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Should the USA adopt the International System of Units (SI)?

Should the USA adopt the International System of Units (SI)?

  • Total voters
    63
MoSurveyor said:
I understand and agree but I'm not going to sugar-coat the process, either. People need to know what it is we'll be getting into by doing this and there will be a lot of mistakes while the old equipment - us humans - get used to it. I've seen more than one construction job screwed up when using meters instead of feet simply because the mistakes the construction guys would normally catch weren't being caught. That can't be the only industry where that kind of thing will happen.
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I think a 10 year conversion plan where both are clearly printed would suffice in making the transition. Just a case of not teahing the old way in school once the transition is made.
 
Canell said:
Yeah, but when you say "I'm driving with 80 mph" or "I'm 6.5 feet high", I have to scratch my head and go looking for a converter.
See how easy it is with units like watts and minutes? We both know what that is. Why can't it be like that for all units?
Besides, decimal system is much easier than dozens and such. ;)
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But easy is for sissies...
 
The thing I hate most of all is lbm. Some of you will know what I mean. Other than that, units that have meaning in every day life are better for every day life. Si is a much easier language to speak in science or engineering.
 
Quag said:
there are advantages to each system. For instance in aviation altitude is usually in feet, this is because due to a unique coincidence 1 inch of mercury = 1000' altitude change (well thereabouts when at lower altitudes) Also for long distance (terrestrial) navigation a nautical mile has its advantages over a KM or regular mile.
for most calculations metric works better. for most every day usage as in distances, weights, volumes it makes little difference but having more than one system makes about as much sense as having several different systems for the calendar. The judeo Christian calendar with this being the year 2013 is pretty much universal now but image if every country kept its own system it would promote confusion at no benefit to anyone
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I do wonder though .... many years ago someone whom I regarded as knowledgeable remarked that a base 12 system had certain advantages - 12 is more easily divisable. That many earlier cultures have used this kind of system is evidenced in lots of ways (time, the zodiac .... even that 11 & 12 don't end in "teen")

I don't know that there are advantages - and certainly its easier to learn your ten times table than your 12 .... but is that only because those are the patterns we are most used to? Years ago I learnt that it was incredibly easy to learn other patterns up to quite large numbers - so maybe how we are taught is what shapes our mind into identifying what we believe is more simple/workable.
 
Goshin said:
If The People don't want it, it shouldn't be pushed on them. Free country, and all that. :)
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Yeah, I agree, but I think if the people actually were educated on it, they would understand the benefits. As of now, most Americans just see it as a foreign system, and their inherent "This is 'merica, and we speak 'merican!" attitude is holding them back.

marywollstonecraft said:
I do wonder though .... many years ago someone whom I regarded as knowledgeable remarked that a base 12 system had certain advantages - 12 is more easily divisable. That many earlier cultures have used this kind of system is evidenced in lots of ways (time, the zodiac .... even that 11 & 12 don't end in "teen")

I don't know that there are advantages - and certainly its easier to learn your ten times table than your 12 .... but is that only because those are the patterns we are most used to? Years ago I learnt that it was incredibly easy to learn other patterns up to quite large numbers - so maybe how we are taught is what shapes our mind into identifying what we believe is more simple/workable.
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Which base we pick is really rather arbitrary, it's only important we stick with one. Imperial uses many different bases for the units, there's no uniformity. SI fits in with base 10.

I use other systems daily, like binary (base 2), and hexidecimal (base 16). You'd be surprised how well your brain can adjust.
 
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Absolutely.

We should have done that decades ago.
 
marywollstonecraft said:
I do wonder though .... many years ago someone whom I regarded as knowledgeable remarked that a base 12 system had certain advantages - 12 is more easily divisable. That many earlier cultures have used this kind of system is evidenced in lots of ways (time, the zodiac .... even that 11 & 12 don't end in "teen")

I don't know that there are advantages - and certainly its easier to learn your ten times table than your 12 .... but is that only because those are the patterns we are most used to? Years ago I learnt that it was incredibly easy to learn other patterns up to quite large numbers - so maybe how we are taught is what shapes our mind into identifying what we believe is more simple/workable.
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Imperial system isn't just based on 12 inches to the foot there is ounces/pound feet/yard feet/mile etc there is no standardization where metric is all the same base 10 very easy to learn
 
MoSurveyor said:
I have to disagree with that completely. Our "new" kitchen is 10 years old and I expect it to last another 15 years at least considering we bought good quality appliances. The average car is 10 years old, which means half of them are older than that. Tractors of all kinds are kept on and off the road for decades. Houses last decades if not over a century, though there have already been changes in that area from pre-WWII houses. Buildings last even longer, especially sky scrappers.


