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Freedom of Religion vs the Mandate to Evolve [W 65]

Which is more crucial


  • Total voters
    40
  • Poll closed .
Do you really want the government to take away its funding?


the federal government has no authority in education.

that is the state power.

the u.s. is suppose to practice federalism.

just becuase government is doing something and some people like and thinks its the right thing to do, its still not legal.
 
the federal government has no authority in education.

that is the state power.

the u.s. is suppose to practice federalism.

just becuase government is doing something and some people like and thinks its the right thing to do, its still not legal.


All three levels of government, federal, state, and local, contribute to education funding. Do a little research.
 
Talk about feverish! :lamo The Conspiracy Theory section is down the hall and to the right.
Thanks for the directions. But why are you giving them to me?
 
All three levels of government, federal, state, and local, contribute to education funding. Do a little research.

you need to read, i will point you in the right direction.

the u.s. constitution article 1 section 8 are the powers of congress, there are 18 powers.

education is not in the 18 powers of congress.

education is a state power.

"all powers not delegated to the federal government by the constitution ,shall remain the power of the states and the people"
 
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I can think of lots of reasons why atheists would LOVE to present science to religious children. "THIS is how the Universe works" (leaving no question in religious children's minds that this teacher believes there is absolutely ZERO room for God in the "real world"). God doesn't even have to be mentioned in this case.

So sorry if you're imaginary deity can't stand up to the scientific method. You do, however, have a few options. One, admit that this deity doesn't dwell in the natural world (that would probably eliminate omnipotence, though). Two, say the deity dwells in the natural world but doesn't wish to be discovered (that would probably promote a malevolent or trickster god and promote a dystheistic approach). Or three, admit that it's probably a crock. Of course, there are more options, but those are the three main ones I'd focus on.

And, like MoSurveyor said, if you wish to continue this conspiracy talk, might I recommend you to a the "Conspiracy Theories" subforum. You should feel right at home there with the Birthers, the Truthers, and the Moon-deniers.
 
So sorry if you're imaginary deity can't stand up to the scientific method.
Oh, but He can. He just can't stand up to atheism's spin on it.

4. Did you ever stop to consider that God, being an intelligent personage, might have decided that, in most cases, man should figure out how to come to Him, first?
 
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Oh, but He can. He just can't stand up to atheism's spin on it.

4. Did you ever stop to consider that God, being an intelligent personage, might have decided that, in most cases, man should figure out how to come to Him, first?

What is the atheistic spin on the scientific method? And yes, I've considered that. There are many that are willing, even some of the best scientists in the world, but so far - nothing.
 
What is the atheistic spin on the scientific method?
Doing nothing (or half assing it) and expecting something in return.

And yes, I've considered that. There are many that are willing, even some of the best scientists in the world, but so far - nothing.
That's because their heart wasn't in it.
 
Doing nothing (or half assing it) and expecting something in return.

That's because their heart wasn't in it.

How do you figure the atheist spin (still haven't addressed this) is doing nothing and expecting something in return?

Wow so now you're dictating who and who are not "true" believers.
 
the federal government has no authority in education.

that is the state power.

the u.s. is suppose to practice federalism.

just becuase government is doing something and some people like and thinks its the right thing to do, its still not legal.

Doesn't mean it's illegal either. Remember our brand of federalism stated with a federal government that was too weak. So, we strengthened it.
 
How do you figure the atheist spin (still haven't addressed this) is doing nothing and expecting something in return?
If I tell you God exists, then you ask for proof. If I tell you how you can get proof, you say ________?

Wow so now you're dictating who and who are not "true" believers.
No, I'm saying that I've gotten responses. And since I know I'm not out of my mind, then the disconnect must be on the other end. Either their heart wasn't in it, or they didn't even try.
 
Doesn't mean it's illegal either. Remember our brand of federalism stated with a federal government that was too weak. So, we strengthened it.

its clear you dont know the constitution, the founders are clear, congress only has 18 powers...education is not in the 18 powers of congress

according to your logic congress has opened ended powers to do anything they wish and that is simply not true.

