What is your level of formal education?

I don't even know what a "formal" education is. Is it just like education, but with a suit and tie?

I'm 32 years old and learning. I had a dead spot in my career of learning from the ages of about...15-25, give or take. Learned a FEW things in those years, but they were hard lessons, because I already knew everything. But for the last 7 years? I've been working on my Phd on life. I have successfully learned plumbing, auto mechanics, some auto engineering, electrical sciences, carpentry, masonry, construction, web page design (though I'm not very good), auto racing, cocktail mixology, oh you get the point.

To answer the question, I have a BFA.

But my knowledge base eclipses that and then some.

KevinKohler said:

I don't even know what a "formal" education is. Is it just like education, but with a suit and tie?

I'm 32 years old and learning. I had a dead spot in my career of learning from the ages of about...15-25, give or take. Learned a FEW things in those years, but they were hard lessons, because I already knew everything. But for the last 7 years? I've been working on my Phd on life. I have successfully learned plumbing, auto mechanics, some auto engineering, electrical sciences, carpentry, masonry, construction, web page design (though I'm not very good), auto racing, cocktail mixology, oh you get the point.

To answer the question, I have a BFA.

But my knowledge base eclipses that and then some.

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No; Tux. Suit and tie is semi-formal.

I just completed the last bits and pieces for Master's yesterday.

This is the academic resume of the man who holds the most esteemed law professorship in the USA

Akhil Reed Amar | Yale Law School

Education
J.D., Yale, 1984
B.A., Yale, 1980

Why the big debate over the JD? I don't get the significance here. Weren't we just listing our credentials? I didn't get specific about mine, but I guess I could have.

American said:

Why the big debate over the JD? I don't get the significance here. Weren't we just listing our credentials? I didn't get specific about mine, but I guess I could have.

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yeah we ought to get back on track. For even the most important law jobs (Yale Law professor or US Sup Ct justice) the JD is the terminal degree. same with the MBA for business while a masters in say history is not sufficient to be say the Sterling Professor of History at Yale or a department chair at Stanford

3 masters degree in Food Service Management Systems and Human Resource Applications, Food Safety and Sanitation,and Creole/Cajun Cuisine.I have BA's in Italian,French,and Contemporary American Cuisine.

TurtleDude said:

yeah we ought to get back on track. For even the most important law jobs (Yale Law professor or US Sup Ct justice) the JD is the terminal degree. same with the MBA for business while a masters in say history is not sufficient to be say the Sterling Professor of History at Yale or a department chair at Stanford

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Mine is a Master of Engineering Management. It's similar to an MBA for engineering, just not as widely known. My Bachelor's is in engineering.

Captain Adverse said:

Yes, entirely too many of us.

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I heard once that 50%of all attorneys in the world practice in the US. Not really a good thing for the US I feel (no disrespect intended).

I was trying to be funny a while ago, but back when I got out of the Marine Corps I seriously considered law school and was talked out of it because of the over abundance of attorney at the time and the projections for many more over the next 20 years. The direction I took worked out well, but I often wondered if there really were that many lawyers out there now. Are there really too many?

Artevelde said:

I heard once that 50%of all attorneys in the world practice in the US. Not really a good thing for the US I feel (no disrespect intended).

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TurtleDude said:

yeah we ought to get back on track. For even the most important law jobs (Yale Law professor or US Sup Ct justice) the JD is the terminal degree. same with the MBA for business while a masters in say history is not sufficient to be say the Sterling Professor of History at Yale or a department chair at Stanford

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Yes, I agree. I just got a little perturbed when someone commented a J.D. is merely the equivalent of a Masters. I did some research and found out what the ABA and several state bars think. You might check out my post # 88, page 9.

Short version, the ABA equates the J.D. with the Ph.D. and also allows lawyers the right to use the title obtained by getting one, especially when working in an academic field (i.e. as an instructor you can be called Doctor). Small wonder when a J.D. takes 3 years and 90 units, but even this MFA one member was touting only requires 45; and all Masters programs require 45 units or less. I'd never use it in legal practice, but if I ever taught I might.

Okay, rant over! lol

Artevelde said:

I heard once that 50%of all attorneys in the world practice in the US. Not really a good thing for the US I feel (no disrespect intended).

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There are a lot. During my last year of law school I was eating at a restaurant I used to frequent about a block away from my school. There was this one waiter there who often served me. This one time he asked about what I was studying and I when told him I was in my last year of law school he said he was a practicing attorney too! I looked at him in surprise and asked why he was waiting tables and he said he was in practice but he needed to make extra cash to pay the bills.

When I first moved to my new state I bumped into several licensed attorneys doing work other than law. A lot of grads also find themselves working for $22 -$25 an hour on document review jobs contracted through legal temporary agencies. There are definately more lawyers than there are paying jobs available in the field.

penn1954 said:

High school grad here.
Just enough college to know I didn't want to keep attending!!:lol:

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Same here. Did get a bunch of technical certs in the logistics industry though, that was much later on.

