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What is most responsible for Christianity's failure in the West?

See above.

  • The conspiratorial view

    Votes: 2 7.7%

  • The progressive view

    Votes: 15 57.7%

  • The perspectivist view

    Votes: 8 30.8%

  • The economic view

    Votes: 1 3.8%
  • Total voters
    26
captainawesome said:
Where did the Jewish God go when the Christian God showed up.
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We can only ask ourselves "Where would we be if no one had ever bought into this stupid garbage ?".............................
 
Rainman05 said:
No, my line of reasoning is quite sound, I assure you.

You cannot talk of a Christian God before the appearance of Christ. There was no Christian God before Christ. How hard is it to grasp that concept?
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It's not sound at all, nor is it in line with traditional Christian beliefs. It's a hard concept to grasp because by your reasoning, Christians don't believe in:

- The Old Testament as being the word of God, as it you say it was written before your God existed. That means you either think it was written by a different God (which would make you a Polytheist, which Christians usually go to great lengths in claiming they aren't), or that it was simply the word of man.

- Creationism. After all, the world was created long before Jesus was born, and according to you your God didn't exist at that point.

-Actually, I'm not going to continue with this list. It's silly. The whole concept of Jesus being the son of God comes from the Old Testament. To claim that you don't believe in the father who existed before his son was born is just flat out unchristian. The Christian God existed before the birth of Jesus, and there is no mainstream religion that claims otherwise. He wrote a book, then he wrote a sequel. You can't worship the sequel and claim the original was written by someone else, it wasn't, that's the whole point of your religion.
 
What is most responsible for Christianity's failure in the West?

RESPONSE:

Christianity's failure is the failure of any of the Organized Religions of the World: These Religions preach nonsense when they insist on KNOWING the hereafter. There isn't anyone KNOWING the hereafter.

Religions are regurgitated MYTHOLOGIES.....i.e., regurgitated bovinepoop.

Personally, I don't know whether I am an Atheist, or not.

IMO, IF there is a "god", that "god" is the sum total of the Laws of the Universe. Basically, that is the religion of Spinoza, Einstein, etc.

I am proud to say that I came to this conclusion at the approx age of 9 without knowing Einstein's belief, nor the philosophers'.
 
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HumanBeing said:
Again, I still don't understand what you think I got wrong. The God who unleashed the plagues in the Old Testament is the same God that Jesus claimed to be. If you're saying it's not the same God, then that means you don't believe in the story of creation, adam and eve, and all the rest of it. Or is it only the plagues that was a "different" God, but all the stuff you happen to like was your God?

Sorry dude, your line of reason is not only nonsensical from a non-religious perspective, but it's not even consistent with Christian beliefs. Jews and Christians believe in the same "base" God, it's whether Jesus was actually his son that they disagree on (and therefore whether we should care what Jesus said).
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No, all the stuff in the old testament, all of it, where God is involved, it's the Jewish God. Plain and simple. The Christian God, the god of Christianity, exists only in the events of the New Testament, not in the old testament.

I cannot make it any clearer. I gave you 3 metaphorical examples to exemplify my point. The money one. The H2O, H2O2 one and a mathematical one. I cannot do anymore to get my point across and make you understand why the Christian God is not the same as the Jewish God. Why the new testament God is different from the Old Testament god and the only relationship that exists between them is an inheritance one. That's it. They are 2 different Gods.

If you can't see that, then fine, lets agree to disagree.

But do note that you kept repeating the same nonsensical line that Jesus said he is the son of the Old testament god, where as I came up with 3 pretty creative ways to explain to you why the fact that Christ exists is a crucial aspect in defining the Christian God as NOT being the same as the old testament god. I guess some people are just fixated like that. I am not to blame you received a poor and flawed education in Christianity and Christian theology.

captainawesome said:
So not real?
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Take your atheism elsewhere. I won't be debating it here and now.
 
Rainman05 said:
No, all the stuff in the old testament, all of it, where God is involved, it's the Jewish God. Plain and simple. The Christian God, the god of Christianity, exists only in the events of the New Testament, not in the old testament.

I cannot make it any clearer. I gave you 3 metaphorical examples to exemplify my point. The money one. The H2O, H2O2 one and a mathematical one. I cannot do anymore to get my point across and make you understand why the Christian God is not the same as the Jewish God. Why the new testament God is different from the Old Testament god and the only relationship that exists between them is an inheritance one. That's it. They are 2 different Gods.

If you can't see that, then fine, lets agree to disagree.

