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Is the age of a dead burglar,assailant,armed robber, attempted rapist/murder relavent

Is the age of a dead burglar,assailant,armed robber, attempted rapist/murder relavent


  • Total voters
    47
Re: Is the age of a dead burglar,assailant,armed robber, attempted rapist/murder rela

In questioning the prosecutor, Reuters asked about killing a "YOUNG child just walking home from the store" - meaning Reuters is going to continue to lie in its incessant campaign against American gun ownership.

BUT I answered MAYBE, because "burglars" were included in the list. For home defense we actual have our main firearms for that having a first round of a rubber bullet (or beanbag) if a shotgun. It would take 1/2 second at the most for a lethal round if truly necessary. Many on the forum criticize this, but in fact we often do have children at our home, many guests, many visitors and young kids can also be burglars. The rubber bullet/beanbag is a safeguard in that just-in-case a firearm left out, not correctly put away, or somehow gotten into by one of the younger kids - and because we would not want kill a friend, relative or guest - or an 11 year old who snuck in at night to steal something - ie burglar.

Interesting, I didn't know you could load bean bags into shotguns or rubber bullets into firearms as a first round. That sounds like a good idea, joko. I haven't read the criticisms...but...a firearm loaded with rubber bullets and "if left out, not correctly put away, or somehow got into the hands of younger kids" ...can still be lethal. I've seen the welts those rubber bullets produce and they ain't pretty and if one hit a child in the head it could easily kill them and if that didn't, the second more lethal round surely would. There really is no excuse for a leaving a loaded weapon easily accessible in a house with children present, whether it has rubber bullets in it or not.

Take "burglar" off the list and you have violent crimes, so then it doesn't matter - although I could bandy the word "assault" in the sense of some young kid throwing a violent tantrum. But "burglary?" Yes, I think age matters particularly in the castle doctrine states where you can shoot a burglar basically just to shoot them. I do not want to kill a young kid trying to steal something. I do not want any lethal accidental gun deaths at our home either - and that is the 1/2 second compromise for those reasons. But I also think that margin actually allows us to shoot faster in any questionable situation - plus that'd be a damn good lessen for a 13 year old sneaking in to steal something anyway.
Totally agree...except for the reason I mentioned above. If you're worried about not shooting a young kid trying to steal (which is not that uncommon) then why don't you get a security camera instead? That way you have the evidence and the kid isn't physically hurt or worse.

Even the castle doctrine mentions 'reasonable' and 'reasonable force' doesn't it?
 
Re: Is the age of a dead burglar,assailant,armed robber, attempted rapist/murder rela

By 16? No, they need to start realizing that if they think they are adults, they need to start acting like one, and also expect to be treated like an adult.

That's less clear to me...but I would accept it as a principled stance, anyway...only if they had the rights and priveleges of an adult.

If they don't have the rights, then it's wrong to demand the responsibility. In fact, it's rather backwards, more along the lines of police-state thinking, in which your responsibilities supercede your rights in every instance.
 
Re: Is the age of a dead burglar,assailant,armed robber, attempted rapist/murder rela

I think I answered the first question in my last post. Hopefully that was satisfactory, because with 17 trillion dollars in government deficit, businesses moving industry out of the country, others reducing full-time workers and replacing them with part-timers and temps, the huge student loan debt, the huge credit card debt, and banks trying to inflate the housing market again...I see the storm clouds a-comin.

I voted "maybe/other" because I think we have been doing teenagers a disservice by training them to think "it's all good until you turn 18." Especially when it really isn't.

So for me, if a juvenile is 13 or under, it should make a difference how they are treated in the OP's situation. If they are 14 or 15, I'm kinda on the fence. By 16? No, they need to start realizing that if they think they are adults, they need to start acting like one, and also expect to be treated like an adult.

What is funny is that you seem to want to disregard facts for how you THINK things should be. Observe a group of 16 year old boys or girls, and then come back here and tell me that you think they are adults. :roll:

Gosh, I spent all that time explaining to you how I was basically forced into an adult situation at the age of 16 and how much it overwhelmed me, how I was not ready for that kind of adult responsibility and how it affected my life, but you just brushed that off as if it is nothing. :doh So in other words, you don't care about teenagers and whether or not THEY are ready to take on life as adults with all the best preparation; all you care about is that you somehow think it is "unfair" that they are considered children now and think they should have to be more responsible, regardless of reality.

