Is the age of a dead burglar,assailant,armed robber, attempted rapist/murder relavent

Re: Is the age of a dead burglar,assailant,armed robber, attempted rapist/murder rela

ChrisL said:

Children are a product of the culture in which they are raised. Therefore, comparing today's standards with standards of many, many years ago cannot stand up to scrutiny. We are not going back to the old days. Children and teens are not going to assume the responsibilities that they were forced to back in the old days of history.

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Part of our problem, as I see it, is that we have so much leisure time, and are living so much longer, we tend to coddle our children. Understandable; we want whats best for them and we want them to enjoy their youth as long as possible.

However, children remain children, and teens remain teens. The culture or locale wherein they are raised does not change their basic natures. Were the world to fall apart tomorrow, they would quickly revert back to exactly the types of behaviors of teens and children you currently reject as "from the past." That's human nature.

Besides which, children currently "assume the responsibilities that they were forced to back in the old days of history." You just don't see it. Lot's of teens are working, getting married, taking care of their own business even now, here in the U.S.A. It's only kids of the so-called "middle" and "upper" classes who most often endure the coddling you are talking about. Even then, maybe more so, they act out and rebel at their limitations.

ChrisL said:

Also, we now know more about the brain than we ever have and have made some fascinating discoveries, which will probably lead us to increasing things like age of consent, etc. Yes, children are impulsive and also most often than not incapable of critical-thinking skills. Whether or not these things are leftover survival mechanisms is another debate entirely, but the facts remain.

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Your hope. I don't agree. I ran away when I was 16, lived on the streets, and only came back to live with my grandmother to finish high school. I was not alone and I took care of my business. Telling a teen "you are a child and too young to make decisions" will usually result in acting out, and deceptive behaviors. They will continue to have sex, do drugs, commit crimes of vandalism etc., despite all efforts at coddling. Just because you want to consider them children, doesn't make it so. Sorry, we often agree, but I prefer looking at this realistically.

Re: Is the age of a dead burglar,assailant,armed robber, attempted rapist/murder rela

Captain Adverse said:

Part of our problem, as I see it, is that we have so much leisure time, and are living so much longer, we tend to coddle our children. Understandable; we want whats best for them and we want them to enjoy their youth as long as possible.

However, children remain children, and teens remain teens. The culture or locale wherein they are raised does not change their basic natures. Were the world to fall apart tomorrow, they would quickly revert back to exactly the types of behaviors of teens and children you currently reject as "from the past." That's human nature.

Besides which, children currently "assume the responsibilities that they were forced to back in the old days of history." You just don't see it. Lot's of teens are working, getting married, taking care of their own business even now, here in the U.S.A. It's only kids of the so-called "middle" and "upper" classes who most often endure the coddling you are talking about. Even then, maybe more so, they act out and rebel at their limitations.



Your hope. I don't agree. I ran away when I was 16, lived on the streets, and only came back to live with my grandmother to finish high school. I was not alone and I took care of my business. Telling a teen "you are a child and too young to make decisions" will usually result in acting out, and deceptive behaviors. They will continue to have sex, do drugs, commit crimes of vandalism etc., despite all efforts at coddling. Just because you want to consider them children, doesn't make it so. Sorry, we often agree, but I prefer looking at this realistically.

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I disagree with your entire premise. Teenagers should not be considered adults until they have completed an education and can be self sufficient in today's society. That isn't until age 18 at least.

Re: Is the age of a dead burglar,assailant,armed robber, attempted rapist/murder rela

ChrisL said:

I disagree with your entire premise. Teenagers should not be considered adults until they have completed an education and can be self sufficient in today's society. That isn't until age 18 at least.

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That's fine. We can agree to disagree. You have a right to your opinion. I prefer to let people decide for themselves and believe that choice starts around age 16. That's just my opinion.

Re: Is the age of a dead burglar,assailant,armed robber, attempted rapist/murder rela

Captain Adverse said:

That's fine. We can agree to disagree. You have a right to your opinion. I prefer to let people decide for themselves and believe that choice starts around age 16. That's just my opinion.

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Well, as a person who had a child at 16, I can tell you that I was much too young and immature for that kind of responsibility and in no way an adult at that age. You wouldn't believe some the absolutely stupid thoughts I had at that age. I completely disagree. MOST 16 year olds are not responsible adults.