And all that is before we even get into the fitment issues, having to change several things over at near the same time.
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Yes houses tend to last longer as to cars 10 years is average so yeah half are still around go to 12 and well your down to like 1/4 or something like that. Only a very small percentage last to 20 and beyond. AS to household appliances every single place we go they say to expect 7-8 years from them nowadays regardless of manufacturer it is planned fail. Simple everyday things get replaced all the time. heck around here most houses over 60 years old get torn down when a new owner moves in simply because the older houses are very small for the land they are on and new much larger houses get built. Still metric wont really affect this much as when you renovate you tend to pull out all the old crap and replace with new. If you don't touch that screw for 40 years then you rip it out and replace it what difference does it make if it is metric or imperial?

The cost is not prohibitive as shown by every country that has switched over, if it was they would not have done it. In fact some sectors already use metric in the USA, it is just not in general widespread use.
 
ChezC3 said:
I think a 10 year conversion plan where both are clearly printed would suffice in making the transition. Just a case of not teahing the old way in school once the transition is made.
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Not even close to enough time unless you want to spend a LOT of money.
 
earthworm said:
Far too many have voted " no, we are fine" !!
Oh ? Then we should be the world's most backward large nation ?
Our present system , a mix, is a POS !
It has become criminal to stick with it ..
I think our people are smart enough ....I think...to upgrade and completely join the rest of the nations.
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Is there a metric measure for hyperbole?
 
Quag said:
Yes houses tend to last longer as to cars 10 years is average so yeah half are still around go to 12 and well your down to like 1/4 or something like that. Only a very small percentage last to 20 and beyond. AS to household appliances every single place we go they say to expect 7-8 years from them nowadays regardless of manufacturer it is planned fail. Simple everyday things get replaced all the time. heck around here most houses over 60 years old get torn down when a new owner moves in simply because the older houses are very small for the land they are on and new much larger houses get built. Still metric wont really affect this much as when you renovate you tend to pull out all the old crap and replace with new. If you don't touch that screw for 40 years then you rip it out and replace it what difference does it make if it is metric or imperial?

The cost is not prohibitive as shown by every country that has switched over, if it was they would not have done it. In fact some sectors already use metric in the USA, it is just not in general widespread use.
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I am well aware of some of the metric industries in the US. I've had both SAE and metric wrenches for decades - and there are still new cars that have SAE nuts and bolts on them, though I admit they are getting fewer. Still, to have them at all 25 years after they started converting is proof enough that it can't easily happen in a decade.


It makes a BIG difference when you renovate, I've done that a couple of times in my life. Matching pre-WWII 2x4's - that were actual 2x4's - with modern lumber was a PITA! They'd sell a lot of reducers as people tied 15 & 22mm into 1/2" and 3/4" copper water lines. Same problems matching old drains to new. 1200x2400 mm sheets are 3/4" short for the standard 8' wall as are 50x100x2400 mm framing boards. Sure, simple enough for new housing but with old housing you're dead meat. I don't know where you live but around here (and I'd bet in most of the Midwest at least) there are plenty of pre-WWII houses. Very few old houses are torn down for new subdivisions.

I guess you buy cheapie appliances, then. Our washer/dryer pair is 18 years old, we bought them when we moved into this house in '95. No overhauls or expensive repairs, though we did manage to get a quarter stuck in the interior drain hole, once, and that needed servicing big time because I couldn't figure out what was wrong with it. :-/ The dryer's drive belt needed replacing a few years ago. When we moved in here we were still using my parents old fridge from 1979 making it 24 years old when we replaced it - our daughter used it another year or two after that. My central A/C compressor has a 10 warranty and I expect it to last most likely 20+ years. The furnace has a 20 years warranty and it should last 30+ easy. They call this kind of stuff "durable goods" for a reason, you know - but you do get what you pay for. :shrug:


The countries that switched late did so when they were rebuilding after WWII. If we get invaded and have to rebuild half our country then it would be a great time to switch. Otherwise, it's going to cost lots of time and some extra money - or a decade of time and lots of money.
 