“The powers delegated by the proposed Constitution to the federal government are few and defined . . . to be exercised principally on external objects, as war, peace, negotiation, and foreign commerce.” – James Madison, Federalist 45

“[Congressional jurisdiction of power] is limited to certain enumerated objects, which concern all the members of the republic, but which are not to be attained by the separate provisions of any.” – James Madison, Federalist 14

“The Constitution allows only the means which are ‘necessary,’ not those which are merely ‘convenient,’ for effecting the enumerated powers. If such a latitude of construction be allowed to this phrase as to give any non-enumerated power, it will go to every one, for there is not one which ingenuity may not torture into a convenience in some instance or other, to some one of so long a list of enumerated powers. It would swallow up all the delegated powers, and reduce the whole to one power, as before observed” – Thomas Jefferson, 1791

“Congress has not unlimited powers to provide for the general welfare, but only those specifically enumerated.” – Thomas Jefferson, 1798

“This specification of particulars [the 18 enumerated powers of Article I, Section 8] evidently excludes all pretension to a general legislative authority, because an affirmative grant of special powers would be absurd as well as useless if a general authority was intended.” – Alexander Hamilton, Federalist 83
 
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its clear you dont know the constitution, the founders are clear, congress only has 18 powers.

according to your logic congress has opened ended powers to do anything they wish and that is simply not true.

“The powers delegated by the proposed Constitution to the federal government are few and defined . . . to be exercised principally on external objects, as war, peace, negotiation, and foreign commerce.” – James Madison, Federalist 45

“[Congressional jurisdiction of power] is limited to certain enumerated objects, which concern all the members of the republic, but which are not to be attained by the separate provisions of any.” – James Madison, Federalist 14

“The Constitution allows only the means which are ‘necessary,’ not those which are merely ‘convenient,’ for effecting the enumerated powers. If such a latitude of construction be allowed to this phrase as to give any non-enumerated power, it will go to every one, for there is not one which ingenuity may not torture into a convenience in some instance or other, to some one of so long a list of enumerated powers. It would swallow up all the delegated powers, and reduce the whole to one power, as before observed” – Thomas Jefferson, 1791

“Congress has not unlimited powers to provide for the general welfare, but only those specifically enumerated.” – Thomas Jefferson, 1798

“This specification of particulars [the 18 enumerated powers of Article I, Section 8] evidently excludes all pretension to a general legislative authority, because an affirmative grant of special powers would be absurd as well as useless if a general authority was intended.” – Alexander Hamilton, Federalist 83

yes, I'm familiar with your rant. Show me your Constitutional scholar credentials.
 
yes, I'm familiar with your rant. Show me your Constitutional scholar credentials.

i dont need one to look and see that education in not among congress's powers.

do you see education anywhere in these 18 powers?


The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;

To borrow Money on the credit of the United States;

To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes;

To establish an uniform Rule of Naturalization, and uniform Laws on the subject of Bankruptcies throughout the United States;

To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures;

To provide for the Punishment of counterfeiting the Securities and current Coin of the United States;

To establish Post Offices and post Roads;

To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries;

To constitute Tribunals inferior to the supreme Court;

To define and punish Piracies and Felonies committed on the high Seas, and Offences against the Law of Nations;

To declare War, grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal, and make Rules concerning Captures on Land and Water;

To raise and support Armies, but no Appropriation of Money to that Use shall be for a longer Term than two Years;

To provide and maintain a Navy;

To make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and naval Forces;

To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions;

To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;

To exercise exclusive Legislation in all Cases whatsoever, over such District (not exceeding ten Miles square) as may, by Cession of particular States, and the Acceptance of Congress, become the Seat of the Government of the United States, and to exercise like Authority over all Places purchased by the Consent of the Legislature of the State in which the Same shall be, for the Erection of Forts, Magazines, Arsenals, dock-Yards, and other needful Buildings;--And

To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or Officer thereof.
 
i dont need one to look and see that education in not among congress's powers.

do you see education anywhere in these 18 powers?


The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;

To borrow Money on the credit of the United States;

To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes;

To establish an uniform Rule of Naturalization, and uniform Laws on the subject of Bankruptcies throughout the United States;

To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures;

To provide for the Punishment of counterfeiting the Securities and current Coin of the United States;

To establish Post Offices and post Roads;

To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries;

To constitute Tribunals inferior to the supreme Court;

To define and punish Piracies and Felonies committed on the high Seas, and Offences against the Law of Nations;

To declare War, grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal, and make Rules concerning Captures on Land and Water;

To raise and support Armies, but no Appropriation of Money to that Use shall be for a longer Term than two Years;

To provide and maintain a Navy;

To make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and naval Forces;

To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions;

To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;

To exercise exclusive Legislation in all Cases whatsoever, over such District (not exceeding ten Miles square) as may, by Cession of particular States, and the Acceptance of Congress, become the Seat of the Government of the United States, and to exercise like Authority over all Places purchased by the Consent of the Legislature of the State in which the Same shall be, for the Erection of Forts, Magazines, Arsenals, dock-Yards, and other needful Buildings;--And

To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or Officer thereof.