It's nobody's "fault" either. It's just the way of the world and progress, technological, medical, etc.

Re: Is the age of a dead burglar,assailant,armed robber, attempted rapist/murder rela

Captain Adverse said:

That's fine. We can agree to disagree. You have a right to your opinion. I prefer to let people decide for themselves and believe that choice starts around age 16. That's just my opinion.

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I think they're ready to fly at 16.... just not solo.


In earlier cultures where adulthood came at 14 or 15, it was nonetheless typical that the teenager was still under the authority of a mature adult... whether it be their father (Roman Paterfamilias... in some periods you were under your father's rule until he died, even if you were 40), the master craftsman they were apprenticed to, or their Centurion or Sergeant or what have you. They weren't just cut loose to make all their own decisions without the guidance of more mature heads.

Re: Is the age of a dead burglar,assailant,armed robber, attempted rapist/murder rela

ChrisL said:

Well, as a person who had a child at 16, I can tell you that I was much too young and immature for that kind of responsibility and in no way an adult at that age. You wouldn't believe some the absolutely stupid thoughts I had at that age. I completely disagree. MOST 16 year olds are not responsible adults.

It's nobody's "fault" either. It's just the way of the world and progress, technological, medical, etc.

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But look how you turned out, not half-bad. Do you love your child any less for having it at 16? Do you REALLY think people who have one in their 20's or 30's are better at raising one? Maybe more financially secure, but not necessarily better. They had to learn and endure the lessons too.

As for being "responsible" adults, that has more to do with how they are being raised. If a child is raised to accept responsibilty he can act responsibly. We don't do that anymore. We tell them, "you are not responsible until you are 18!" Sooo, they think they have a get-out-of-jail-free card until then. Of course they act the fool, it's just "high-jinks".... until it's not and someone dies or goes to jail.

That wasn't the case when I was growing up. This "Dr. Spock" coddling of children started around that time but youth back then WAS more responsible in the main. The more you train a teen to be a "child" the more likely you are to develop adults with a juvenile mentality. The sooner you start giving a teen responsibility and the respect that goes with it, the sooner they learn to be responsible adults.

Re: Is the age of a dead burglar,assailant,armed robber, attempted rapist/murder rela

Goshin said:

I think they're ready to fly at 16.... just not solo.


In earlier cultures where adulthood came at 14 or 15, it was nonetheless typical that the teenager was still under the authority of a mature adult... whether it be their father (Roman Paterfamilias... in some periods you were under your father's rule until he died, even if you were 40), the master craftsman they were apprenticed to, or their Centurion or Sergeant or what have you. They weren't just cut loose to make all their own decisions without the guidance of more mature heads.

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I agree. You start teaching teens responsiblity, let them experience it, and they are better for it.

Re: Is the age of a dead burglar,assailant,armed robber, attempted rapist/murder rela

Captain Adverse said:

But look how you turned out, not half-bad. Do you love your child any less for having it at 16? Do you REALLY think people who have one in their 20's or 30's are better at raising one? Maybe more financially secure, but not necessarily better. They had to learn and endure the lessons too.

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How would you know? You don't know anything about me. Yes, I totally think people who are in the 20s and 30s are WAY better at raising children. I was still a child myself and very self-centered still. I had just about zero maternal instinct at that age. Funny thing when I got into my 20s, I suddenly wanted to have a baby. NOT at 16. I missed out on a big part of my childhood, lost a LOT of my friends and felt isolated much of the time.

As for being "responsible" adults, that has more to do with how they are being raised. If a child is raised to accept responsibilty he can act responsibly. We don't do that anymore. We tell them, "you are not responsible until you are 18!" Sooo, they think they have a get-out-of-jail-free card until then. Of course they act the fool, it's just "high-jinks".... until it's not and someone dies or goes to jail.

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Absolutely untrue. I know a brother and sister, raised the same way, same parents of course. Two completely different individuals. The sister had a good head on her shoulders, the brother not so much. And I completely disagree with "you are not responsible until you are 18" theory, because most 16 year olds DO think they are adults, but to other adults not so much.

That wasn't the case when I was growing up. This "Dr. Spock" coddling of children started around that time but youth back then WAS more responsible in the main. The more you train a teen to be a "child" the more likely you are to develop adults with a juvenile mentality. The sooner you start giving a teen responsibility and the respect that goes with it, the sooner they learn to be responsible adults.

