Creepy Ass Cracker.... Racist or no? [W:329/550]

ecofarm · Jun 28, 2013

Geoist said:
I never said the quote wasn't there...

I have made no errors whatsoever.

It seems that you misunderstood "institutional" to mean "overt state-backed".

Geoist said:
Nothing in there about "institutional backing." Nothing about minorities not being able to be racist.

For the definition of institutional in regard to this topic, see Mr.Invisible's post(s) earlier in this thread. To understand how minorities cannot be racist, re-read the sociological definition I've quoted above - it's not complicated to figure out.

Geoist · Jun 28, 2013

ecofarm said:
Without getting to that point, it's common bigotry. It only becomes an ism when the state, 'the man', has got ones back.

In that case, racism no longer exists (at least in the US and most developed countries) as the State no longer sanctions racism.

Geoist · Jun 28, 2013

ecofarm said:
It seems that you misunderstood "institutional" to mean "overt state-backed".

I know what institutional means. What I reject is your idea that a minority cannot be racist.

Geoist · Jun 28, 2013

ecofarm said:
To understand how minorities cannot be racist, re-read the sociological definition I've quoted above - it's not complicated to figure out.

Once again, I do not accept the definition of SOME sociologists. I accept the commonly accepted definition.

ecofarm · Jun 28, 2013

Geoist said:
Once again, I do not accept the definition of SOME sociologists. I accept the commonly accepted definition.

The point is that the wiki quote said that minorities cannot be racist, just in a few words that you didn't seem to notice or perhaps had not considered. You claimed that the wiki page said no such thing. You were wrong - it does, under definitions/sociological. That same quote also notes the required institutional backing, which you also seem to have missed.

Geoist · Jun 28, 2013

ecofarm said:
The point is that the wiki quote said that minorities cannot be racist, just in a few words that you didn't seem to notice or perhaps had not considered. You claimed that the wiki page said no such thing.

Point to me where I said that. I said the top of that article supports the definition the majority of us accept.

That same quote also notes the required institutional backing, which you also seem to have missed.

And I think those few sociologists who think that is the only requirement for racism are full of ****. To me, (and most of society), racism is a feeling of prejudice against another race (whether or not that other race is a minority).

Do you think I think am not familiar with your definition? I've taken sociology courses. There are some who accept it and many who don't.

Geoist · Jun 28, 2013

Eco, you never responded to post #352. Do you think racism no longer exists, or do you think the State sanctions racism?

shrubnose · Jun 28, 2013

Geoist said:
In that case, racism no longer exists (at least in the US and most developed countries) as the State no longer sanctions racism.

Unfortunately racism continues to exist all over this planet, including, of course, in every part of the USA.

Most people are racist to some extent.

But a lot of people will continue to deny that racism exists for their own reasons.

Geoist · Jun 28, 2013

HumanBeing said:
TYou don't get to decide what words mean by yourself. The dictionary, and even your own source have already shown you to be completely wrong about this.

And yet he thinks we must accept the definition given by some sociologists, lol.

Juanita · Jun 28, 2013

Caine said:
The title says it all.... do you believe calling someone a "Creepy Ass Cracker" is racist???????

First of all, he didn't say it to Zimmerman...It was a descriptive term he used to the girl....I believe that the word cracker goes back to slavery days to describe the oppressor and has been used ever since out of habit more than anything else....Yes, it can be viewed as derogatory, but not necessarily racist especially by a teenager who was startled that someone was stalking him, and nervous and fearful...He saw a creepy ass cracker and that is how he perceived and described him....

Semantics---racism, bigotry, prejudism---does still exist in this country.....if that wasn't the case, why do some high schools in the South still have two proms--one for whites and one for blacks and other minorities? Why are more blacks and Latinos in prisons than whites? The system works against minorities....That is not institutional racism, but not far from it.......Jim Crow was not "that" long ago.....

ecofarm · Jun 28, 2013

Geoist said:
Do you think I think am not familiar with your definition? I've taken sociology courses. There are some who accept it and many who don't.

In grad school everyone accepts it as a necessity of conversation. You see, common bigotry without societal implications is not really that interesting. What's interesting (and bad for society) is when a group has and exercises power to their advantage. Insisting on continuing to ignore the oppression and privilege aspects of racism is being intentionally simple and not useful in intellectual discussion.

Geoist said:
Nothing in there about "institutional backing." Nothing about minorities not being able to be racist.

