individuality. Jesus, that's a scary concept.

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No, the scary concept is the fact you seem unable to do simple math, read another person's post...and then start yelling when you are corrected. You talk about allowing for creativity and yet you shout down people who point out the provably false statements you make. In other words, you want everyone to do just like you say and not question anything you say. That's the exact opposite of creativity.

Red_Dave said:

Look at a school with a uniform on non-uniform day and you have the best argument against uniforms.

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It really is amazing some of the things parents will let their children wear.

nota bene said:

I have both not worn/worn school uniforms and my kids both wore/didn’t wear uniforms. Of course, I hated wearing a uniform for a bit; I was all about styles…and boys…and dressing competitively—in other words, an ordinary teenage girl. Which is how I ended up attending a private school and wearing a uniform. Once I settled in, I thought uniforms were great because I never had to think again for school about what I was going to wear. More money for cool clothes for my social life outside of school too. (My mean parents didn’t give me an allowance, and so I always had a part-time job.)

As a mom, uniforms were absolutely fantastic. No morning drama, at least not over clothes. And my kids’ uniforms were good-looking, affordable by anybody, and recycled through the school too, especially the stuff with the school emblem. Khakis or navy chinos and white, navy, or red shirts.

Uniforms solve a lot of problems. I think they improving the learning environment, which is, after all, the main point of schooling...learning.

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Well said.

StillBallin75 said:

Can't agree, it's my opinion that school discipline is only marginally if at all related to what t-shirt a kid wants to wear.

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We have experienced a noticeable drop in discipline since instituting our dress code (as had other schools we consulted before we changed our policy). Sure there can be other factors which may tie into that, but it's a pretty sharp downturn.

I don't have a strong opinion either way. It's just clothes. I would proffer everyone worry more about the literacy rate of graduates.

I don't have a strong opinion either way. I never had to wear them in school, either, though I remember the kids in a nearby Catholic school had to. It does seem that many people who did wear them hated them at the time but look back and see value in them now, and that is worthy of note, IMO.

There are two arguments regarding school uniforms that carry no weight with me, though...

1. They don't allow kids to express themselves. Phfft! So what? They can express themselves on their own time. It's only a few hours a day and it's a good prep for adulthood when their time and their employer's time will be separate and distinct.
2. "I can't afford to buy my kids uniforms." Unless you send your kids to school naked now, yes, you can. Uniforms aren't expensive, and you have to buy your kids clothes anyway, just make some of them uniforms.

It only takes one student to negate a dress code, much less a forced uniform policy. Check out some of the lawsuits from the early '70s. It seems that since education is compulsory, a dress code or uniform code is against the rights of the students.

d0gbreath said:

It only takes one student to negate a dress code, much less a forced uniform policy. Check out some of the lawsuits from the early '70s. It seems that since education is compulsory, a dress code or uniform code is against the rights of the students.

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There are some situations where elements of a dress code cannot enforced, but essentially, as long as the dress code is not purposefully censoring political speech, religious views and/or targeting a specific student or group and the school can show the dress code is shaped to improve the learning environment, generally the school will likely be okay.

Never had to wear uniforms, but I did got to a school with a fairly strict dress code up until 8th grade. I hated it then and would hate it now. The two main points people seem to bring out is less bullying and/or focus on superficial appearance and cheaper than buying regular school clothes for kids. I disagree on both.

Kids are ALWAYS going to bully other kids. Its a fact and there are plenty of things they can bully about other than clothing. Plus, unless your uniforms cover the kids head to toe, there are still things to get bullied about. Several pro-uniform folks have already mentioned shoes. The way kids wear their hair, makeup and jewelry for girls, ect. Kids are still going to put tons of effort into the things they can control and will want to look good or cool for other kids. And the kids that don't do this for whatever reason will get made fun of by the so called cool crowd.

Also, its not really going to camoflauge the poor kids. Kids see what kind of cars parents drive and the family with the rusted out station wagon probably isn't rolling in the dough. Plus is shows in other ways - for younger kids is shows in school supplies (who has the cool new trapper keeper or whatever kids use now vs who has the cruddy, worn out one from last year or worse yet, just those cheap papery folders), for older kids things like the cars they drive to school. Poor kids will still be poor and will easily be identified by other kids as poor.

The other point on cost, I just don't buy it. My folks had buy my brothers and I dress pants and polo shirts or button up shirts for school, but they still had to buy us jeans, t-shirts, shorts, and whatever "cool" clothes we wanted because as soon as we got home, we ripped off our lousy, uncomfortable school clothes and put on normal clothes - which I'm sure almost every kid would be inclined to do, probably even more so with an actual uniform. So you have the expense of buying the uniforms plus whatever regular clothes the kids require. My brothers and I had just as many normal clothes as our friends that went public (and mostly dress code free) schools. We just also had a bunch of other crap that we had to wear for school as well. And I might add, as young, active kis playing at recess or occassionally doing messy crafts or art projects in school, we ruined a lot of dress clothes over the years, which had to be replaced.