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Disagree due to my own personal experience, that of friends, observing my own child, studies I've read, discussions I've participated in, MRI scans of teenager brains, etc.

Re: Is the age of a dead burglar,assailant,armed robber, attempted rapist/murder rela

I wouldn't trust anyone who wants to lower the age of consent. I MUST question their motives when 18 is only two more years. Why so young? Why not let them be children until they are 18, when all of the evidence points to the fact that most teens are actually still children?

Re: Is the age of a dead burglar,assailant,armed robber, attempted rapist/murder rela

Captain Adverse said:

But look how you turned out, not half-bad. Do you love your child any less for having it at 16? Do you REALLY think people who have one in their 20's or 30's are better at raising one? Maybe more financially secure, but not necessarily better. They had to learn and endure the lessons too.

As for being "responsible" adults, that has more to do with how they are being raised. If a child is raised to accept responsibilty he can act responsibly. We don't do that anymore. We tell them, "you are not responsible until you are 18!" Sooo, they think they have a get-out-of-jail-free card until then. Of course they act the fool, it's just "high-jinks".... until it's not and someone dies or goes to jail.

That wasn't the case when I was growing up. This "Dr. Spock" coddling of children started around that time but youth back then WAS more responsible in the main. The more you train a teen to be a "child" the more likely you are to develop adults with a juvenile mentality. The sooner you start giving a teen responsibility and the respect that goes with it, the sooner they learn to be responsible adults.

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This was why I raised my son the way I did.

When he was 9yo, I had a Bobcat (skidloader) on loan for some weeks, clearing some land. He was fascinated by it and wanted to drive it.... so, very carefully and under much supervision, I spent a whole morning teaching him how to operate the thing. Then when he had the hang of it, he was ready to leave and go play... I said "Oh no, time to pay it back... now that you know how to run that thing, you're doing some work with it."

He spent a large chunk of that afternoon, and probably 20 more hours over the next few weeks, running that bobcat and doing WORK with it, work I wanted done. In the process he learned that a skid-loader isn't a toy, it has a purpose. He had a couple of close calls but I was always watching him and made sure he didn't do anything really dangerous.

The other kids at school didn't believe him when he told them he drove a Bobcat. The next time they saw me that was the only thing they ALL instantly wanted to ask, was it true? When I said "yes", they looked awestruck.

I took much the same approach to other things, like guns, driving cars, chainsaws and felling trees... I taught him everything I could, and then when he learned it I required him to put it to use for the common good of his family.

Now he's 17, and while he still has a lot to learn he is far more responsible and serious-minded than 99% of his peers.


They CAN be taught!

Re: Is the age of a dead burglar,assailant,armed robber, attempted rapist/murder rela

ChrisL said:

How would you know? You don't know anything about me. Yes, I totally think people who are in the 20s and 30s are WAY better at raising children. I was still a child myself and very self-centered still. I had just about zero maternal instinct at that age. Funny thing when I got into my 20s, I suddenly wanted to have a baby. NOT at 16. I missed out on a big part of my childhood, lost a LOT of my friends and felt isolated much of the time.

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Forgive me, I was simply basing the first comment on how together your response were here in the forum. If you are not doing okay, my apologies. I was also making the point that "in the bad old days" a girl would not necessarily be left alone to fend for her child's welfare. The boy was often held accountable too. Not always of course or we wouldn't have so many soap opera tales either.

ChrisL said:

Absolutely untrue. I know a brother and sister, raised the same way, same parents of course. Two completely different individuals. The sister had a good head on her shoulders, the brother not so much. And I completely disagree with "you are not responsible until you are 18" theory, because most 16 year olds DO think they are adults, but to other adults not so much.

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The fact that they were two completely different individuals is a fact of life, not of environment. Or of age.

I don't agree (about the 18 yo thing). Oh yes, 16 yo's think they are adults (and they are) we just refuse to TREAT them like adults. That's why when they do act the fool they either get away with it or they do something so stupid we punish them like adults anyway. If we started treating them like adults at that age, I believe they would be less likely to act like juveniles. That's what history has shown anyway...Alexander was around 16 when he conquered Greece.

ChrisL said:

Disagree due to my own personal experience, that of friends, observing my own child, studies I've read, discussions I've participated in, MRI scans of teenager brains, etc.