It doesn't have to be. There are sets and subsets of assigned powers. More than one libertarian has misread the Constitution. It helps to consult those who know how it works. Even a mechanic needs to learn from those who already are mechanics. You can't make judgements with that learning. So, that's why we take our cars to mechanics.
 
It doesn't have to be. There are sets and subsets of assigned powers. More than one libertarian has misread the Constitution. It helps to consult those who know how it works. Even a mechanic needs to learn from those who already are mechanics. You can't make judgements with that learning. So, that's why we take our cars to mechanics.

wrong the federal government was given 18 powers only.

anything not listed in article 1 section 8 is a state power.

"all powers not delegated to the federal government by the constitution shall remain the power of the states and the people--- 10th amendment

"If Congress can do whatever in their discretion can be done by money, the Government is no longer a limited one, possessing enumerated powers, but an indefinite one, subject to particular exceptions." --James Madison

"If Congress can employ money indefinitely to the general welfare, and are the sole and supreme judges of the general welfare, they may take the care of religion into their own hands; they may appoint teachers in every State, county and parish and pay them out of their public treasury; they may take into their own hands the education of children, establishing in like manner schools throughout the Union; they may assume the provision of the poor; they may undertake the regulation of all roads other than post-roads; in short, every thing, from the highest object of state legislation down to the most minute object of police, would be thrown under the power of Congress. ... Were the power of Congress to be established in the latitude contended for, it would subvert the very foundations, and transmute the very nature of the limited Government established by the people of America." --James Madison
 
wrong the federal government was given 18 powers only.

anything not listed in article 1 section 8 is a state power.

"all powers not delegated to the federal government by the constitution shall remain the power of the states and the people--- 10th amendment

"If Congress can do whatever in their discretion can be done by money, the Government is no longer a limited one, possessing enumerated powers, but an indefinite one, subject to particular exceptions." --James Madison

"If Congress can employ money indefinitely to the general welfare, and are the sole and supreme judges of the general welfare, they may take the care of religion into their own hands; they may appoint teachers in every State, county and parish and pay them out of their public treasury; they may take into their own hands the education of children, establishing in like manner schools throughout the Union; they may assume the provision of the poor; they may undertake the regulation of all roads other than post-roads; in short, every thing, from the highest object of state legislation down to the most minute object of police, would be thrown under the power of Congress. ... Were the power of Congress to be established in the latitude contended for, it would subvert the very foundations, and transmute the very nature of the limited Government established by the people of America." --James Madison

Again this is not your area of expertise. Your just mindlessly repeating the same rant.
 
Again this is not your area of expertise. Your just mindlessly repeating the same rant.


rant?......i quoted the constitution and Madison, are you saying both are a rant?

you need to stop justifying governments unconstitutional actions.
 
rant?......i quoted the constitution and Madison, are you saying both are a rant?

you need to stop justifying governments unconstitutional actions.

Again, not a scholar. Allow me to help you:

However, the Constitution still has an effect upon public education in the United States. The Fourteenth Amendment to the Constitution, which was ratified in 1868, contains both the due process and equal protection clauses, which concern state action in these two areas. The effect of the due process clause is described in Basic Due Process for Pennsylvania Students and Basic Due Process for Pennsylvania Educators. The equal protection clause is involved in issues of race, ethnicity, national origin or sex when there is a question of discrimination. The United States Supreme Court has also used the Fourteenth Amendment to apply other amendments to action by the fifty states. The most important amendments concerning public education, which are applied to state action under the umbrella of the Fourteenth Amendment, are: (1) the First Amendment in terms of the religion clauses, speech and assembly; (2) the Fourth Amendment in terms of search and seizure; and, (3) the Eighth Amendment in terms of cruel and unusual punishment. A student or teacher who feels that one of these rights guaranteed by the U.S. Constitution has been infringed may bring an action in a federal court.

