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Is Homosexuality A Choice?

Is Homosexuality A Choice?

  • Yes

    Votes: 33 15.9%
  • No

    Votes: 136 65.7%
  • Maybe/Don't Know

    Votes: 38 18.4%

  • Total voters
    207
I'll start with saying that while I don't think it is the majority of the cases, that it can be a choice for some people. I wouldn't call it the same as bisexuality, and with the one or two that I know who are claiming choice, I can't put my finger on what it is that makes it different, but I can tell that it is. Not very scientific I know but take it for what it's worth.

I hear what you are saying. What are the ... the... mechanisms, if you will, that allow a gay man to have sex and achieve orgasm with a woman before coming out? In other words, how does he get to orgasm without being attracted to the woman? Is it simply a matter of enjoying the friction? That would require him to ignore the thoughts that say "yuck, a woman!" and focus more intently on the physical feedback. This requires that a choice be made. He chooses to suppress his ... distaste, disgust, whatever term.. and focus on the friction, perhaps to ficus on the mental picture of a man. That takes mental power. It starts with a choice.

Desire and attraction are independent of the mechanics that allow orgasm. A male can be raped with no desire for the rapist (male or female) and achieve an orgasm, just like a female can. It's part of what causes the trauma and self recrimination. The idea that only desire will allow an orgasm therefore they must have desired to be raped.

I agree. Wait, no I don't. I don't agree. -necessarily. If some people can choose their orientation and some people can not, what is the difference that exists between the two? A gene?

Why does a given result have to have only one cause? Whether I go out in the rain or I stand under a sprinkler, I'm getting wet either way. Same result, different causes.
 
Do you think the gays are killing themselves because they have found it easy to change their sexual orientation?

Well let me throw some evidence at you. It is rather convenient that the Ex-Gay Lobby recently decided to throw a big rally in Washington D.C. that they expected thousands of people who left homosexuality to attend. How many do you think actually attended?

D.C. ex-gay rally draws fewer than 10 attendees | The Raw Story

Of all those "thousands" of people who have left homosexuality, all they could muster was 10 people.

And what of organizations that tout that change is possible? We could start with the biggest one...

Ex-gay group Exodus International shuts down, president apologizes | Religion News Service

So...the evidence does not really support your reasoning.

Evidence. While I don't dispute that fewer than 10 people showed up, I dispute, perhaps, the reason why.


I don't dispute that the president of Exodus said certain words-- president Alan Chambers released a statement apologizing to the gay community for many actions, including the organization’s promotion of efforts to change a person’s sexual orientation.

However, I dispute, perhaps, the reason why you think he said those words.

You are assuming, if i may be so bold, that these two pieces of evidence are clear indications that orientation can not be changed/is not a choice. I am saying that is not necessarily so because there may be other reasons why what happened... happened. Critical thinking means questioning everything.
 
Homosexuality: The Mental Illness That Went Away

According to the American Psychiatric Association, until 1974 homosexuality was a mental illness. Freud had alluded to homosexuality numerous times in his writings, and had concluded that paranoia and homosexuality were inseparable. Other psychiatrists wrote copiously on the subject, and homosexuality was “treated” on a wide basis. There was little or no suggestion within the psychiatric community that homosexuality might be conceptualized as anything other than a mental illness that needed to be treated. And, of course, homosexuality was listed as a mental illness in DSM-II.

http://www.behaviorismandmentalhealth.com/2011/10/08/homosexuality-the-mental-illness-that-went-away/

And then came the Evelyn Hooker study. It found, contrary to what psychiatrists at the time believed, with the best psychiatric instruments they had available to them they could not distinguish between the psychological profiles of the gay and straight men.

Evelyn Hooker - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

As such, it was removed from the DSM and subsequent studies over the last few decades have confirmed that gay men and women are fully capable of living healthy, functional, and fulfilling lives without being hindered by homosexuality.
 
You'd don't just wake up one day and decide you want to switch your gender preference. There has to be some pre-existing feelings for that to occur. Your entire life you feel one way, you can't just choose to feel the other without at least a tad bit of pre-existing feelings.

I'm going to disagree with you here. My sister's orientation changed after being sexually assaulted.
 
Not very scientific I know but take it for what it's worth.

That is open-minded. I appreciate that.