But do note that you kept repeating the same nonsensical line that Jesus said he is the son of the Old testament god, where as I came up with 3 pretty creative ways to explain to you why the fact that Christ exists is a crucial aspect in defining the Christian God as NOT being the same as the old testament god. I guess some people are just fixated like that. I am not to blame you received a poor and flawed education in Christianity and Christian theology.
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You haven't come up with any creative ways to explain anything. There is nothing to "agree to disagree" about. You're saying Christians don't believe in the God of the Old Testament. That means they don't believe in the story of creation, Adam and Eve, the great flood, or the prophecies of Christ. It's simply nonsensical, and fundamentally unchristian.
 
HumanBeing said:
You haven't come up with any creative ways to explain anything. There is nothing to "agree to disagree" about. You're saying Christians don't believe in the God of the Old Testament. That means they don't believe in the story of creation, Adam and Eve, the great flood, or the prophecies of Christ. It's simply nonsensical.
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Omg. I never brought up the notion of "believe" in anything.
The question is not "what do Christians believe in". The question we have attempted to answer is: Is the God of Christianity the same as the god of the Jewish religion? Is the God of the new testament the same as the god of the old testament? And the answer is no, the god of christianity is different than the god of judaism and the god of Christianity only came in existence with the new testament. he doesn't exist in the old testament. The god of judaism exists in the old testament.

I never mentioned anythign about "believing" in one god or another. Just a matter of identity.
 
Rainman05 said:
No, all the stuff in the old testament, all of it, where God is involved, it's the Jewish God. Plain and simple. The Christian God, the god of Christianity, exists only in the events of the New Testament, not in the old testament.

I cannot make it any clearer. I gave you 3 metaphorical examples to exemplify my point. The money one. The H2O, H2O2 one and a mathematical one. I cannot do anymore to get my point across and make you understand why the Christian God is not the same as the Jewish God. Why the new testament God is different from the Old Testament god and the only relationship that exists between them is an inheritance one. That's it. They are 2 different Gods.

If you can't see that, then fine, lets agree to disagree.

But do note that you kept repeating the same nonsensical line that Jesus said he is the son of the Old testament god, where as I came up with 3 pretty creative ways to explain to you why the fact that Christ exists is a crucial aspect in defining the Christian God as NOT being the same as the old testament god. I guess some people are just fixated like that. I am not to blame you received a poor and flawed education in Christianity and Christian theology.



Take your atheism elsewhere. I won't be debating it here and now.
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I asked a question.

If the Christian God is not the Jewish God what happened to the Jewish God? Did it never exist or are there multiple Gods?
 
Rainman05 said:
Omg. I never brought up the notion of "believe" in anything.
The question is not "what do Christians believe in". The question we have attempted to answer is: Is the God of Christianity the same as the god of the Jewish religion? Is the God of the new testament the same as the god of the old testament? And the answer is no, the god of christianity is different than the god of judaism and the god of Christianity only came in existence with the new testament. he doesn't exist in the old testament. The god of judaism exists in the old testament.

I never mentioned anythign about "believing" in one god or another. Just a matter of identity.
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What? This whole issue was raised when I said Christians believe in the God who unleashed the plagues on Egypt. You claimed was I was wrong and it was a "different God". Now you say you never brought up the notion of believing?

This is unbelievable.......

And again, if you don't believe in the God of the Old Testament, that means you don't believe in the story of creation, or the prophecies of Christ, among many other important fundamental Christian beliefs.
 
captainawesome said:
I asked a question.

If the Christian God is not the Jewish God what happened to the Jewish God? Did it never exist or are there multiple Gods?
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No, the jewish god exists in the old testament. I already answered you.
 
HumanBeing said:
What? This whole issue was raised when I said Christians believe in the God who unleashed the plagues on Egypt. You claimed was I was wrong and it was a "different God". Now you say you never brought up the notion of believing?

This is unbelievable.......

And again, if you don't believe in the God of the Old Testament, that means you don't believe in the story of creation, or the prophecies of Christ, among many other important fundamental Christian beliefs.
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Yep, it was the god of judaism. The god of christianity doesn't exist until the new testament.

I never mentioned anything about belief in the god of the old testament. I only stated that the god of the old testament is not the same with the god of the new testament. So the god of the new testament is God the father, Jesus and the Holy spirit. The god of the old testament is just God and the holy spirit.
 
captainawesome said:
The old testament is just a book. So you say the Jewish God isn't real.
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No I'm not. Look at the post I am making and don't put words in my mouth. Or rather, words in my comment.
I am simply explaining why you cannot attribute the events of the New testament to the god of the OT, and why you can't attribute the events of the OT to the god of the NT. Because they aren't the same.
 