(Snip)

Supreme Court Decisions Affecting Public Education

Supreme Court decisions have many effects upon public schools. The Court decides if a statute is constitutional. In Board of Education of Westside Community School District v. Mergens, 496 U.S. 226 (1990), the Court ruled that the EAA did not violate the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment. The court sometimes declares that a law passed by the Congress that affects public schools is unconstitutional. This was the case in U.S. v. Lopez, 514 U.S. 549 (1995), when The Gun-Free School Zones Act of 1990 was declared unconstitutional. Usually when the Court decides an issue, that decision will serve as a precedent for many years, but this is not always the case. In Minersville School District v. Gobitis, 310 U.S. 586 (1940), the Court held that students who held religious objections could be compelled by a Pennsylvania statute to recite the pledge of allegiance, but three years later in West Virginia Board of Education v. Barnette, 319 U.S. 624 (1943), the Court held that such a compulsion violated the First Amendment. Some of the major cases decided by the Court that affect public education are discussed below.

The Role of the Federal Government in Public Education in the United States


You should read all of so as to not cherry pick and couple of lines and miss the anger picture.
 
Again, not a scholar. Allow me to help you:

However, the Constitution still has an effect upon public education in the United States. The Fourteenth Amendment to the Constitution, which was ratified in 1868, contains both the due process and equal protection clauses, which concern state action in these two areas. The effect of the due process clause is described in Basic Due Process for Pennsylvania Students and Basic Due Process for Pennsylvania Educators. The equal protection clause is involved in issues of race, ethnicity, national origin or sex when there is a question of discrimination. The United States Supreme Court has also used the Fourteenth Amendment to apply other amendments to action by the fifty states. The most important amendments concerning public education, which are applied to state action under the umbrella of the Fourteenth Amendment, are: (1) the First Amendment in terms of the religion clauses, speech and assembly; (2) the Fourth Amendment in terms of search and seizure; and, (3) the Eighth Amendment in terms of cruel and unusual punishment. A student or teacher who feels that one of these rights guaranteed by the U.S. Constitution has been infringed may bring an action in a federal court.

(Snip)

Supreme Court Decisions Affecting Public Education

Supreme Court decisions have many effects upon public schools. The Court decides if a statute is constitutional. In Board of Education of Westside Community School District v. Mergens, 496 U.S. 226 (1990), the Court ruled that the EAA did not violate the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment. The court sometimes declares that a law passed by the Congress that affects public schools is unconstitutional. This was the case in U.S. v. Lopez, 514 U.S. 549 (1995), when The Gun-Free School Zones Act of 1990 was declared unconstitutional. Usually when the Court decides an issue, that decision will serve as a precedent for many years, but this is not always the case. In Minersville School District v. Gobitis, 310 U.S. 586 (1940), the Court held that students who held religious objections could be compelled by a Pennsylvania statute to recite the pledge of allegiance, but three years later in West Virginia Board of Education v. Barnette, 319 U.S. 624 (1943), the Court held that such a compulsion violated the First Amendment. Some of the major cases decided by the Court that affect public education are discussed below.

The Role of the Federal Government in Public Education in the United States


You should read all of so as to not cherry pick and couple of lines and miss the anger picture.

the 14th amendment to our constitution was written for the slave population only as confirmed by the the USSC in 1873.

only decades later has it pertained to the general population.

do you see the words education in the constitution at all?...........no!

again for you, "all powers not delegated to the federal government by the constitution shall remain the power of the states, and the people"--10th amendment

do you see education as a "delegated power" mentioned by the wording ......no!

14th amendment--

The Constitution: Amendments 11-27

AMENDMENT XIV

Passed by Congress June 13, 1866. Ratified July 9, 1868.

Note: Article I, section 2, of the Constitution was modified by section 2 of the 14th amendment.


Section 1.
All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

Section 2.
Representatives shall be apportioned among the several States according to their respective numbers, counting the whole number of persons in each State, excluding Indians not taxed. But when the right to vote at any election for the choice of electors for President and Vice-President of the United States, Representatives in Congress, the Executive and Judicial officers of a State, or the members of the Legislature thereof, is denied to any of the male inhabitants of such State, being twenty-one years of age,* and citizens of the United States, or in any way abridged, except for participation in rebellion, or other crime, the basis of representation therein shall be reduced in the proportion which the number of such male citizens shall bear to the whole number of male citizens twenty-one years of age in such State.

Section 3.
No person shall be a Senator or Representative in Congress, or elector of President and Vice-President, or hold any office, civil or military, under the United States, or under any State, who, having previously taken an oath, as a member of Congress, or as an officer of the United States, or as a member of any State legislature, or as an executive or judicial officer of any State, to support the Constitution of the United States, shall have engaged in insurrection or rebellion against the same, or given aid or comfort to the enemies thereof. But Congress may by a vote of two-thirds of each House, remove such disability.

