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Did unions bankrupt Detroit

Did unions bankrupt Detroit

  • Yes, unions killed Detroit

    Votes: 11 35.5%

  • No, unions are not at fault

    Votes: 20 64.5%
  • Total voters
    31
Cephus said:
No, they're not the only reason but they are a major contributing factor and they were, without question, the straw that broke the camel's back. That's the insidious nature of these massive union benefit packages, they get larger and larger and larger every year as more and more people qualify and modern medical technology keeps the retirees alive for longer.
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But even your above argument attempts to place the blame squarely on unions although you cleverly add life span and health care into the mix. All this tells me is you're fixated on blaming the other guy's political values on the problem when truth be told it wasn't just social engineering alone that caused the mess. Ask yourself why did auto companies leave Detroit even after auto unions were effectively destroyed, pension plans were effectively done away with and the state (I presume) shifted to a right-to-work state? Why did Detroit continue to have problems?

I can agree with you that unions played a significant role here, but you're being dishonest if you can't admit that there were other factors that were involved, i.e., a static tax code that never changed as industries left and local government did nothing to create incentives to lure new industry to the area, i.e., shipping. Or better yet, shift your business model to produce something other than cars.
 
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Ryan5 said:
The world is full of contradictions.

In America we have people who hate unions proudly driving BMW's and Mercedes, the two biggest unionized cars on the planet. The irony is huge in that there is a very high likelihood that said anti union Americans BMW or Mercedes was built by a German who is a union member. So the idiot is driving a German Union car designed and originally funded by Hitler and is on his/her way to an 'Anti Union Rally'. Oh yes.

And let's not forget the 'hot and bothered' minorities, feminists, gays and indignant 23 year old's that are driving to their 'Stop Hate' rally in their beloved VolksWagen designed by Adolf Hitler as the ideal car. Oh yes. It's all very interesting ; )
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I drive a Lexus (Toyota). Toyota closed its only unionized plant in the world (California) in 2009. It was a joint venture with GM, idling 4,700 workers.

If I had to make a WAG as to why Toyota found unions an anchor around their necks, I would guess union work rules and pension costs. GM is currently supporting 432,000 retirees and their spouses with very generous benefits. Toyota pays an hourly wage equal to, or slightly above, GM. Its pension and healthcare benefits are less Cadillac and more closely resemble that of the average American worker. It has long been the goal of union rules, not to increase productivity in a fair way,* but to increase the number of workers and turn down productivity. We fail to address that elephant in the room quite efficiently.

My car has no equal American-made for its price point. The interior is leather; most options are included in the list price; service is beyond excellent; the ride is awesome; the accouterments are luxurious. An American-made car, for the money, can't come close. I don't even bother to look at them anymore.

*To assist the very company whose success their paychecks depend upon.
 
No. The whole union copout claims have been used and used and used and overused. Unions are not at fault.
 
Ryan5 said:
It is not because of Unions at all.


If you own a BMW, Mercedes or Volkswagon you are driving a Union vehicle. German carmakers are killing American car makers and German car companies are the most unionized companies in the entire world. They even have corporate unions for their white collar workers..


So no, it has nothing to do with Unions. At all. It DOES have something to do with something else, on the human level though.


Do read into what I'm saying.



On a side note. It is hilarious to watch some anti union American rant about how horrible unions are then brag about their German Union BMW or Mercedes car that is a full blown Union vehicle made my Union members.
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It is Japanese cars that are out selling American cars not German cars.
 
sawyerloggingon said:
At a time when the auto industry is bouncing back Detroit goes bust? Maybe because auto manufacturers have moved to right to work states? Maybe because public unions in Detroit have wage and benefit packages that are out of hand? There is a lesson here, learn it.
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Anybody who answered either way in the poll is wrong. No exceptions.

The poll ignores any middle ground. It's not an either/or scenario. Yes, unions have played a part, but no they are not solely responsible. There were other people on the other side of the negotiating table who approved of the deals that led to today.