Desire and attraction are independent of the mechanics that allow orgasm. A male can be raped with no desire for the rapist (male or female) and achieve an orgasm, just like a female can. It's part of what causes the trauma and self recrimination. The idea that only desire will allow an orgasm therefore they must have desired to be raped.

I agree. desire and attraction can be separated from a preset of conditions that result in orgasm. so if they can be separated, what conditions remain? -that is what i was asking. my answer is that it takes concentration. starting with a choice. We are not slaves to attraction. we can turn it on and off.



Why does a given result have to have only one cause? Whether I go out in the rain or I stand under a sprinkler, I'm getting wet either way. Same result, different causes.
I agree. I wasn't intending to say that only 1 cause always exists for this or that result.
 
Evidence. While I don't dispute that fewer than 10 people showed up, I dispute, perhaps, the reason why.


I don't dispute that the president of Exodus said certain words-- president Alan Chambers released a statement apologizing to the gay community for many actions, including the organization’s promotion of efforts to change a person’s sexual orientation.

However, I dispute, perhaps, the reason why you think he said those words.

You are assuming, if i may be so bold, that these two pieces of evidence are clear indications that orientation can not be changed/is not a choice. I am saying that is not necessarily so because there may be other reasons why what happened... happened. Critical thinking means questioning everything.

What I am saying is that men who have staked their livelihoods and reputations on the claim that homosexuality is changeable, have, after years of trying to do just that with many people, come forward and humbly apologized. Of all the groups that claim such change efforts are possible, NONE have come forward with empirical evidence to support their claims. In fact, the most commonly cited empirical studies of the so called "gay cure" have been recanted.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/19/h...or-study-on-gay-cure.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

So what I am saying is there is little to no empirical evidence to support the notion that such change efforts are possible, but there is considerable empirical evidence that such change efforts are harmful. And of the anecdotal evidence offered by the ex-gay lobby, there is considerably more coming from the thousands of people who have been harmed by these efforts.
 
I'm going to disagree with you here. My sister's orientation changed after being sexually assaulted.

While I can see what you mean, it wasn't her choice to get sexually assaulted, therefore I don't consider it a choice to change orientation. She suffered through something extremely traumatic. While I'm a guy, I can imagine if I was raped (as a woman) , it would be difficult to have sexual intercourse with a male again. While she might not have had that orientation before her assault, she still didn't just decide she wanted to switch, something traumatically forced her to change. So in a sense you are right because it is possible for people not to have pre-existing feelings that end up switching, but something traumatic like an assault isn't exactly a choice either. I see it as more of her mind and body going through self-preservation.

Glad she is ok though :D
 
While I can see what you mean, it wasn't her choice to get sexually assaulted, therefore I don't consider it a choice to change orientation. She suffered through something extremely traumatic. While I'm a guy, I can imagine if I was raped (as a woman) , it would be difficult to have sexual intercourse with a male again. While she might not have had that orientation before her assault, she still didn't just decide she wanted to switch, something traumatically forced her to change. So in a sense you are right because it is possible for people not to have pre-existing feelings that end up switching, but something traumatic like an assault isn't exactly a choice either. I see it as more of her mind and body going through self-preservation.

Glad she is ok though :D

I have to disagree with you. Well, let's be honest. I don't HAVE to, I choose to.

If what you say about the effects of her trauma are true, then those effects must last forever. No rehabilitation is possible. Is that what you are saying? That the only thing that could "change" her back to her previous orientation would be another sexual assault...?

I say no. the assualt did not force her to change. she chose to change. the assault was a factor in her decision. the effects of trauma do not last forever with proper treatment.
 
Okay. Nothing conclusive with regard to our debate, right?

Oh gosh no. While there appears to be strong evidence to a biological component to homosexuality, it is far from conclusive as to whether that is the major cause or even if it is the only cause.
 
It depends on the person. I've known both men and women who changed their orientation after having a traumatic sexual experience or a relationship that went bad. I've also known a few ex-homosexuals that have changed their orientation as well.

For some people though they are attracted sexually to people of the same gender or both genders, this isn't chosen but it just happens (most likely developmentally). What most definitely is a choice though is the choice to have homosexual sex.
 
And then came the Evelyn Hooker study. It found, contrary to what psychiatrists at the time believed, with the best psychiatric instruments they had available to them they could not distinguish between the psychological profiles of the gay and straight men.