Thankfully, we try to base laws on FACTS rather than opinions. A simple fact that can be proven regarding just how responsible teens are can be proven by looking up teen automobile accident rates. Also, perhaps you should do some research on all of the information I gave, like the MRI scans which show actual PHYSICAL differences between the brain of a teen and the brain of an adult.
 
Re: Is the age of a dead burglar,assailant,armed robber, attempted rapist/murder rela

Well.. I remember reading a news story a while back about a young boy given a gun shooting his brother. So I ask you...Was Age relevant?
 
Re: Is the age of a dead burglar,assailant,armed robber, attempted rapist/murder rela

You do realize that 16 IS the age of consent in the majority of American States? 31 plus D.C. to be exact. There are 8 where it is 17 and only 11 where it is 18. Also, Most European nations are at 16, with the exception of maybe 4 where it is 18? (Poland, Andorra, Slovakia and some other...) in fact 90% of the nations of the world consider 16 the age of consent, including Canada.

I'm not asking to lower it. I am simply stating that if it weren't for our current standards of health, food availability, lack of predation, and so on...16 would be the age when a young man and woman started a family and took care of their own business. History shows they were both fully capable and did it well, if they were brought up expecting they would do so.

I just have to point out how this statement completely ignores how much life has changed. Do you want more burger flippers and minimum-wage earners? Because 16 years old is certainly not old enough to be educated enough to join the work force and be successful.

If this is what you want, I certainly hope you are prepared to raise minimum wage to say 12-15 dollars an hour so that these 16 year olds who lack an education that is complete enough for them to be able to get a job that pays more than minimum wage so that they can provide for their families. :roll:

Do you realize how hypocritical your stance on this issue is?
 
Re: Is the age of a dead burglar,assailant,armed robber, attempted rapist/murder rela

I feel that the age of official adulthood should be 18 years old because that gives a person sufficient time to mature, obtain some kind of experience (but even that is only a little), and at least complete a primary education, and even that is less than sufficient to obtain any kind of good employment in today's society. THINK PEOPLE! Good God!
 
Re: Is the age of a dead burglar,assailant,armed robber, attempted rapist/murder rela

What I am against is stupidity.....and conservatism......even if it is necessary..
It is NOT necessary to kill the thief.
Has anyone ever heard of "non-lethal" ???
And , YES ! We should know the age of the criminal..
In this case, the teenager should be treated as an adult....and was....un-necessarily.
 
Re: Is the age of a dead burglar,assailant,armed robber, attempted rapist/murder rela

It was relevant in this case because the media manipulated the public into believing Trayvon was just a "little boy" skipping home with his little bag of candy as opposed to a full grown young man sauntering home after smoking a big spleef.
Bull !
Some media may have tried this sham, but I trust any one source - NEVER.
And, Martin was neither..
That he is dead , un-necessarily , is lost with the conservatives.
 
Re: Is the age of a dead burglar,assailant,armed robber, attempted rapist/murder rela

Old enough to do the crime, old enough to except the consequences.

To an extent............
A two year old can "murder"..
And a 20 year old can still be a child...
This line has two dimensions..
There must be even more than a "double standard" ...high court determined standards..
 
Re: Is the age of a dead burglar,assailant,armed robber, attempted rapist/murder rela

What is funny is that you seem to want to disregard facts for how you THINK things should be. Observe a group of 16 year old boys or girls, and then come back here and tell me that you think they are adults. :roll:

Gosh, I spent all that time explaining to you how I was basically forced into an adult situation at the age of 16 and how much it overwhelmed me, how I was not ready for that kind of adult responsibility and how it affected my life, but you just brushed that off as if it is nothing. :doh So in other words, you don't care about teenagers and whether or not THEY are ready to take on life as adults with all the best preparation; all you care about is that you somehow think it is "unfair" that they are considered children now and think they should have to be more responsible, regardless of reality.