If you look at most any similar scenario around the country you will notice that the vast majority of them include contracts or systems that were set up decades ago in "the good times", and with no mechanism for adjustment for when times wouldn't be so good.
 
sawyerloggingon said:
At a time when the auto industry is bouncing back Detroit goes bust? Maybe because auto manufacturers have moved to right to work states? Maybe because public unions in Detroit have wage and benefit packages that are out of hand? There is a lesson here, learn it.
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I would have to say it partially contributed to it.It was the residents who continued to vote for those scum in office who mismanaged the money,the corrupt scum and the scum in office who would continue handing out extremely generous pensions.
 
rabbitcaebannog said:
Japan has auto unions too.
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Most Japanese cars sold in America are made in America by non union workers.

"More than 407,000 jobs in the U.S. are due to Japanese automakers and their dealers, reports the Japanese Automobile Manufacturers Association. And nowadays, Japanese makers are producing most of the cars they sell in the U.S. in North America -- 68% altogether."

7 in 10 Japanese cars sold in U.S. made in N. America
 
BretBierle said:
Republicans always over taxing the poor and under taxing the rich
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The effective rate of tax on the poor is zero. Less if you consider welfare a negative tax, and I do. The top 10% pay over half the taxes (income tax). The numbers don't change a lot if you consider all forms of tax. What exactly do you consider a non overtax on the poor and a non undertax on the rich?






The top10% of incomes
 
Mathematician said:
Let's make it a flat tax with no deductions and nobody can rightfully ***** about it.
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i cannot see that happening, our tax code has been turned into a tool to use against people and a controlling device for government.

i dont favor a flat tax, but a comsunpton, a straight flat tax does remove some of the shackles of government, and as a consumption removes them all.

however government is not going to be in favor of removing any of the shackles that has been placed on us.
 
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Objective Voice said:
But even your above argument attempts to place the blame squarely on unions although you cleverly add life span and health care into the mix. All this tells me is you're fixated on blaming the other guy's political values on the problem when truth be told it wasn't just social engineering alone that caused the mess. Ask yourself why did auto companies leave Detroit even after auto unions were effectively destroyed, pension plans were effectively done away with and the state (I presume) shifted to a right-to-work state? Why did Detroit continue to have problems?

I can agree with you that unions played a significant role here, but you're being dishonest if you can't admit that there were other factors that were involved, i.e., a static tax code that never changed as industries left and local government did nothing to create incentives to lure new industry to the area, i.e., shipping. Or better yet, shift your business model to produce something other than cars.
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Nobody has said that they were the only cause, but they most certainly were a significant cause, perhaps the most significant cause. Why do you think that dodging that fact makes the argument wrong? Unions have demonstrably given massive amounts of money and influence to getting Democratic politicians elected for the express reason of funding and supporting their agenda. There is no question about this whatsoever. In fact, without their funding and influence, it's questionable whether these politicians would have gotten elected at all.

Detroit has problems because they have all of the financial requirements that they had before being a right-to-work state. Changing to right-to-work doesn't invalidate all of the union contracts they've written over the years.

Why don't you understand that?
 
Car assembly has not taken place within the city of Detroit since the 1920's. Automotive union activities can have had little effect since then. Why don't you understand that?
 
sawyerloggingon said:
Most Japanese cars sold in America are made in America by non union workers.

"More than 407,000 jobs in the U.S. are due to Japanese automakers and their dealers, reports the Japanese Automobile Manufacturers Association. And nowadays, Japanese makers are producing most of the cars they sell in the U.S. in North America -- 68% altogether."

7 in 10 Japanese cars sold in U.S. made in N. America
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Pardon, but I find that ironic. The Japanese worker is unionized in Japan but the US worker working for a Japanese company is not. Well we have cheap cars but at a cost.
 
rabbitcaebannog said:
Pardon, but I find that ironic. The Japanese worker is unionized in Japan but the US worker working for a Japanese company is not. Well we have cheap cars but at a cost.
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States and cities with non union auto workers are not declaring bankruptcy, see the difference?
 