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MoSurveyor said:
Not even close to enough time unless you want to spend a LOT of money.
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It's not that hard a system to learn for Pete's sake, Apprenticeship programs for the newbies in the trades and continuing education because people like their jobs and really want to keep them for everyone else...
 
ChezC3 said:
It's not that hard a system to learn for Pete's sake, Apprenticeship programs for the newbies in the trades and continuing education because people like their jobs and really want to keep them for everyone else...
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No kidding.

It's child's play. Simpler than the SAE standard.
 
ChezC3 said:
It's not that hard a system to learn for Pete's sake, Apprenticeship programs for the newbies in the trades and continuing education because people like their jobs and really want to keep them for everyone else...
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I learned this stuff 40+ years ago so don't lecture me on what is and isn't easy to learn. I have no problem converting standard things without looking it up in some reference. What you fail to consider is it's not just a matter of teaching people the differences and how to convert. Parts in engineering have to fit together to work properly. As someone who's used both SAE and metric wrenches since the 80's I can guarantee that metric and SAE don't mix except for a few happenstance near-equals. As I noted before, a 1200x2400 mm sheet will not replace a 4x8' sheet on an existing wall. It leaves a 3/4" (19mm) gap that is not acceptable for fire codes in most buildings and houses. That's just one example of probably millions across American industries where metric and SAE just won't fit together - so when you change one part, like 1200x2400 building sheets, you have to change the other, like the wall studs just to use them in NEW construction. There will still be old construction projects that need old dimensions for decades to come and you can't just add 3/4" to a sheet of plywood or sheetrock, it has to be manufactured that way or it takes a lot of extra work - especially the sheetrock.


But, hey, if you guys can't see the bigger part of this beyond the speedometer in your car then there's nothing more I can do to explain the problems involved.
 
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MoSurveyor said:
I am well aware of some of the metric industries in the US. I've had both SAE and metric wrenches for decades - and there are still new cars that have SAE nuts and bolts on them, though I admit they are getting fewer. Still, to have them at all 25 years after they started converting is proof enough that it can't easily happen in a decade.


It makes a BIG difference when you renovate, I've done that a couple of times in my life. Matching pre-WWII 2x4's - that were actual 2x4's - with modern lumber was a PITA! They'd sell a lot of reducers as people tied 15 & 22mm into 1/2" and 3/4" copper water lines. Same problems matching old drains to new. 1200x2400 mm sheets are 3/4" short for the standard 8' wall as are 50x100x2400 mm framing boards. Sure, simple enough for new housing but with old housing you're dead meat. I don't know where you live but around here (and I'd bet in most of the Midwest at least) there are plenty of pre-WWII houses. Very few old houses are torn down for new subdivisions.

I guess you buy cheapie appliances, then. Our washer/dryer pair is 18 years old, we bought them when we moved into this house in '95. No overhauls or expensive repairs, though we did manage to get a quarter stuck in the interior drain hole, once, and that needed servicing big time because I couldn't figure out what was wrong with it. :-/ The dryer's drive belt needed replacing a few years ago. When we moved in here we were still using my parents old fridge from 1979 making it 24 years old when we replaced it - our daughter used it another year or two after that. My central A/C compressor has a 10 warranty and I expect it to last most likely 20+ years. The furnace has a 20 years warranty and it should last 30+ easy. They call this kind of stuff "durable goods" for a reason, you know - but you do get what you pay for. :shrug:


The countries that switched late did so when they were rebuilding after WWII. If we get invaded and have to rebuild half our country then it would be a great time to switch. Otherwise, it's going to cost lots of time and some extra money - or a decade of time and lots of money.
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Im in Canada we went metric years ago but NP with the piping or anything like that. The USA has never really pushed to go metric so the car industy not being 100% is not a surprise. I don't expect things to go suddenly metric there will be a period of both in use but new stuff all built in metric.
As to appliances yours are 18 years old because you bought them 18 years ago. Buy one today top of the line best marque and the guy will tell you to your face expect 7-8years that's just how the new crap is built. My washing machine used to belong to my inlaws it has to be 20 years old she has changed hers 2x since she gave this to us 10 years ago. fridge we have changed 1x after 5 years (it was a top of the line item), dishwasher lasted 7 (dealership said we were lucky) just changed it all top of the line stuff, when re renovated the kitchen (well the 20 year old washing machine never was top of the line but it's lasted). Oven was still good when we junked it just old/ugly. dishwasher failed at right time for renovations and fridge went to the basement as extra.