Aderleth said:

Sure, but I'm talking in terms of time, effort and prestige.

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Mehhhh...

I don't always see it as being hard and fast like that.

I have a great deal of respect for anyone who has earned a PhD (or any doctoral degree), but doing so could sort of force your career in directions you might not sometimes wish it to go.

I have an MLIS (Library & Information Science) in which I concentrated more along the lines of information science than strict, traditional librarianship.

I could pursue a PhD in information science, and have been offered the opportunity to do so, but doing so wouldn't do anything for my career prospects and would, essentially, be useless to me.

Working, as I do, in the competitive intelligence and market analysis sector of the financial services industry I'd be much better served with a second Masters degree.

An MBA with a concentration in finance (which I intend to pursue once my one-year-old is in kindergarten) would open doors for me (incredibly lucrative doors) that a PhD in my field almost certainly wouldn't.

Now, to your point, I'd argue that earning an MBA in finance would require at least as much effort as earning a PhD in information science and I think there's a lot to be said in so far as prestige is concerned in having two Masters degrees and knocking back $250,000 a year vurses having an MLIS and a PhD and making $60,000 a year as an adjunct professor somewhere.

I understand that if you're working in academia there's a certain cachet to holding a PhD than holding any number of assorted Masters degress can't match.

But in the business world education can sometimes be a very different animal.

soot said:

h I intend to pursue once my one-year-old is in kindergarten) would open doors for me (incredibly lucrative doors) that a PhD in my field almost certainly wouldn't.

Now, to your point, I'd argue that earning an MBA in finance would require at least as much effort as earning a PhD in information science and I think there's a lot to be said in so far as prestige is concerned in having two Masters degrees and knocking back $250,000 a year vurses having an MLIS and a PhD and making $60,000 a year as an adjunct professor somewhere.

I understand that if you're working in academia there's a certain cachet to holding a PhD than holding any number of assorted Masters degress can't match.

But in the business world education can sometimes be a very different animal.

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Sure. An MBA is different from a PhD or an MS or MFA. That's why it makes sense to separate out the various higher level degrees into their own categories. Although no, an MBA is not as much work as a PhD in basically any field. Speaking as someone with a JD who knows a bunch of joint JD/MBA's, getting an MBA is incredibly easy (at least compared to law school). The hard part is getting into a top tier program. My old undergrad roommate went on to get an MFA in acting from Yale. While she was there she briefly dated a guy getting his MBA, and when he found out what her schedule was like his response was something along the lines of "wow that's way the hell harder than what I have to do." And by contrast, PhD programs take about twice as long to complete and usually require genuinely original academic work. That's much tougher than learning how to read financial spreadsheets and analyze stock offerings.

My question would have been "highest level of education completed," and options would have been less than HS, HS diploma/GED, 2-year associates, bachelors, MBA, other masters, JD, PhD, MD, other doctorate.

[edit]. Actually I'd probably have combined MBA with masters degrees.

Neomalthusian said:

My question would have been "highest level of education completed," and options would have been less than HS, HS diploma/GED, 2-year associates, bachelors, MBA, other masters, JD, PhD, MD, other doctorate.

[edit]. Actually I'd probably have combined MBA with masters degrees.

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Wait...are you saying in this particular hierarchy that once you got to the doctorate level (above masters) you'd list J.D. lowest, then PhD, then MD, then "other doctorate" whatever that means? Or are you saying you'd list all the doctorates equally?

Captain Adverse said:

There are a lot. During my last year of law school I was eating at a restaurant I used to frequent about a block away from my school. There was this one waiter there who often served me. This one time he asked about what I was studying and I when told him I was in my last year of law school he said he was a practicing attorney too! I looked at him in surprise and asked why he was waiting tables and he said he was in practice but he needed to make extra cash to pay the bills.

When I first moved to my new state I bumped into several licensed attorneys doing work other than law. A lot of grads also find themselves working for $22 -$25 an hour on document review jobs contracted through legal temporary agencies. There are definately more lawyers than there are paying jobs available in the field.

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I tell friends' kids that unless you can get into a name law school or your state's best public law school (example UC Berk in california, Boston U in Mass, Ohio State, or UNC-Chaple Hill) its probably not worth going to law school. When I was in lawschool if you were in the top third at an Ivy or equivalent school you could get a job at one of the best wall street firms. middle of the class-some very good NY firms or really good regional firms in Cincinnati, Columbus, Cleveland. Law review at a decent state school about the same. Now its shifted about 50% meaning you better be in the top quarter of your class at Columbia or better for those big NY firms and law review at Ohio State for a top fourth street firm in cincinnati or a top firm in Cleveland

Aderleth said:

There are lots of terminal degrees, and they're not all treated equally in terms if prestige. MD's, JD's, MFA's and PhD's all get treated differently in society. :shrug:

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What is a "terminal degree?"