Thankfully, we try to base laws on FACTS rather than opinions. A simple fact that can be proven regarding just how responsible teens are can be proven by looking up teen automobile accident rates. Also, perhaps you should do some research on all of the information I gave, like the MRI scans which show actual PHYSICAL differences between the brain of a teen and the brain of an adult.

It's funny how your entire point revolves around how YOU "think" things ought to be. Not very logical to attack my position when your's is based on the same mode of thought. Your "facts" as just personal observations and assumptions. They are not "children" in the purset sense of the term, they are young adults and are capable of dealing with the responsibility for their actions.

The main difference between a 16 year-old and a 60 year-old is experience. That answers your "automobile accident" claim.

I know I know, you are going to bring up that "brain development" stuff. Well that brain difference has been around ever since mankind has walked the earth and didn't make a bit of difference in "adulthood" for teenanger's in all that time. THAT"S a FACT.

If a 16 year-old is involvded in a break-in, assault, murder, or any other violent crime...he should be treated as an adult for engaging in an adult crime. The ONLY difference I would allow is separation in juvenile penal institutions until 21, then transfer to "The Big House" if his crime was a "Big House" crime. That IS an opinion.

I feel that the age of official adulthood should be 18 years old because that gives a person sufficient time to mature, obtain some kind of experience (but even that is only a little), and at least complete a primary education, and even that is less than sufficient to obtain any kind of good employment in today's society. THINK PEOPLE! Good God!

Sorry but THIS is just an emotional appeal, also based on your personal opinions developed from personal experiences. My experiences are different. The world is full of people who have lived happy, successful lives starting them younger than your arbitrary 18 age minimum. Your "18" choice is not even supported by your reference to "brain differences" which would push the age, depending on the person, back to 21 or 22 to remain consistent with your idea of actual maturity.

Ignoring the fact that people even younger than 16 have, for the bulk of human existence, been fully functional as adults in society, simply because you felt unprepared for the responsibility of bad choices made at that age remains not a fact, but a personal opinion.
 
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Re: Is the age of a dead burglar,assailant,armed robber, attempted rapist/murder rela

spleef... haven't heard that in a while.:pimpdaddy:

Amazingly enough, with the help of MSM, many still think he was a 'little' boy.

Change the "many" to some and we will have some truth.
And, I could care less about what "some" "think" .
I use both Fox, MSN, and NPR for the info...
 
Re: Is the age of a dead burglar,assailant,armed robber, attempted rapist/murder rela

It's funny how your entire point revolves around how YOU "think" things ought to be. Not very logical to attack my position when your's is based on the same mode of thought. Your "facts" as just personal observations and assumptions. They are not "children" in the purset sense of the term, they are young adults and are capable of dealing with the responsibility for their actions.

The main difference between a 16 year-old and a 60 year-old is experience. That answers your "automobile accident" claim.

I know I know, you are going to bring up that "brain development" stuff. Well that brain difference has been around ever since mankind has walked the earth and didn't make a bit of difference in "adulthood" for teenanger's in all that time. THAT"S a FACT.

If a 16 year-old is involvded in a break-in, assault, murder, or any other violent crime...he should be treated as an adult for engaging in an adult crime. The ONLY difference I would allow is separation in juvenile penal institutions until 21, then transfer to "The Big House" if his crime was a "Big House" crime. That IS an opinion.

Interesting! I see how you avoided addressing any of the points I made. How do you make up for the fact that a teenager is NOT an adult in today's society. Sorry but that is the fact here. You may want to deny that, but all the evidence points to it.

No, they should only be charged as an adult when they are fully an adult. Since they could not possibly support themselves or a family and are still dependent upon their parents (the majority of times) at 16 years old, then that person is still a child.

The reason they get into automobile accidents is because of how the brain is wired. They are reckless drivers, check the stats. They are reckless drivers because they normally don't have any fear, which is normal for a CHILD. Experience is CERTAINLY not the only difference. These statistics span from ages of 16 to I think early 20s. Google stuff and learn. It doesn't take YEARS of experience to know not to speed or drive recklessly either, so that point is rather silly. They do it because they THINK they can handle it.

What you stated about in your last paragraph is already how it works. We don't put 16 year old kids in gen pop in prisons with adults. Unless you are referring to separate them from younger juveniles, I can't be sure. It's rather vague.
 