Section 4.
The validity of the public debt of the United States, authorized by law, including debts incurred for payment of pensions and bounties for services in suppressing insurrection or rebellion, shall not be questioned. But neither the United States nor any State shall assume or pay any debt or obligation incurred in aid of insurrection or rebellion against the United States, or any claim for the loss or emancipation of any slave; but all such debts, obligations and claims shall be held illegal and void.

Section 5.
The Congress shall have the power to enforce, by appropriate legislation, the provisions of this article.


the 14th amendment does says nothing of education, and you pretend it does.

yet the 10th amendment is clear, ----------->its not a delegated power.
 
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the 14th amendment to our constitution was written for the slave population only as confirmed by the the USSC in 1873.

only decades later has it pertained to the general population.

do you see the words education in the constitution at all?...........no!

again for you, "all powers not delegated to the federal government by the constitution shall remain the power of the states, and the people"--10th amendment

do you see education as a "delegated power" mentioned by the wording ......no!

14th amendment--

The Constitution: Amendments 11-27

AMENDMENT XIV

Passed by Congress June 13, 1866. Ratified July 9, 1868.

Note: Article I, section 2, of the Constitution was modified by section 2 of the 14th amendment.


Section 1.
All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

Section 2.
Representatives shall be apportioned among the several States according to their respective numbers, counting the whole number of persons in each State, excluding Indians not taxed. But when the right to vote at any election for the choice of electors for President and Vice-President of the United States, Representatives in Congress, the Executive and Judicial officers of a State, or the members of the Legislature thereof, is denied to any of the male inhabitants of such State, being twenty-one years of age,* and citizens of the United States, or in any way abridged, except for participation in rebellion, or other crime, the basis of representation therein shall be reduced in the proportion which the number of such male citizens shall bear to the whole number of male citizens twenty-one years of age in such State.

Section 3.
No person shall be a Senator or Representative in Congress, or elector of President and Vice-President, or hold any office, civil or military, under the United States, or under any State, who, having previously taken an oath, as a member of Congress, or as an officer of the United States, or as a member of any State legislature, or as an executive or judicial officer of any State, to support the Constitution of the United States, shall have engaged in insurrection or rebellion against the same, or given aid or comfort to the enemies thereof. But Congress may by a vote of two-thirds of each House, remove such disability.

Section 4.
The validity of the public debt of the United States, authorized by law, including debts incurred for payment of pensions and bounties for services in suppressing insurrection or rebellion, shall not be questioned. But neither the United States nor any State shall assume or pay any debt or obligation incurred in aid of insurrection or rebellion against the United States, or any claim for the loss or emancipation of any slave; but all such debts, obligations and claims shall be held illegal and void.

Section 5.
The Congress shall have the power to enforce, by appropriate legislation, the provisions of this article.


the 14th amendment does says nothing of education, and you pretend it does.

yet the 10th amendment is clear, ----------->its not a delegated power.

You're still just ranting. The trouble with not being a scholar is that you only have a superficial understanding. I gave you good information. You should read it.
 
i have stated i dont care if gays marry ....this is what i dont like...the public school part...i am always against government using force on people who have done nothing.

How same-sex "marriage" affects Massachusetts

I am against government using force also.

But your link was about school curriculum. Teaching children that gay people are normal is not force. home school your kids take them to private school, move to a different school district. There are three ways around it, now of your kid was mandatedto learn this regardless of your choice of school that would be force.

You choose to put your kids in public school, nothing at all regarding school curriculum is force. If you feel that strongly about it home school.
 
If I tell you God exists, then you ask for proof. If I tell you how you can get proof, you say ________?

But you don't tell how anyone can measure the system to obtain proof. I got a voltmeter, some probes, and an oscilloscope. What can I measure that proves gods?

No, I'm saying that I've gotten responses. And since I know I'm not out of my mind, then the disconnect must be on the other end. Either their heart wasn't in it, or they didn't even try.

Your knowledge base is corrupt. Defrag and try again.
 
But you don't tell how anyone can measure the system to obtain proof. I got a voltmeter, some probes, and an oscilloscope. What can I measure that proves gods?
You can't prove God exists, that is why religions require faith. No instrument, no meter, no object is capable.
 
You can't prove God exists, that is why religions require faith. No instrument, no meter, no object is capable.

Do people even read quoted texts to understand context anymore?
 
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