Aderleth said:

Sure. An MBA is different from a PhD or an MS or MFA. That's why it makes sense to separate out the various higher level degrees into their own categories. Although no, an MBA is not as much work as a PhD in basically any field. Speaking as someone with a JD who knows a bunch of joint JD/MBA's, getting an MBA is incredibly easy (at least compared to law school). The hard part is getting into a top tier program. My old undergrad roommate went on to get an MFA in acting from Yale. While she was there she briefly dated a guy getting his MBA, and when he found out what her schedule was like his response was something along the lines of "wow that's way the hell harder than what I have to do." And by contrast, PhD programs take about twice as long to complete and usually require genuinely original academic work. That's much tougher than learning how to read financial spreadsheets and analyze stock offerings.

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I guess my hearing getting a PhD is largely about sucking the over-seer's dick and kissing his/her ass for a few years was wrong.

Sorry to interrupt. Carry on your debate. .

TurtleDude said:

I tell friends' kids that unless you can get into a name law school or your state's best public law school (example UC Berk in california, Boston U in Mass, Ohio State, or UNC-Chaple Hill) its probably not worth going to law school. When I was in lawschool if you were in the top third at an Ivy or equivalent school you could get a job at one of the best wall street firms. middle of the class-some very good NY firms or really good regional firms in Cincinnati, Columbus, Cleveland. Law review at a decent state school about the same. Now its shifted about 50% meaning you better be in the top quarter of your class at Columbia or better for those big NY firms and law review at Ohio State for a top fourth street firm in cincinnati or a top firm in Cleveland

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One day during my Professional Responsibility and Ethics course the professor told the class he wanted to take a poll. He said he was going to call out a starting salary and asked the class to raise their hands when he hit on the salary they expected to get at their first job. He started with $45,000 and I was the only one who raised his hand (since I expected to work as a public defender). Then he went up in $5,000 increments and no one raised their hand again until he got to $90,000, and eventually most people raised their hands between $100,000 and $120,000.

I think they had unrealistic expectations based on old school values. LOL

penn1954 said:

High school grad here.
Just enough college to know I didn't want to keep attending!!:lol:

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Yeah, I only needed 33 hours when I left realizing it was wasting my time and holding me back. I now realize it was a good move for me every time we hire a new college boy and it takes him three years to learn our business.

joko104 said:

I guess my hearing getting a PhD is largely about sucking the over-seer's dick and kissing his/her ass for a few years was wrong.

Sorry to interrupt. Carry on your debate. .

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Whoa! Thinking back on this I didn't mean it as an insult, really. I was taking the MBA guy's side who was being severely ridiculed by a guy with a PhD. Both you guys certainly worked and studied tremendously and successfully for years, earning the titles you have and the opportunities you earns others do not have. My crude quip maybe has a tad of point to it - that some degree of submissiveness and cajolery and decorum/ranking concessions may be involved in climbing the ladder - but that is true in about everything anyway.

The levels of education on this forum are extremely impressive and represent great effort and success. That does not necessary mean a superior or person nor a wiser one in other topics and fields however, and within your own there are disagreeements.

Associates and Bachelors. Planning to start my masters next fall.

Aderleth said:

My old undergrad roommate went on to get an MFA in acting from Yale. While she was there she briefly dated a guy getting his MBA, and when he found out what her schedule was like his response was something along the lines of "wow that's way the hell harder than what I have to do." And by contrast, PhD programs take about twice as long to complete and usually require genuinely original academic work. That's much tougher than learning how to read financial spreadsheets and analyze stock offerings.

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I'd argue that in large part the "difficulty" of completing a program is predicated a lot on the aptitude and abilities of the individual and, in no small part, on the "difficulty" of the degree/program.

I went through library school (the #4 program in the country) with guys who had JDs (from 2nd and 3rd tier law schools), essentially failed lawyers who were going back to get library degrees so they could become law librarians, and they found the MLIS program more difficult than law school in many respects. Actually, one of the guys was put out of the program for failing to meet standards.

Now, I'll grant you, library school isn't rocket science so it's a pretty poor example to be using.

So lets use rocket science.

I'm sure there are plenty of guys running around with JDs, even from pretty darn good law schools, who couldn't earn acceptance to, let alone successfully complete, even a mid flight Masters' program that's heavy in advanced maths like Aerospace Engineering.

It's really all relative.

One of my best friends has a JD from Georgetown and made partner at Lowenstein Sandler a couple years ago, so not shabby as far as law careers go, and we've discussed this a number of time. His thinking is that he could have completed an MD program if he chose to go that route but the math in an engineering program would have killed him.