Re: Is the age of a dead burglar,assailant,armed robber, attempted rapist/murder rela

I noticed that some of the Treyvon Martin supporters keep bringing up the fact he was a kid and I know some people think it does matter that an assailant was a minor.So I thought I would ask the following question- Is the age of a dead burglar,assailant,bank robber, attempted rapist/murder relevant? For example if a burglar is killed inside someone's home should the homeowner be in legal trouble if that burglar is a minor? If a bank robber is killed while trying to rob a bank and that bank robber is a minor should that concerned citizen or security guard be in legal trouble?

To me his age is irrelevant. If someone breaks into my house then I'll do what I have to to protect my family or property. What I won't do is go follow them around or call the police on someone that is just standing outside talking on the phone. The Zimmerman case is so far and away unrelated from a case where someone breaks in to your house that any kind of comparison is simply laughable.
 
Re: Is the age of a dead burglar,assailant,armed robber, attempted rapist/murder rela

Interesting! I see how you avoided addressing any of the points I made. How do you make up for the fact that a teenager is NOT an adult in today's society. Sorry but that is the fact here. You may want to deny that, but all the evidence points to it.

I only ignored it because I thought I had addressed it in prior posts. (Sigh) Yes, currently our society considers people 16 and 17 (even 18 -20 regarding drinking except when you are in the military and on a military installation) "minors." That's been the case for about 100 - 120 years? Not sure offhand, exactly when the first child labor laws came into effect which applied to people 16 -18. That's a drop in the bucket for human existence, not even a "second" on the time clock. That has mostly to do with the affluence of our current society, which could change at any time in the next few years. Doesn't change the fact that a person at that age is capable of making, acting on, and dealing with adult decisions.

No, they should only be charged as an adult when they are fully an adult. Since they could not possibly support themselves or a family and are still dependent upon their parents (the majority of times) at 16 years old, then that person is still a child.

Now, who is drifting off point? The OP asked about age in respect to criminality. I provided a valid position on it. I've already told you we are simply going to have to agree to disagree because in dangerous situations I don't think being 16 deserves an automatic pass, while you do. Our society's current stance on coddling teenagers does not change this point of view for me in the slightest, because I think it is the primary cause leading to teenage foolhardiness.

Forgive me if I don't address your last couple of points because, to me at least, they remain irrelevant.
 
Re: Is the age of a dead burglar,assailant,armed robber, attempted rapist/murder rela

That's less clear to me...but I would accept it as a principled stance, anyway...only if they had the rights and priveleges of an adult.

If they don't have the rights, then it's wrong to demand the responsibility. In fact, it's rather backwards, more along the lines of police-state thinking, in which your responsibilities supercede your rights in every instance.

Well, currently at 16 in most states you can get a drivers license. At 16 in most states you've reached the age of sexual consent. At 16 in most states you are able to marry (although a number require parental consent). At 16 in all states you can get a job. At 16 in most states you can be emancipated and be considered a legal adult.

It is true that our society legally considers 16 and 17 year-olds minors in most areas, and I am not necessarily advocating this should change. What I am advocating is a move away from thinking of them as children and a move back towards using this period to instruct them on how to be good adults. In my view, you do that by giving them responsibility then making sure they are aware that they can and will be held responsible for their actions. At that point, just how responsible is determined on a case by case basis.
 
Re: Is the age of a dead burglar,assailant,armed robber, attempted rapist/murder rela

Well, currently at 16 in most states you can get a drivers license. At 16 in most states you've reached the age of sexual consent. At 16 in most states you are able to marry (although a number require parental consent).

With parental consent mean you do not have the rights of an adult. By definition.

At 16 in all states you can get a job. At 16 in most states you can be emancipated and be considered a legal adult.

You cannot get emancipated because you feel like it and consider yourself an adult, however. There needs be extenuating circumstances.

At any rate, as you no doubt are aware, I could easily the name the "adult" things that 16-year-olds cannot do. So I'm not sure the point of any of these, since logically the exclusions roughly cancel them out.


But yes, I agree with you that teenagers can and should be taught responsibility. But to mandate it through the state, as in "criminally an adult but not in any other way"--my single point of contention--is police state thinking. Again, by definition. (And you do have the word "libertarian" in your profile, after all).