Regarding your not understanding or noticing what the quote says, I'll post it again:

Some sociologists have defined racism as a system of group privilege. In Portraits of White Racism, David Wellman has defined racism as “culturally sanctioned beliefs, which, regardless of intentions involved, defend the advantages whites have because of the subordinated position of racial minorities”.[23] Sociologists Noël A. Cazenave and Darlene Alvarez Maddern define racism as “...a highly organized system of 'race'-based group privilege that operates at every level of society and is held together by a sophisticated ideology of color/'race' supremacy.

Do you understand how the bolded parts obliterate both of your "Nothing..." claims?

Geoist said:
Eco, you never responded to post #352. Do you think racism no longer exists, or do you think the State sanctions racism?

I've already answered that within the thread. See Mr.Invisible's post(s) herein if you don't understand what institutional racism in the US means.

HumanBeing · Jun 28, 2013

Geoist said:
And yet he thinks we must accept the definition given by some sociologists, lol.

No, just him. Even the sociological definition he supplied didn't create the same requirements for something to qualify as racism that he's stating (though he does keep changing the goalposts). At one point he claimed that racism can only be racism if it's backed by a state institution, but the sociological definition he gave didn't list state backing as a requirement.

The Nazi's don't have a state anymore, so by his definition even they aren't racists. It's a bizarre way to define racism in any context.

Geoist · Jun 28, 2013

ecofarm said:
In grad school everyone accepts it as a necessity of conversation.

Then why does it say SOME sociologists if everyone accepts your definition?

Regarding your not understanding or noticing what the quote says, I'll post it again:

Do you understand how the bolded parts obliterate both of your "Nothing..." claims?

Do you understand how a minority of people do not dictate the definition of words for the majority?

And I was right, there was nothing in that quote about institutional backing. Maybe if you included my entire quote for context...

I've already answered that within the thread. See Mr.Invisible's post(s) herein if you don't understand what institutional racism in the US means.

You said it only becomes racISM when the State backs it up. So either you are saying racISM no longer exists or it is still sanctioned by the State. Which is it?

ecofarm · Jun 28, 2013

HumanBeing said:
No, just him. Even the sociological definition he supplied didn't create the same requirements for something to qualify as racism that he's stating (though he does keep changing the goalposts). At one point he claimed that racism can only be racism if it's backed by a state institution, but the sociological definition he gave didn't list state backing as a requirement.

You are wrong.

Some sociologists have defined racism as a system of group privilege. In Portraits of White Racism, David Wellman has defined racism as “culturally sanctioned beliefs, which, regardless of intentions involved, defend the advantages whites have because of the subordinated position of racial minorities”.[23] Sociologists Noël A. Cazenave and Darlene Alvarez Maddern define racism as “...a highly organized system of 'race'-based group privilege that operates at every level of society and is held together by a sophisticated ideology of color/'race' supremacy.

Racism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In case you do not understand what 'institutionalized racism' means in US context, this post should explain that for you:

Mr. Invisible said:
Gladly

"One historic example of institutional racism is the barring of African-American students from attending certain public schools, which limited the students' educational opportunities and helped prevent them from achieving a status equal to that of others. Institutional racism need not involve intentional racial discrimination. For example, individual judges might intend to impose similar sentences for similar crimes; yet if Caucasian people tend to receive lighter punishments, plausibly institutional racism occurs." (Definition of Institutional Racism | Chegg.com) [In regards to that last sentence, think the crack-cocaine sentencing disparity.)

Look also:

Racism in Schools: Unintentional But No Less Damaging

Examples of Institutional Racism | Educational Leadership Development Resource Library

Institutional Racism in US Health Care

http://webmedia.unmc.edu/community/citymatch/CityMatCHUndoingRacismReport.pdf

If you have any further misunderstandings, feel free to re-read the thread.

ecofarm · Jun 28, 2013

Geoist said:
You said it only becomes racISM when the State backs it up. So either you are saying racISM no longer exists or it is still sanctioned by the State. Which is it?

You obviously do not understand institutionalized (institution backed) racism in US context. See my post above, quoting Mr.Invisible's information about that.

HumanBeing · Jun 28, 2013

ecofarm said:
You are wrong.

Racism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In case you do not understand what 'institutionalized racism' means in US context, this post should explain that for you:

If you have any further misunderstandings, feel free to re-read the thread.

Again, you're just making up your own definition, first of racism, and now of institutional racism. Not all institutions are state backed, and it does nothing for your ridiculous idea that institutional racism is the only kind of racism that exists. And again, even your own quotes that you keep spewing are contradicting your argument. They don't make any requirement of state backing for something to qualify as institutional racism, let alone racism in general.

