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Did unions bankrupt Detroit

Did unions bankrupt Detroit

  • Yes, unions killed Detroit

    Votes: 11 35.5%
  • No, unions are not at fault

    Votes: 20 64.5%

  • Total voters
    31
Even if I accept everything you say here, it doesn't hold water -- since public sector unions have done everything in their power to keep that same Democratic machine in office since forever.

Then there's nothing I or anyone can say to you to change your perspective on the matter since you've so firmly entrenched in the one facet your believe was the singular cause of the Detroit's economic downfall. It's sad really. Until you and others are willing to accept that there were other factors involved in how this proverbial cat was skinned, you'll hold true to your single-minded templated, ideological view point.

In short, you want to blame unions because you don't like them. But the truth is union benefits were NOT the only reason the city of Detroit fell apart.
 
No, the unions did not. The government, in bed with unions and other corruption, did. The foolish thing is that the electorate voted these same people in office for decade after decade, and not one of those elected officials ever did a damn thing to correct the problem. The most recent mayor may be an exception, but it was too little too late. If Detroit could manage to make the place attractive for business again, they could find their way out of this, but it will be painful. It's easy to understand that the pensions in question were not negotiated in good faith with the welfare of the entire city in mind. To demand now that the city honor the breech is pouring salt in the wound that the unions themselves created with a complicit government.
 
At a time when the auto industry is bouncing back Detroit goes bust? Maybe because auto manufacturers have moved to right to work states? Maybe because public unions in Detroit have wage and benefit packages that are out of hand? There is a lesson here, learn it.

Um, Detroit is a right to work state and I hear that they still have auto workers in the state only they are making half of what the last generation made. The same generation that had a very nice middle class life. Now they have made these workers insecure and in the ranks of the working poor. Great priorities.
 
I know it's easy to see things from that prism, especially if you hold strong conservative values, but pension funds whether corporate or government run don't bankrupt cities. Mismanagement does! Lack of adaptation i.e., not changing your city zoning or revamping enterprise zones) does! Refusing to change your financial structures (local tax codes) does! All of these things led to Detroit's demise. Anyone who thinks unions are to blame are just playing to their own politically ideological bend.

Unions are at least 50% to blame.
 
Um, Detroit is a right to work state and I hear that they still have auto workers in the state only they are making half of what the last generation made. The same generation that had a very nice middle class life. Now they have made these workers insecure and in the ranks of the working poor. Great priorities.

Michigan very recently became a right to work state, they in effect shut the barn door after the horses were gone.
 
It makes them a huge contributing factor and it could be argued that unions were the deciding factor in sending Detroit over a cliff.

I don't think anyone's arguing against that. I'm just saying that to blame union activity/pension funds alone is foolish. So much more goes into running/financing a city than the arrangement of union contracts whether proper or mismanaged.
 
I don't think anyone's arguing against that. I'm just saying that to blame union activity/pension funds alone is foolish. So much more goes into running/financing a city than the arrangement of union contracts whether proper or mismanaged.

Fair point and maybe the poll should have asked if unions were the deciding factor not the cause all by themselves but then again you may be nit picking here.
 
I'll tell you what I do think: I think the politicians who failed to fund these plans adequately belong in jail. You make the concessions in contract negotiations? You pay the piper. What you don't do is kick the can down the road and drive a city into bankruptcy.

These politicians who failed to increase tax rates or cut spending in order to fund their promises belong in jail.

Um, would that be all of our congress critters or do we look at their individual voting records. ;)
 
Only the original Ford factory at Highland Park was ever within the boundaries of Detroit. Car assembly was moved to Dearborn in the 1920's. The car-based premise of the OP would be laughable if it wasn't so tragic.
 
In short, you want to blame unions because you don't like them. But the truth is union benefits were NOT the only reason the city of Detroit fell apart.

No, they're not the only reason but they are a major contributing factor and they were, without question, the straw that broke the camel's back. That's the insidious nature of these massive union benefit packages, they get larger and larger and larger every year as more and more people qualify and modern medical technology keeps the retirees alive for longer.
 
Yeah, us democrats I know are not innocent but I think taxing people that can afford to chip in a little more would be nice....it's like "No!Don't take 25% of my 10,000,000$ I'm going to be in the poor house!


This sentiment never fails to make me laugh. We aren't talking about people making 10,000,0000 here. More like people making 100,000 or 150,000 or more, basically any 2 earner households where the wage earners have decent jobs.

And while that may be an above average family income, those people are not rich and a 25% tax bite hurts them.
 