In other words, parents ought to teach their children more responsibility. Trite, but yes, perfectly reasonable.

Legally?...nope.
 
Re: Is the age of a dead burglar,assailant,armed robber, attempted rapist/murder rela

What is funny is that you seem to want to disregard facts for how you THINK things should be. Observe a group of 16 year old boys or girls, and then come back here and tell me that you think they are adults. :roll:
.



Hi. Observer of human nature here... :)

I've spent time observing the behavior of the teenager in his natural habitat. Plus, I was one once, and I raised one. :)


My conclusion: 16yo's in my day (late70s/early80s) were fairly crazy but still far more responsible than most current-day 16yo's. I've observed them in various settings and concluded most of them don't know water is wet or fire burns, and they're kind of vague on the idea that death is permanent. When they accumulate in herds, they lose IQ points.... one hundred teenagers within a ball-field sized area has the collective IQ of a smart shoelace.

But then I look at my own son, who is 17... and who was deliberately and purposefully raised to be responsible and serious and to know reality down at the nitty-gritty-dirt level... and at 16 he was functionally an adult in most regards. I rarely issue "commands" to him anymore... there's rarely ever any need. I offer advice and suggestions and general guidance (set the guardrails) and let him drive as he pleases as long as he stays on the metaphorical right road. It works for us... because I raised him that way on purpose.

Of course, there was one unexpected side-effect... he can barely tolerate other teenagers and mostly prefers the company of adults. Hmmm.... on the whole that isn't the worst thing in the world either, since as I noted above teenage IQ declines in groups... :mrgreen:
 
Re: Is the age of a dead burglar,assailant,armed robber, attempted rapist/murder rela

With parental consent mean you do not have the rights of an adult. By definition.

Yet once you ARE married you carry all the rights and responsibilities of marriage, your mommies and daddies notwithstanding. :)

You cannot get emancipated because you feel like it and consider yourself an adult, however. There needs be extenuating circumstances.

Not necessarily, that also depends on the state. Most states have an emancipation law allowing the appropriate level of Court (usually Juvenile Court) to review the request. Approval typically requires these conditions:

(1) wishes to be free from parental control and protection and no longer needs that control and protection;
(2) has sufficient money for the child's own support;
(3) understands the consequences of being free from parental control and protection; and
(4) has an acceptable plan for independent living.

At any rate, as you no doubt are aware, I could easily the name the "adult" things that 16-year-olds cannot do. So I'm not sure the point of any of these, since logically the exclusions roughly cancel them out.

No doubt. But my point was not to show such minors are now considered adults, simply to indicate in every state they are already granted certain adult responsibilites but few people seem to be preparing them for adulthood. Suddenly, they are 18 and **** hits the fan.

But yes, I agree with you that teenagers can and should be taught responsibility. But to mandate it through the state, as in "criminally an adult but not in any other way"--my single point of contention--is police state thinking. Again, by definition. (And you do have the word "libertarian" in your profile, after all).

The OP asked should age have any effect on a list of criminal acts. I gave my opinion based on age breakdowns. I think that a "minor" aged 16 or older who takes an adult action like those listed should be considered an adult in the event he has been harmed by his actions. Don't cry "Oh, he's a child, you should have waited before you shot him!" If he's pointing a gun at me, trying to stab me with a knife, has broken into my house to do some criminal act in the middle of the night...and finds himself dead or wounded as a result? TOUGH NUGGIES.

On the rest (about parental rather that State responsibilities) we agree.
 
Re: Is the age of a dead burglar,assailant,armed robber, attempted rapist/murder rela

Hi. Observer of human nature here... :)

I've spent time observing the behavior of the teenager in his natural habitat. Plus, I was one once, and I raised one. :)


My conclusion: 16yo's in my day (late70s/early80s) were fairly crazy but still far more responsible than most current-day 16yo's. I've observed them in various settings and concluded most of them don't know water is wet or fire burns, and they're kind of vague on the idea that death is permanent. When they accumulate in herds, they lose IQ points.... one hundred teenagers within a ball-field sized area has the collective IQ of a smart shoelace.