I don't buy that it increases productivity or learning or any of that. A t-shirt with a slogan or a logo scrawled on it isn't all that distracting and I was always able to better pay attention, get more done, ect when I was comfortable.

As for the poll, not sure how to vote. I personally don't support uniforms or overly restrictive dress codes in school, and would've hated wearing a uniform to school even more than I hated my school's dress code, but I do think if the local school board or the school's administration want to do that, they should be free to do so.

iacardsfan said:

Have you looked at a private school before? They all are almost identical. As to the learning comment, while you are right, school is not simply about learning but also experiences. This is where you make the connections you use the rest of your life. Appearance is the building blocks to relationships. I don't want to make friends with somebody that looks like they are copied and pasted out of a 1800s mental asylum.

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I worked at a private school and my mother was the head mistress of a private school for 25 years... I didn't work at hers. I worked at a gang infested inner city school and currently in a country that requires uniforms for all students. I have worked in education across all spectrums and uniforms mean almost literally nothing about expressing oneself. Sorry.

Slyfox696 said:

There are some situations where elements of a dress code cannot enforced, but essentially, as long as the dress code is not purposefully censoring political speech, religious views and/or targeting a specific student or group and the school can show the dress code is shaped to improve the learning environment, generally the school will likely be okay.

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emphasis is mine

Therein lies the problem. The defendants were not able to supply such proof of an improved learning environment. That is why the courts ruled in favor of the students and their parents. This fact has not changed.

d0gbreath said:

emphasis is mine

Therein lies the problem. The defendants were not able to supply such proof of an improved learning environment. That is why the courts ruled in favor of the students and their parents. This fact has not changed.

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That very well may be the case in the cases you discussed. However, many schools can show how dress code can improve learning environment. Which is why I posted the disagreement to your statement of "It seems that since education is compulsory, a dress code or uniform code is against the rights of the students.".

d0gbreath said:

emphasis is mine

Therein lies the problem. The defendants were not able to supply such proof of an improved learning environment. That is why the courts ruled in favor of the students and their parents. This fact has not changed.

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but what has changed is greater numbers of schools have moved and are moving toward dress codes and uniforms

My kids nothing went to parochial school for the first half of their elementary education. Uniforms were no more expensive than regular street clothes.

I will say, I liked uniforms at that time, it took the hassle out of what they were wearing from day to day and prolonged the life of their other clothing.

Having said that, they are now both in high school and I don't think uniforms are a great idea. You would still have those kids that weren't up to "code" with their uniforms, kids would hate it, etc... I don't buy into the not being able to express ones individuality argument, since kids normally want to fit in with their peer group.

I WOULD however like to see the schools actually ENFORCE the dress code they put in place. That in itself would make a world of difference.. no saggy ass pants, no ball caps screwed on sideways, no see through clothing, shorts short enough they don't cover your by-god... schools have dress codes in place, but are extremely lack in enforcing them.

Anyone that says even a dress code is too much for kids...I'd say "welcome to how the real world works". Every place you will ever work has some kind of dress code. Wear your own "individual style" on your own time...that's what everyone else does.

TheGirlNextDoor said:

My kids nothing went to parochial school for the first half of their elementary education. Uniforms were no more expensive than regular street clothes.

I will say, I liked uniforms at that time, it took the hassle out of what they were wearing from day to day and prolonged the life of their other clothing.

Having said that, they are now both in high school and I don't think uniforms are a great idea. You would still have those kids that weren't up to "code" with their uniforms, kids would hate it, etc... I don't buy into the not being able to express ones individuality argument, since kids normally want to fit in with their peer group.

I WOULD however like to see the schools actually ENFORCE the dress code they put in place. That in itself would make a world of difference.. no saggy ass pants, no ball caps screwed on sideways, no see through clothing, shorts short enough they don't cover your by-god... schools have dress codes in place, but are extremely lack in enforcing them.

Anyone that says even a dress code is too much for kids...I'd say "welcome to how the real world works". Every place you will ever work has some kind of dress code. Wear your own "individual style" on your own time...that's what everyone else does.

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I don't have a problem with a dress code either. It avoids a LOT of hassles, and uniforms might actually be cheaper than some of the designer labels your kids might want.

I don't buy the individuality argument because it's just stupid. You can express your individuality in other more creative ways, AND you can always wear "your" clothes outside of school.