As to furnaces ours was 60 years old but we just junked it to go electric (basically a space saving thing the oil tank furnace took up a lot of our limited space) Again newer ones aren't expected to last nearly as long. expect 10-15 years according to people who sold my dad his very high end one 2 years ago. Hot water tanks are about 5 years nowadays. its all planned on purpose to keep consumers consuming.
Point is the new stuff doesn't last and is designed that way
 
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MoSurveyor said:
I learned this stuff 40+ years ago so don't lecture me on what is and isn't easy to learn. I have no problem converting standard things without looking it up in some reference. What you fail to consider is it's not just a matter of teaching people the differences and how to convert. Parts in engineering have to fit together to work properly. As someone who's used both SAE and metric wrenches since the 80's I can guarantee that metric and SAE don't mix except for a few happenstance near-equals. As I noted before, a 1200x2400 mm sheet will not replace a 4x8' sheet on an existing wall. It leaves a 3/4" (19mm) gap that is not acceptable for fire codes in most buildings and houses. That's just one example of probably millions across American industries where metric and SAE just won't fit together - so when you change one part, like 1200x2400 building sheets, you have to change the other, like the wall studs just to use them in NEW construction. There will still be old construction projects that need old dimensions for decades to come and you can't just add 3/4" to a sheet of plywood or sheetrock, it has to be manufactured that way or it takes a lot of extra work - especially the sheetrock.


But, hey, if you guys can't see the bigger part of this beyond the speedometer in your car then there's nothing more I can do to explain the problems involved.
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What I don't think your catching is that by changing the emphasis on usage all new constructs would be under the new system. Yes, you'd have the old and heaven forbid we get hammerheads to know both but old constructs not withstanding the metric system should be the standard system used. Volume, length, weight, distance, etc. should all be in metric. You'd have to role reversal the standard.

I was saying 10 years for everyone to get things sorted out as far as conversion and accepting the new system not anything having to do replacing entire infrastructures.
 
Quag said:
Im in Canada we went metric years ago but NP with the piping or anything like that. The USA has never really pushed to go metric so the car industy not being 100% is not a surprise. I don't expect things to go suddenly metric there will be a period of both in use but new stuff all built in metric.
As to appliances yours are 18 years old because you bought them 18 years ago. Buy one today top of the line best marque and the guy will tell you to your face expect 7-8years that's just how the new crap is built. My washing machine used to belong to my inlaws it has to be 20 years old she has changed hers 2x since she gave this to us 10 years ago. fridge we have changed 1x after 5 years (it was a top of the line item), dishwasher lasted 7 (dealership said we were lucky) just changed it all top of the line stuff, when re renovated the kitchen (well the 20 year old washing machine never was top of the line but it's lasted). Oven was still good when we junked it just old/ugly. dishwasher failed at right time for renovations and fridge went to the basement as extra.

As to furnaces ours was 60 years old but we just junked it to go electric (basically a space saving thing the oil tank furnace took up a lot of our limited space) Again newer ones aren't expected to last nearly as long. expect 10-15 years according to people who sold my dad his very high end one 2 years ago. Hot water tanks are about 5 years nowadays. its all planned on purpose to keep consumers consuming.
Point is the new stuff doesn't last and is designed that way
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I heard the same thing 40 years ago and it wasn't true then, either. Maybe you need to come South to buy your appliances? :shrug:
 
ChezC3 said:
What I don't think your catching is that by changing the emphasis on usage all new constructs would be under the new system. Yes, you'd have the old and heaven forbid we get hammerheads to know both but old constructs not withstanding the metric system should be the standard system used. Volume, length, weight, distance, etc. should all be in metric. You'd have to role reversal the standard.

I was saying 10 years for everyone to get things sorted out as far as conversion and accepting the new system not anything having to do replacing entire infrastructures.
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IF all you're talking about is teaching the masses then I'd agree - but the entire process will take decades.
 
MoSurveyor said:
IF all you're talking about is teaching the masses then I'd agree - but the entire process will take decades.
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Off the bat i wasn't looking at what you said but I agree with you, I had to replace an entire doorframe a couple years back because they didn't make that size door anymore. But yeah, my initial comments where just about making it the norm.
 
Peter Grimm said:
You do what, kiss French ass?
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:lamo Only if she's 20, cute, and is a brunette with not-brown eyes!!!

I understand the economic implications of switching over and I've been preaching it to several people since you posted last. That's why you responded to my original post, wasn't it, because I DO understand?