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And I counter with MY personal experiences, that of freinds, etc., etc. etc. I also raise you with the whole of prior human history before the last 100 years.

Re: Is the age of a dead burglar,assailant,armed robber, attempted rapist/murder rela

ChrisL said:

I wouldn't trust anyone who wants to lower the age of consent. I MUST question their motives when 18 is only two more years. Why so young? Why not let them be children until they are 18, when all of the evidence points to the fact that most teens are actually still children?

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A teens body grows a lot faster than their brain. So I'm inclined to agree.

Of course theres always the exceptions who grow up taking care of their parents and siblings and are more mature than most adults.

Re: Is the age of a dead burglar,assailant,armed robber, attempted rapist/murder rela

Moot said:

A teens body grows a lot faster than their brain. So I'm inclined to agree.

Of course theres always the exceptions who grow up taking care of their parents and siblings and are more mature than most adults.

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Of course, there are always going to be those who mature faster, but it's a good idea when dealing with such issues to overestimate rather than underestimate IMO.

Re: Is the age of a dead burglar,assailant,armed robber, attempted rapist/murder rela

Goshin said:

This was why I raised my son the way I did.

When he was 9yo, I had a Bobcat (skidloader) on loan for some weeks, clearing some land. He was fascinated by it and wanted to drive it.... so, very carefully and under much supervision, I spent a whole morning teaching him how to operate the thing. Then when he had the hang of it, he was ready to leave and go play... I said "Oh no, time to pay it back... now that you know how to run that thing, you're doing some work with it."

He spent a large chunk of that afternoon, and probably 20 more hours over the next few weeks, running that bobcat and doing WORK with it, work I wanted done. In the process he learned that a skid-loader isn't a toy, it has a purpose. He had a couple of close calls but I was always watching him and made sure he didn't do anything really dangerous.

The other kids at school didn't believe him when he told them he drove a Bobcat. The next time they saw me that was the only thing they ALL instantly wanted to ask, was it true? When I said "yes", they looked awestruck.

I took much the same approach to other things, like guns, driving cars, chainsaws and felling trees... I taught him everything I could, and then when he learned it I required him to put it to use for the common good of his family.

Now he's 17, and while he still has a lot to learn he is far more responsible and serious-minded than 99% of his peers.


They CAN be taught!

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Egg-Zackly!! And by the way AWESOME dude!

Re: Is the age of a dead burglar,assailant,armed robber, attempted rapist/murder rela

Captain Adverse said:

ChrisL said:

How would you know? You don't know anything about me. Yes, I totally think people who are in the 20s and 30s are WAY better at raising children. I was still a child myself and very self-centered still. I had just about zero maternal instinct at that age. Funny thing when I got into my 20s, I suddenly wanted to have a baby. NOT at 16. I missed out on a big part of my childhood, lost a LOT of my friends and felt isolated much of the time.

Forgive me, I was simply basing the first comment on how together your response were here in the forum. If you are not doing okay, my apologies. I was also making the point that "in the bad old days" a girl would not necessarily be left alone to fend for her child's welfare. The boy was often held accountable too. Not always of course or we wouldn't have so many soap opera tales either.



The fact that they were two completely different individuals is a fact of life, not of environment. Or of age.

I don't agree (about the 18 yo thing). Oh yes, 16 yo's think they are adults (and they are) we just refuse to TREAT them like adults. That's why when they do act the fool they either get away with it or they do something so stupid we punish them like adults anyway. If we started treating them like adults at that age, I believe they would be less likely to act like juveniles. That's what history has shown anyway...Alexander was around 16 when he conquered Greece.



And I counter with MY personal experiences, that of freinds, etc., etc. etc. I also raise you with the whole of prior human history before the last 100 years.

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Yes, Alexander the Great :roll: Again, that means absolutely nothing. A kid that age is going to be good at fighting and war. That's why they draft them so young, because they also have no fear yet. They just don't understand and think bad things happen to "other people."

Regardless, I disagree completely with all of your ideas and have to wonder why you would want 16 year olds to be considered adults.

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Re: Is the age of a dead burglar,assailant,armed robber, attempted rapist/murder rela

So a few years ago I heard this story. I tend to think it is true.