You also haven't said how you can simultaneously claim that the Nazi's are racist, while claiming that racism can't exist without institutionalized state backing and can't be committed by minorities, even though the Nazis don't have a state anymore, and they are clearly a minority.

Clearly they are racist, and clearly your personalized definition doesn't work.

ecofarm · Jun 28, 2013

HumanBeing said:
Again, you're just making up your own definition, first of racism, and now of institutional racism. Not all institutions are state backed, and it does nothing for your ridiculous idea that institutional racism is the only kind of racism that exists. And again, even your own quotes that you keep spewing are contradicting your argument. They don't make any requirement of state backing for something to qualify as institutional racism, let alone racism in general.

I cited the sociological definition, from wikipedia. It clearly states that a system establishing privilege must be present. Such a system can only be present throughout society for the majority or those with majority power. It's impossible for a minority (lacking majority power) to establish a system of privilege throughout society, as there is no inherent mechanism of enforcement via a belief in racial superiority.

This is obvious, I'm not explaining it to you again. If you don't get it yet, just re-read the thread.

Good day.

Geoist · Jun 28, 2013

ecofarm said:
You obviously do not understand institutionalized (institution backed) racism in US context. See my post above, quoting Mr.Invisible's information about that.

I was not about to read all of those articles, but I did read the one on health care. What the article describes relates more to poverty rather than race. There are many impoverished caucasians who face the same problems that article describes (lack of insurance, underserved staff, low wage jobs w/ few benefits, etc.)

HumanBeing · Jun 28, 2013

ecofarm said:
I cited the sociological definition, from wikipedia. It clearly states that a system establishing privilege must be present. Such a system can only be present throughout society for the majority or those with majority power. It's impossible for a minority (lacking majority power) to establish a system of privilege throughout society, as there is no inherent mechanism of enforcement via a belief in racial superiority.

This is obvious, I'm not explaining it to you again. If you don't get it yet, just re-read the thread.

Good day.

You aren't making any sense. Seriously, read what I wrote again. How can you possibly claim that neo Nazis aren't racist? This whole thing is just absurd.

Geoist · Jun 28, 2013

ecofarm said:
I cited the sociological definition, from wikipedia. It clearly states that a system establishing privilege must be present. Such a system can only be present throughout society for the majority or those with majority power. It's impossible for a minority (lacking majority power) to establish a system of privilege throughout society, as there is no inherent mechanism of enforcement via a belief in racial superiority.

This is obvious, I'm not explaining it to you again. If you don't get it yet, just re-read the thread.

Good day.

Then as HumanBeing stated, by your definition neo-nazis cannot be considered "racist."

American · Jun 28, 2013

ecofarm said:
That's not what I'm saying. I don't think Obama approves of racial slurs. I think a meaningful percentage of Americans do in regard to blacks thus creating a system of oppression and privilege.

Jackson and Sharpton would be proud of you.

MoSurveyor · Jun 28, 2013

ChrisL said:
I wouldn't care if someone called me a cracker. There's nothing wrong with crackers. They're delicious. :mrgreen:

Oh, I am NOT going there ... :lol:

Buck Ewer · Jun 28, 2013

There is no evidence that Paula Deen believed that her race was superior to all others.

Not true .
Her fantasy was to put on a plantation wedding where negro house slaves dressed in white tuxedos attended to the all white wedding party's needs.
Those desires are an indication of someone who harbors racism.
When such a person uses the "n" word in anger that is all the evidence needed.
Sorry ... it just is .

Buck Ewer · Jun 28, 2013

There is no system based racism....

What would you call state voter repression laws deigned and aimed specifically at black voters?

MaggieD · Jun 28, 2013

Buck Ewer said:
Not true .
Her fantasy was to put on a plantation wedding where negro house slaves dressed in white tuxedos attended to the all white wedding party's needs.
Those desires are an indication of someone who harbors racism.
When such a person uses the "n" word in anger that is all the evidence needed.
Sorry ... it just is .

Come on, really?? For one thing, she'd be paying those "slaves," yes? Do you really think it's a horrendous nightmare for a woman to dream of an antebellum wedding? Jesus. Lighten up. Go watch Gone With The Wind. Go tour antebellum mansions in the South.

Creepy Ass Cracker.... Racist or no? [W:329/550]

Is the phrase "Creepy Ass Cracker" Racist?

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