Rainman05 said:
No I'm not. Look at the post I am making and don't put words in my mouth. Or rather, words in my comment.
I am simply explaining why you cannot attribute the events of the New testament to the god of the OT, and why you can't attribute the events of the OT to the god of the NT. Because they aren't the same.
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So there are multiple Gods then?

The Christian God and the Jewish God both claim to be the only God they both can't be correct. One is a false God. Which one us false?
 
captainawesome said:
So there are multiple Gods then?

The Christian God and the Jewish God both claim to be the only God they both can't be correct. One is a false God. Which one us false?
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Each is true for its own religion. I believe mine is the right one.
You believe yours is the right one.
To each his own.
 
Rainman05 said:
Each is true for its own religion. I believe mine is the right one.
You believe yours is the right one.
To each his own.
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So God is like picking your favorite movie. Its all made up. It can make you feel good, but makes no real difference in life.
 
captainawesome said:
So God is like picking your favorite movie. Its all made up. It can make you feel good, but makes no real difference in life.
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I don't know about that.
But believing in a deity is an important thing to those who find it important. It's not a mandated thing. It's not universal. And it's not a reason to make a big deal out of it in real life when there is a lot of other things to worry about. Real issues which we can make a positive, definitive impact in.
This doesn't mean that religion isn't important, it is far better to have a bit faith than to be an atheist. it just means that since you can't make a definitive statement on the matter of religion, better find something else to do with your life.
 
Rainman05 said:
I don't know about that.
But believing in a deity is an important thing to those who find it important. It's not a mandated thing. It's not universal. And it's not a reason to make a big deal out of it in real life when there is a lot of other things to worry about. Real issues which we can make a positive, definitive impact in.
This doesn't mean that religion isn't important, it is far better to have a bit faith than to be an atheist. it just means that since you can't make a definitive statement on the matter of religion, better find something else to do with your life.
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The problems come when people want their view of the God myth forced onto others.
 
Rainman05 said:
No I'm not. Look at the post I am making and don't put words in my mouth. Or rather, words in my comment.
I am simply explaining why you cannot attribute the events of the New testament to the god of the OT, and why you can't attribute the events of the OT to the god of the NT. Because they aren't the same.
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This whole thing doesn't make any sense, and your assertions are patently unchristian. You are saying that Christianity is a polytheistic religion. I've argued the same thing on occasion, and Christians generally take great offense to it. I'm confused by how you don't see the obvious contradiction in your argument.
 
HumanBeing said:
This whole thing doesn't make any sense, and your assertions are patently unchristian. You are saying that Christianity is a polytheistic religion. I've argued the same thing on occasion, and Christians generally take great offense to it. I'm confused by how you don't see the obvious contradiction in your argument.
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I've not argued that my Christianity is a polytheist religion. Where have I done that? I've just stated that you can't attribute the events of the OT to the god of the NT because the god of the NT is the God of Christianity... and he is not the same one as the god of the OT. And the events of the NT cannot be attributed to the god of the OT.

I have provided sufficient examples and explanations to support my viewpoint, metaphores and all. Just because you can't see things that way doesn't mean you are right. It doesn't make me right either, but I have the advantage of bringing more to the debate where as you have simply recycled one silly, nonsensical point.
 
Einzige said:
Where by "failure" I mean its gradual displacement from the center of the moral and intellectual life of they civilization.

To define these options bit:

[the conspiratorial view]: It holds that Christian belief would be as predominant today in the West as it was in 1913 if it were not for the conscious, deliberate machinations of a small group of secularizing elites promoting atheism and amorality.

"secularization thesis". According to this theory, Christianity is doomed to deplacement, as are all religions eventually, by the gradual and wholly unconscious forces of mental and mechanical progress.

the Nietzscheite option: Christianity has failed because it is inherently flawed. It can exist only among theoppressed, and as soon as a people become strong enough to shirk ofc a collective sense of inferiority it will abolish the correspondent notimon of individual existential guilt that informs Christianity.

The Marxist solution. Christianity belongs at the historical latest to the age of feudalism; the rising capitalists of the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries sought initially to do away with it altogether, as a reminder of the hated age of the nobility, and retain it only as a matter of practicalg politica expedience.
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All four - in varying mixes depending on who you're talking to, what nation you're referring to specifically.

The Secularization Thesis doesn't explain much, though - it just says it's doomed to be replaced. But by what - how - for what reasons...that's more critical to cover, which strongly ties into the other three.
 
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