A former boxer, pretty good boxer, he became a policeman after he had a good boxing career.
One night he was called to respond to a disturbance at a night club. Some kids were fighting so he had to break them up. Caught one, asked him to get in the car to drive him to the police station. The kid, teenager, cried and said something like this:
-Please mister, at least let me tie my shoelaces.
The policeman accepted... the kid went down, took a knife he had hidden in his shoes and sliced the policemans' throat. He was dead before he hit the ground.

Now this is to emphasize that anyone, no matter how well trained, how strong, how anything you want, can be killed by anyone else no matter how weak, how untrained, etc. As long as there is a way to do it.

Re: Is the age of a dead burglar,assailant,armed robber, attempted rapist/murder rela

ChrisL said:

I wouldn't trust anyone who wants to lower the age of consent. I MUST question their motives when 18 is only two more years. Why so young? Why not let them be children until they are 18, when all of the evidence points to the fact that most teens are actually still children?

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You do realize that 16 IS the age of consent in the majority of American States? 31 plus D.C. to be exact. There are 8 where it is 17 and only 11 where it is 18. Also, Most European nations are at 16, with the exception of maybe 4 where it is 18? (Poland, Andorra, Slovakia and some other...) in fact 90% of the nations of the world consider 16 the age of consent, including Canada.

I'm not asking to lower it. I am simply stating that if it weren't for our current standards of health, food availability, lack of predation, and so on...16 would be the age when a young man and woman started a family and took care of their own business. History shows they were both fully capable and did it well, if they were brought up expecting they would do so.

Re: Is the age of a dead burglar,assailant,armed robber, attempted rapist/murder rela

ChrisL said:

Of course, there are always going to be those who mature faster, but it's a good idea when dealing with such issues to overestimate rather than underestimate IMO.

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I agree especially since most laws are one size fits all. Eighteen is a good age to be considered an adult....although I left home at 17. I'd already graduated from HS so what difference would a few months make? I only had to move back home once before I could finally make it on my own.

Re: Is the age of a dead burglar,assailant,armed robber, attempted rapist/murder rela

ChrisL said:

Regardless, I disagree completely with all of your ideas and have to wonder why you would want 16 year olds to be considered adults.

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This inference of some nefarious intent is beneath you. I simply think that we have been coddling teenagers to their detriment. Instead of acting like they need to be children for as long as possible I think we should be training them to be responsible people as soon as possible. I'm honestly looking at the likely collapse of the American economy in the not too distant future (and no I do not mean the Zombie Apocalypse). I think we need to start facing some serious realities and prepare our youth for the possibility they will need to help take care of themselves sooner rather than later.

Whether you think that is "nefarious" or not, doesn't trouble me in the least.

Re: Is the age of a dead burglar,assailant,armed robber, attempted rapist/murder rela

jamesrage said:

I noticed that some of the Treyvon Martin supporters keep bringing up the fact he was a kid and I know some people think it does matter that an assailant was a minor.So I thought I would ask the following question- Is the age of a dead burglar,assailant,bank robber, attempted rapist/murder relevant? For example if a burglar is killed inside someone's home should the homeowner be in legal trouble if that burglar is a minor? If a bank robber is killed while trying to rob a bank and that bank robber is a minor should that concerned citizen or security guard be in legal trouble?

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Firstly, Travyon was not the criminal, he was the victim in this case.

Secondly, the age of a suspect, even if it is a dead one is important and relevant. If a 10 year old gets peer pressured into the home of silly mr. Johnson and mr. Johnson recognizes that it is a 10 year old and still kills him then yes, the age of the suspect is important. And a security guard who shoots an armed robber will almost surely never be in trouble, except if he should see the weapon is a brightly colored water spraying pistol but I doubt that will ever happen.

And age is important, in the US 12 year old children can be tried as adults or get decades worth of jail time, you can shoot a gun at just about any age, you can drive a car by 16, join the army etc. but when it comes to alcohol the state says young people are not able to drink until 21.

Also the age is important as a learning tool, when a 15 year old bank robber is shoot, a 14 year old rapist is arrested it gives parents a teaching moment for their children. Learn, don't do drugs and stay on the good side of the law and you will most likely never be accused of murder, rape, etc.

Re: Is the age of a dead burglar,assailant,armed robber, attempted rapist/murder rela

In questioning the prosecutor, Reuters asked about killing a "YOUNG child just walking home from the store" - meaning Reuters is going to continue to lie in its incessant campaign against American gun ownership.