I know it's easy to see things from that prism, especially if you hold strong conservative values, but pension funds whether corporate or government run don't bankrupt cities. Mismanagement does! Lack of adaptation i.e., not changing your city zoning or revamping enterprise zones) does! Refusing to change your financial structures (local tax codes) does! All of these things led to Detroit's demise. Anyone who thinks unions are to blame are just playing to their own politically ideological bend.

Exactly. It comes down to mismanagement of funds. So, you frame the argument as such and such is bad. Which is circular logic because to state a conclusion and automatically say the outcome is because of said conclusion is a logical fallacy. If the funds were handled responsibly, if the entire world economy did not take a major hit during the sub-prime meltdown, if LIBOR was not manipulated, if city officials did not make sweet heart deals etc, etc... we wouldn't even be having this discussion. But, a whole lot of corruption happened and we found a scapegoat.
 
Then there's nothing I or anyone can say to you to change your perspective on the matter since you've so firmly entrenched in the one facet your believe was the singular cause of the Detroit's economic downfall. It's sad really. Until you and others are willing to accept that there were other factors involved in how this proverbial cat was skinned, you'll hold true to your single-minded templated, ideological view point.

In short, you want to blame unions because you don't like them. But the truth is union benefits were NOT the only reason the city of Detroit fell apart.

They were not the only reason but at least half was firmly their doing. Detroit's gov't was doing pretty much what the federal gov't is doing now, borrowing/spending money that they had no intention of repaying via direct taxation. As the tax base fell, the gov't spending did not, they kidded themselves (we hope?) into thinking that some magical gov't program was going to turn things around fast enough that nobody would notice (or they were out of office, drawing ther own cushy gov't retirement checks).
 
At a time when the auto industry is bouncing back Detroit goes bust? Maybe because auto manufacturers have moved to right to work states? Maybe because public unions in Detroit have wage and benefit packages that are out of hand? There is a lesson here, learn it.



It is not because of Unions at all.


If you own a BMW, Mercedes or Volkswagon you are driving a Union vehicle. German carmakers are killing American car makers and German car companies are the most unionized companies in the entire world. They even have corporate unions for their white collar workers..


So no, it has nothing to do with Unions. At all. It DOES have something to do with something else, on the human level though.


Do read into what I'm saying.



On a side note. It is hilarious to watch some anti union American rant about how horrible unions are then brag about their German Union BMW or Mercedes car that is a full blown Union vehicle made my Union members.
 
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Fair point and maybe the poll should have asked if unions were the deciding factor not the cause all by themselves but then again you may be nit picking here.

You asked a question and provided two possible causes for Detroit's economic downfall. I fail to see how you could characterize me as being "nit picky" for suggesting that multiple factors could have led to the city's current financial woes.
 
At a time when the auto industry is bouncing back Detroit goes bust? Maybe because auto manufacturers have moved to right to work states? Maybe because public unions in Detroit have wage and benefit packages that are out of hand? There is a lesson here, learn it.




Poor management bankrupted Detroit
 
Why? Don't tell me you've bought into that NSA nonsense. ;)


The world is full of contradictions.


In America we have people who hate unions proudly driving BMW's and Mercedes, the two biggest unionized cars on the planet. The irony is huge in that there is a very high likelihood that said anti union Americans BMW or Mercedes was built by a German who is a union member. So the idiot is driving a German Union car designed and originally funded by Hitler and is on his/her way to an 'Anti Union Rally'. Oh yes.

And let's not forget the 'hot and bothered' minorities, feminists, gays and indignant 23 year old's that are driving to their 'Stop Hate' rally in their beloved VolksWagen designed by Adolf Hitler as the ideal car. Oh yes. It's all very interesting ; )
 
It is not because of Unions at all.


If you own a BMW, Mercedes or Volkswagon you are driving a Union vehicle. German carmakers are killing American car makers and German car companies are the most unionized companies in the entire world. They even have corporate unions for their white collar workers..


So no, it has nothing to do with Unions. At all. It DOES have something to do with something else, on the human level though.


Do read into what I'm saying.



On a side note. It is hilarious to watch some anti union American rant about how horrible unions are then brag about their German Union BMW or Mercedes car that is a full blown Union vehicle made my Union members.

Not to bust your bubble here, but the current Detroit city gov't financial problem has more to do with its own public employee unions (and their generous retirement benefit package deals) than anything to do with the auto industry unions. Loss of employers in the area is largely beyond the control of the Detroit city gov't, unless you think that they simply taxed too much or did not provide adequate city services.
 
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