But then I look at my own son, who is 17... and who was deliberately and purposefully raised to be responsible and serious and to know reality down at the nitty-gritty-dirt level... and at 16 he was functionally an adult in most regards. I rarely issue "commands" to him anymore... there's rarely ever any need. I offer advice and suggestions and general guidance (set the guardrails) and let him drive as he pleases as long as he stays on the metaphorical right road. It works for us... because I raised him that way on purpose.

Of course, there was one unexpected side-effect... he can barely tolerate other teenagers and mostly prefers the company of adults. Hmmm.... on the whole that isn't the worst thing in the world either, since as I noted above teenage IQ declines in groups... :mrgreen:

And in what ways is he an adult? How do you test for such things? Do you think he could support a family and raise a child?
 
Re: Is the age of a dead burglar,assailant,armed robber, attempted rapist/murder rela

And in what ways is he an adult? How do you test for such things? Do you think he could support a family and raise a child?


While I would prefer he wait on that (he is currently engaged in vocational training that will not be complete for a couple more years)... if he had to, yes I think he could support a family and raise a child. Probably fairly well too. He is terribly serious of mind and dreadfully responsible. :)


You DO know that married-with-a-baby-en-route at 17 or 18 used to be pretty commonplace, just a generation ago right?

Not saying its ideal, but it USED to work out reasonably well for millions and millions of folks...
 
Re: Is the age of a dead burglar,assailant,armed robber, attempted rapist/murder rela

While I would prefer he wait on that (he is currently engaged in vocational training that will not be complete for a couple more years)... if he had to, yes I think he could support a family and raise a child. Probably fairly well too. He is terribly serious of mind and dreadfully responsible. :)


You DO know that married-with-a-baby-en-route at 17 or 18 used to be pretty commonplace, just a generation ago right?

Not saying its ideal, but it USED to work out reasonably well for millions and millions of folks...

OMG! You should really hope that doesn't happen. :doh

Again, ignoring changes in our society. A generation ago? PUHLEESE!

How would your son support his family?
 
Re: Is the age of a dead burglar,assailant,armed robber, attempted rapist/murder rela

OMG! You should really hope that doesn't happen. :doh

Again, ignoring changes in our society. A generation ago? PUHLEESE!

How would your son support his family?


I DO hope that doesn't happen anytime soon. We have put our heads together and have a plan for him, whereby he will be in a much better financial position to consider marriage and family in approximately another 3 to 5 years. He is in agreement.


However, life can happen anytime. If he had to support a family I suppose he'd have to get a job, just like any other man...


Oh wait... he already has a job. And goes to school. :mrgreen:
 
Re: Is the age of a dead burglar,assailant,armed robber, attempted rapist/murder rela

I DO hope that doesn't happen anytime soon. We have put our heads together and have a plan for him, whereby he will be in a much better financial position to consider marriage and family in approximately another 3 to 5 years. He is in agreement.


However, life can happen anytime. If he had to support a family I suppose he'd have to get a job, just like any other man...


Oh wait... he already has a job. And goes to school. :mrgreen:

Yeah, cute smiley. :roll: Anyhow, you know as well as I do that he doesn't have enough education under his belt to be able to support a family without help. I cannot believe anyone would advocate for this.
 
Re: Is the age of a dead burglar,assailant,armed robber, attempted rapist/murder rela

And what about kids like me, who were NOT ready to be thrust into adulthood? There are more of them than ones who are ready at 16. So just to hell with them? If they don't have good parents who teach them things, to hell with them? They pay the price anyways?
 
Re: Is the age of a dead burglar,assailant,armed robber, attempted rapist/murder rela

Yeah, cute smiley. :roll: Anyhow, you know as well as I do that he doesn't have enough education under his belt to be able to support a family without help. I cannot believe anyone would advocate for this.


Didn't say I was advocating it; pretty sure I specifically said we had a plan for him that included putting off marriage/family for another 4-5 years for him to get financially squared away.

However, I've known plenty of men who lacked a college education, and some who lacked a diploma, who managed to provide adequately for a family anyway. How? By sucking it up and doing the necessary. Not fun, but it can be done.

Is it ideal? No. But a lot of life turns out to be less than ideal, much of the time...
 
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