BUT I answered MAYBE, because "burglars" were included in the list. For home defense we actual have our main firearms for that having a first round of a rubber bullet (or beanbag) if a shotgun. It would take 1/2 second at the most for a lethal round if truly necessary. Many on the forum criticize this, but in fact we often do have children at our home, many guests, many visitors and young kids can also be burglars. The rubber bullet/beanbag is a safeguard in that just-in-case a firearm left out, not correctly put away, or somehow gotten into by one of the younger kids - and because we would not want kill a friend, relative or guest - or an 11 year old who snuck in at night to steal something - ie burglar.

Take "burglar" off the list and you have violent crimes, so then it doesn't matter - although I could bandy the word "assault" in the sense of some young kid throwing a violent tantrum. But "burglary?" Yes, I think age matters particularly in the castle doctrine states where you can shoot a burglar basically just to shoot them. I do not want to kill a young kid trying to steal something. I do not want any lethal accidental gun deaths at our home either - and that is the 1/2 second compromise for those reasons. But I also think that margin actually allows us to shoot faster in any questionable situation - plus that'd be a damn good lessen for a 13 year old sneaking in to steal something anyway.

Re: Is the age of a dead burglar,assailant,armed robber, attempted rapist/murder rela

Captain Adverse said:

You do realize that 16 IS the age of consent in the majority of American States? 31 plus D.C. to be exact. There are 8 where it is 17 and only 11 where it is 18. Also, Most European nations are at 16, with the exception of maybe 4 where it is 18? (Poland, Andorra, Slovakia and some other...) in fact 90% of the nations of the world consider 16 the age of consent, including Canada.

I'm not asking to lower it. I am simply stating that if it weren't for our current standards of health, food availability, lack of predation, and so on...16 would be the age when a young man and woman started a family and took care of their own business. History shows they were both fully capable and did it well, if they were brought up expecting they would do so.

Click to expand...

And I already agreed with that point, didn't I? I said times have changed and will continue to do so. We aren't going to go in reverse though.

Re: Is the age of a dead burglar,assailant,armed robber, attempted rapist/murder rela

Captain Adverse said:

This inference of some nefarious intent is beneath you. I simply think that we have been coddling teenagers to their detriment. Instead of acting like they need to be children for as long as possible I think we should be training them to be responsible people as soon as possible. I'm honestly looking at the likely collapse of the American economy in the not too distant future (and no I do not mean the Zombie Apocalypse). I think we need to start facing some serious realities and prepare our youth for the possibility they will need to help take care of themselves sooner rather than later.

Whether you think that is "nefarious" or not, doesn't trouble me in the least.

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I'm not accusing you of anything. I simply stated I wonder about the motive of someone who wants to have teens be adults so quickly. Why the rush?

Anyway, we're kind of getting off topic.

Re: Is the age of a dead burglar,assailant,armed robber, attempted rapist/murder rela

Moot said:

I agree especially since most laws are one size fits all. Eighteen is a good age to be considered an adult....although I left home at 17. I'd already graduated from HS so what difference would a few months make? I only had to move back home once before I could finally make it on my own.

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Yes, people tend to forget that life is much more complicated in modern times than it was in the 1800s for example. You have to KNOW a lot more to be able to make it and have a successful life. You have to be prepared.

Re: Is the age of a dead burglar,assailant,armed robber, attempted rapist/murder rela

ChrisL said:

I'm not accusing you of anything. I simply stated I wonder about the motive of someone who wants to have teens be adults so quickly. Why the rush?

Anyway, we're kind of getting off topic.

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I think I answered the first question in my last post. Hopefully that was satisfactory, because with 17 trillion dollars in government deficit, businesses moving industry out of the country, others reducing full-time workers and replacing them with part-timers and temps, the huge student loan debt, the huge credit card debt, and banks trying to inflate the housing market again...I see the storm clouds a-comin.

I voted "maybe/other" because I think we have been doing teenagers a disservice by training them to think "it's all good until you turn 18." Especially when it really isn't.

So for me, if a juvenile is 13 or under, it should make a difference how they are treated in the OP's situation. If they are 14 or 15, I'm kinda on the fence. By 16? No, they need to start realizing that if they think they are adults, they need to start acting like one, and also expect to be treated like an adult.