Then you went on to attack liberals as not being able to understand. I'm what YOU would call a liberal and I understand quite well, thank you. I'm sure that most liberals do, whether you think so or not. The young people I wouldn't bet on, though, from either side of the aisle.
 
MoSurveyor said:
I heard the same thing 40 years ago and it wasn't true then, either. Maybe you need to come South to buy your appliances? :shrug:
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80 years ago stuff was built to last 80-100 years 40 years ago it was to last 30-40 years that is the difference.
True funny anectode. There was a bridge over 100 years old they decided they needed to replace they cut the ends placed the charges and boom the bridge dropped the equivalent of the thickness of the cuts. Took them an extra month to demolish the bridge cause it was built so damn strong. All the newer bridges around here are falling apart and undergoing emergency repairs as they try to keep em from falling down (some unfortunately not succefully with rather tragic results) until new ones are built.
 
Quag said:
80 years ago stuff was built to last 80-100 years 40 years ago it was to last 30-40 years that is the difference.
True funny anectode. There was a bridge over 100 years old they decided they needed to replace they cut the ends placed the charges and boom the bridge dropped the equivalent of the thickness of the cuts. Took them an extra month to demolish the bridge cause it was built so damn strong. All the newer bridges around here are falling apart and undergoing emergency repairs as they try to keep em from falling down (some unfortunately not succefully with rather tragic results) until new ones are built.
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Sorry, but that doesn't jive with what I've seen. Sure the really old bridges seem to be built to last 100 years but the real story is that manufacturing wasn't as good as it is now, so there were more defects in the structural members. To compensate for that, engineers built in a larger safety margin. If anything, when it comes to bridges and tunnels, they can design them to last longer now than ever. Whether the government is stupid or not is all that determines how long it will last.

The same goes for appliances. Some are built to last 20-25 years, others are not. It's all a matter of how much you're willing to spend.
 
MoSurveyor said:
Sorry, but that doesn't jive with what I've seen. Sure the really old bridges seem to be built to last 100 years but the real story is that manufacturing wasn't as good as it is now, so there were more defects in the structural members. To compensate for that, engineers built in a larger safety margin. If anything, when it comes to bridges and tunnels, they can design them to last longer now than ever. Whether the government is stupid or not is all that determines how long it will last.

The same goes for appliances. Some are built to last 20-25 years, others are not. It's all a matter of how much you're willing to spend.
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Doesn't matter what you spend appliances are designed to fail in less than 10 years. Ask any salesman (who have all the reason in the world to lie) and they will tell you. As to bridges yes they over compensated before but it isn't because of stupid politicians (that would be building a 2 lane bridge when anyone could tell in next 10 years at least 3 necessary) but corrupt politicians and builders. Point is if all new stuff is made metric tomorrow it will not be a huge cost on anyone you will still be able to use old stuff until it is replaced except for a few very very long lived things. remember the gyprock stuff (I can still find it in 4'X8') but there was not such a huge history of buildings using it. Gyprock only got going after the war so roughly 60 years only older than that it wasn't made to standard 4'X8' as there was no such thing. Again its not a huge expense.
The longer you wait to switch the more problematic it will be but that does not mean it will be cost prohibitive. Only a little more difficult.
 
RabidAlpaca said:
Yeah, I agree, but I think if the people actually were educated on it, they would understand the benefits. As of now, most Americans just see it as a foreign system, and their inherent "This is 'merica, and we speak 'merican!" attitude is holding them back.



Which base we pick is really rather arbitrary, it's only important we stick with one. Imperial uses many different bases for the units, there's no uniformity. SI fits in with base 10.

I use other systems daily, like binary (base 2), and hexidecimal (base 16). You'd be surprised how well your brain can adjust.
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I have no problem with it. I can think in meters and km and liters and hectares, no big. However, I was taught all this stuff in school then it was reinforced by my interest in science (where almost all measurements are in metric). A lot of people don't get it so easily, and if they've used 'murican measurements for the past 40 years then Joe Avg isn't going to convert over so easily.


IMO just put the two side by side for a couple generations.


JFYI the thing I always hate about "imperial" measures is liquid volume. I am always struggling to remember how many ounces in a quart or gallon. OTOH I find milligrams to be non-intuitive... the measure is just too small for convenience, its about the weight of a couple paper clips. Kilos are awkward because they're 2.2 lbs and converting ounces to milligrams is a pain.
 
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