Evelyn Hooker - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

As such, it was removed from the DSM and subsequent studies over the last few decades have confirmed that gay men and women are fully capable of living healthy, functional, and fulfilling lives without being hindered by homosexuality.

It was voted off the list not proven by science
 
I have to disagree with you. Well, let's be honest. I don't HAVE to, I choose to.

If what you say about the effects of her trauma are true, then those effects must last forever. No rehabilitation is possible. Is that what you are saying? That the only thing that could "change" her back to her previous orientation would be another sexual assault...?

I say no. the assualt did not force her to change. she chose to change. the assault was a factor in her decision. the effects of trauma do not last forever with proper treatment.

I don't really like anecdotal accounts because they are seldom generalizable.

Bad Dads May Have Led to Women's Hetero-flexibility | LiveScience
 
It was voted off the list not proven by science

Every change in the DSM is voted on by the APA. It is a political organization that considers the scientific evidence and then votes. As far as homosexuality, there was not a lot of scientific evidence to put it into the DSM to begin with and that was a major part of the reason it was hard to keep it in once a strong study convinced even some of the most ardent opponents that homosexuality was not a mental health problem.
 
What I am saying is that men who have staked their livelihoods and reputations on the claim that homosexuality is changeable, have, after years of trying to do just that with many people, come forward and humbly apologized. Of all the groups that claim such change efforts are possible, NONE have come forward with empirical evidence to support their claims. In fact, the most commonly cited empirical studies of the so called "gay cure" have been recanted.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/19/h...or-study-on-gay-cure.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

So what I am saying is there is little to no empirical evidence to support the notion that such change efforts are possible, but there is considerable empirical evidence that such change efforts are harmful. And of the anecdotal evidence offered by the ex-gay lobby, there is considerably more coming from the thousands of people who have been harmed by these efforts.

I do not dispute the lack of empirical evidence in either of our claims. Aside from our discussion, I am highly interested in identifying the reasons why we draw the conclusions we draw. It fascinates me. We like to think that the conclusions we draw are based on fact. We continue to turn events around in our mind until we figure out an explanation that makes sense. Some conclusions we draw are indeed based on fact, but at the same time, they do not account for other conclusions, based on the same facts, that are different. Here is where we get to the subjectivity, the Why.

Until we are able to accept that a conclusion may be possible even though it is not the particular one we have turned around in our minds and felt comfortable with, then we must accept the fact that we are biased. As discomforting and betraying to our awesome selves as that may be. I am not saying we should accept the possibility that the sky is not blue. That is an objective fact. stand alone-ish. I'm saying that in the absence of objective facts, we should not take our comforting conclusions too seriously. If we do, then why?

That to me is critical thinking, at least in part.

I conclude that orientation is a choice. I have turned it in my mind and I am comfortable with it. I understand and do not dispute that there are people who say it is not a choice. I do not dispute that people were said to have killed themselves b/c of their orientation. I dispute why. I dispute the conclusion.

if the suicide letter says, "I hereby kill myself b/c i am homo in a hetero environment." I will not dispute that that is what the person believes. How could I? No. I will dispute his/her assumption that his/her orientation could not change... and therefore, the Only option was suicide. The person drew that conclusion and acted on it. I dispute the conclusion.
 
Every change in the DSM is voted on by the APA. It is a political organization that considers the scientific evidence and then votes. As far as homosexuality, there was not a lot of scientific evidence to put it into the DSM to begin with and that was a major part of the reason it was hard to keep it in once a strong study convinced even some of the most ardent opponents that homosexuality was not a mental health problem.

Prove it, so far you haven't.
 
That doesn't make them untrue.

I do not doubt there are people who claim they were straight and claim they are now gay. I also do not doubt there are people who claim they were gay and they are now straight. What I doubt is how fixed they were in their orientation to begin with given that a small percentage of humans seem to have exceptionally high sexual flexibility. It has been proposed that the individuals who are most certain that change efforts are possible are people with a bisexual orientation who assume that everyone is like them and can choose which sex to focus their attention towards.
 
Prove it, so far you haven't.

Actually, I did. I'm walking anecdotal evidence. I also pointed out a good study. You are the one who has failed to provide any evidence.