YES YES YES, BLAME the unions for the FREE TRADE of Wall Street! KEEP the lies flowing!
 
Just because you don't have a Union doesn't mean you don't get decent pay.

Smart employers keep the Unions out by paying so well that the Union would only be a negative.

Detroit and other municipalities are choking on the pension plans. So any of you that have regular SS like I do, be thankful. Those guys didn't pay into SS and now the places that made all these promises are unable to fulfill them.


rabbitcaebannog said:
Pardon, but I find that ironic. The Japanese worker is unionized in Japan but the US worker working for a Japanese company is not. Well we have cheap cars but at a cost.
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Public sector unions and democrat politicians did this to Detroit. Look around. It is happening all over. This is the result when there is no one representing the fleeced taxpayer.

Sell the city. Negotiate with the retired union members the same way Obama did. Give them pennies on the dollar and be done with it. If you cannot pay them in cash give them a couple of acres of prime Detroit wasteland.

Then learn the lessons for the United States and back away from all of these monstrous deals like Obamacare and amnesty.
 
sawyerloggingon said:
States and cities with non union auto workers are not declaring bankruptcy, see the difference?
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Yes, let's take a close look at where those auto places relocated. Kentucky, Alabama, Mississippi, South Carolina and Tennessee which are all states that ranked in the top ten as far as America's poorest states- America’s Richest States - 24/7 Wall St.

So, they may not be declaring bankruptcy due to poor mismanagement but that does not mean that the state is in good health as far as percentage of poverty rate, income or employment rates. Having a large sector of people who cannot afford the basics is nothing to celebrate. Low wage states are not pushing up any kind of standard of living.
 
rabbitcaebannog said:
Yes, let's take a close look at where those auto places relocated. Kentucky, Alabama, Mississippi, South Carolina and Tennessee which are all states that ranked in the top ten as far as America's poorest states- America’s Richest States - 24/7 Wall St.

So, they may not be declaring bankruptcy due to poor mismanagement but that does not mean that the state is in good health as far as percentage of poverty rate, income or employment rates. Having a large sector of people who cannot afford the basics is nothing to celebrate. Low wage states are not pushing up any kind of standard of living.
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Facts are facts and the facts are Detroit declared bankruptcy while states that had right to work laws in place have picked up the jobs Detroit lost. Getting those jobs did not make those states poorer, it made them richer or at least less poor.
 
specklebang said:
Just because you don't have a Union doesn't mean you don't get decent pay.

Smart employers keep the Unions out by paying so well that the Union would only be a negative.

Detroit and other municipalities are choking on the pension plans. So any of you that have regular SS like I do, be thankful. Those guys didn't pay into SS and now the places that made all these promises are unable to fulfill them.
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No, unions push up wages when they are a threat. Once unions are in right to work states, they are no longer is a threat. Look at Michigan, they are a right to work state and their wages have been pushed down to half of what the former generation made. They are choking on pension plans due to mismanagement. Also, better watch out. There are some politicians that want to do with your social security what they are doing to public pensions.
 
sawyerloggingon said:
Facts are facts and the facts are Detroit declared bankruptcy while states that had right to work laws in place have picked up the jobs Detroit lost. Getting those jobs did not make those states poorer, it made them richer or at least less poor.
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Go ahead and prove that theory because I gave you proof that disputes it.
 
sawyerloggingon said:
You gave me proof that states that got the jobs Detroit lost are poorer now than before they got those jobs? Guess I missed that.
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Those jobs had went away long before what is happening now in Detroit. Part of the reason for its demise.
 
sawyerloggingon said:
They went away to right to work states. Detroit could not compete with Japanese cars made in them, POOF.
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Detroit could not compete with the cheap labor. They did toe the line and decided to lower wages in a country that no longer feels it needs unions or at least unions with any kind of negotiating power. Now everyone should be happy that we have added a whole new generation of the working insecure and poor to our rolls.
 
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