Nothing can really be proven about homosexuality in the empirical sense because it would require that people be made into homosexuals or heterosexuals in a laboratory setting where all variables could be controlled and causation could be established. That would not be ethical.
 
I am highly interested in identifying the reasons why we draw the conclusions we draw.

I would like to point out it was you who ultimately drew a conclusion that change from a homosexual orientation is possible.
 
Actually, I did. I'm walking anecdotal evidence. I also pointed out a good study. You are the one who has failed to provide any evidence.

Nothing can really be proven about homosexuality in the empirical sense because it would require that people be made into homosexuals or heterosexuals in a laboratory setting where all variables could be controlled and causation could be established. That would not be ethical.

I used actual evidence not opinions from Wikipedia. You should change your name here as it is not applicable
 
This isn't about whether one is for or against gay marriage.....

Simply vote and discuss whether you believe that homosexuals have a choice in the matter, or were simply born that way, with no choice whatsoever.

Please be courteous - thanks in advance.

I have only thought about the issue briefly, because I always considered it irrelevant to the debate. However, based on my rudimentary understanding of psychology, it would seem to be that homosexuality is, in most cases, not a choice. It is an old argument, but if sexuality is a choice, I certainly do not recall making the decision to be straight. I also recognize the difficulty gay people have when they struggle with their sexuality mentally. To me, it is definitely "they way they are" insofar as that is a description of anything.
 
I used actual evidence not opinions from Wikipedia. You should change your name here as it is not applicable

Ooooookay. Given that you are resorting to personal attacks at this point, I'm going to call that a win on my part. You clearly WANT to believe that homosexuality is a mental health problem. Good luck with that.
 
I agree. desire and attraction can be separated from a preset of conditions that result in orgasm. so if they can be separated, what conditions remain? -that is what i was asking. my answer is that it takes concentration. starting with a choice. We are not slaves to attraction. we can turn it on and off.

What takes concentration? I'm sorry but I can't make sense of this particular thread of thought. To choose to engage in an act, in this case homosexual sex or heterosexual sex, has nothing to do with one's attraction. So choosing to engage in a homosexual act does not change a heterosexual into a homosexual. I'm not getting this whole suppression concept.

What I am saying is that men who have staked their livelihoods and reputations on the claim that homosexuality is changeable, have, after years of trying to do just that with many people, come forward and humbly apologized. Of all the groups that claim such change efforts are possible, NONE have come forward with empirical evidence to support their claims. In fact, the most commonly cited empirical studies of the so called "gay cure" have been recanted.

If you think about it, if there are indeed people who choose to change their orientation then they really aren't going to feel bad about it and thus would have no need or desire to seek any kind of help. If at any point that feel that what they are doing is wrong, then they will decide to change back. They would not be in a position of seeking help thus they would not be in any kind of study of whether or not these therapies help or harm.

While I can see what you mean, it wasn't her choice to get sexually assaulted, therefore I don't consider it a choice to change orientation. She suffered through something extremely traumatic. While I'm a guy, I can imagine if I was raped (as a woman) , it would be difficult to have sexual intercourse with a male again. While she might not have had that orientation before her assault, she still didn't just decide she wanted to switch, something traumatically forced her to change. So in a sense you are right because it is possible for people not to have pre-existing feelings that end up switching, but something traumatic like an assault isn't exactly a choice either. I see it as more of her mind and body going through self-preservation.

Glad she is ok though :D

So then I would have to say that there are 3 possibilities: pre-birth factors, post birth factor and choice.

I have to disagree with you. Well, let's be honest. I don't HAVE to, I choose to.

If what you say about the effects of her trauma are true, then those effects must last forever. No rehabilitation is possible. Is that what you are saying? That the only thing that could "change" her back to her previous orientation would be another sexual assault...?

I say no. the assualt did not force her to change. she chose to change. the assault was a factor in her decision. the effects of trauma do not last forever with proper treatment.

I disagree. By that logic, soldiers with PTSD choose to have the issues they are having.

It was voted off the list not proven by science

By that logic it was also voted in and not proven by science.
 
This isn't about whether one is for or against gay marriage.....

Simply vote and discuss whether you believe that homosexuals have a choice in the matter, or were simply born that way, with no choice whatsoever.

Please be courteous - thanks in advance.

Does anyone decide to be heterosexual?
 
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