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Is Edward Snowden a traitor or a patriot?

Patriot, Traitor, or something else?

  • Traitor (Elaborate)

    Votes: 12 25.0%

  • Patriot (Elaborate)

    Votes: 21 43.8%

  • Other (Elaborate)

    Votes: 12 25.0%

  • I don't know

    Votes: 3 6.3%
  • Total voters
    48
  • Poll closed .
German guy said:
Then you are an authoritarian person who hates civil and human rights, as simple as that.

This "national security" nonsense to justify the most blatant violations of Western values is right from the Nazis' playbook, and people who swallow it will swallow it in any random other case of violation too. And no, this is not godwinning anything. In this case, it is 100% true and absolutely appropriate.

A government that will break the law to spy on the private communication of its citizens will randomly arrest people too, will deny their people fair trials, will enact labor and death camps too -- unless the people stops them. And no, "fighting a foreign enemy" is no excuse (it wasn't valid either when the Nazis used that in 1933).
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Read my FIRST HAND EXPERIENCE in #46 above - PRISM, had it been in place in 2000, could have prevented 9/11 and all the American insanity that resulted from it - including our illegal and unprovoked invasion of Iraq.
 
ttwtt78640 said:
Point taken, but was that even a first step taken in this case?
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Well let us first look at the matter generally. What would the next logical step be? Going to the media?

Following that, we can put Snowden into context. Perhaps he already knew that such a road was futile, and so he chose to skip it and go straight to the media. Then again, I don't know enough about this whole affair to know whether or not he tried going through the usual channels first.
 
Glen Contrarian said:
Read my FIRST HAND EXPERIENCE in #46 above - PRISM, had it been in place in 2000, could have prevented 9/11 and all the American insanity that resulted from it - including our illegal and unprovoked invasion of Iraq.
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Privacy of correspondence is a basic civil right. NOTHING justifies the government violating it. And certainly, the ends never justify the means. Since there is electronic communication, they're maybe abusing a legal loophole according to which emails are not snail mail letters -- which doesn't make it any less heinous.

If the price for security is abandoning basic civil rights, such as privacy of correspondence, that price is too high. I'd rather accept a greater danger of terrorism or crime, than allowing the government reading my private mails without very good reason and substantial evidence against me.

And by the way, if you were a non-Jewish German, life was much, much more safe and secure for you in Nazi Germany, as "private" crime (not by the government) was virtually non-existant -- does that mean this system was superior? I beg to differ.
 
Van Basten said:
Where is this secret police?

No, we are nothing like the Soviet Union. Enough with the theatrics.
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They are secret how would I know where they are.

We have secret prisons to waterboard. We can be held with no charges forever. We are just like the old Soviet Union.
 
CRUE CAB said:
Says the guy from Canada.
The man is a criminal. Theft of information is just as big a deal as if I stole a truck at work.
Its still a crime and due to the fact that US secret info was what he stole, he is a traitor to his nation.
I hope he is found, brought back, given a fair trial and if convicted, sent to the gallows.
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What does my nationality have to do with the validity of my comments? Based on your first sentence, the balance of your post isn't worth looking at.
 
Glen Contrarian said:
Snowden is a traitor. Three weeks before the USS Abraham Lincoln deployed in August 2000, my office - the Security office - got a phone call from someone with a foreign-sounding voice who said that when we pulled into port overseas, they would blow up a ship next to ours. We pulled in to Dubai in early October - we were nervous and kept an eye on everything, but nothing happened. Four days after we departed Dubai, the USS Cole was bombed by a boat that pulled up next to it. In other words, that person knew something...and if we'd had PRISM then, not only would we have found the individual on short order, but we'd have found all those he had contact with...and one of those who helped plan the bombing of the Cole turned out to be one of the 9/11 hijackers. PRISM could have prevented 9/11, if we'd had it then, and by extension could have prevented the decade of right-wing neo-con insanity (and 5000 American military deaths and 100K+ Iraqi deaths) that followed.
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PRISM didn't seem to prevent the Boston bombing.
 
captainawesome said:
I agree, but it appears many on the right value following authority over liberty. If Snowden is imprisoned we will be like Stalin Russia in one decade.

We are on the precipice.
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This has little or nothing to do with right or left ideology.
 
German guy said:
Privacy of correspondence is a basic civil right. NOTHING justifies the government violating it. And certainly, the ends never justify the means. Since there is electronic communication, they're maybe abusing a legal loophole according to which emails are not snail mail letters -- which doesn't make it any less heinous.

If the price for security is abandoning basic civil rights, such as privacy of correspondence, that price is too high. I'd rather accept a greater danger of terrorism or crime, than allowing the government reading my private mails without very good reason and substantial evidence against me.

And by the way, if you were a non-Jewish German, life was much, much more safe and secure for you in Nazi Germany, as "private" crime (not by the government) was virtually non-existant -- does that mean this system was superior? I beg to differ.
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According to the supreme court, there is no expectation of privacy for phone calls, much less texting or internet search history or anything like that.
 
German guy said:
Privacy of correspondence is a basic civil right. NOTHING justifies the government violating it. And certainly, the ends never justify the means. Since there is electronic communication, they're maybe abusing a legal loophole according to which emails are not snail mail letters -- which doesn't make it any less heinous.

If the price for security is abandoning basic civil rights, such as privacy of correspondence, that price is too high. I'd rather accept a greater danger of terrorism or crime, than allowing the government reading my private mails without very good reason and substantial evidence against me.

And by the way, if you were a non-Jewish German, life was much, much more safe and secure for you in Nazi Germany, as "private" crime (not by the government) was virtually non-existant -- does that mean this system was superior? I beg to differ.
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Really? What about the basic civil rights of the 100,000+ Iraqi men, women, and children who were killed by us because Bush was able to use 9/11 as an excuse to invade Iraq?

Yes, Nazi Germany was a domestic surveillance state, and so have been all the communist states. But you know what? SO HAVE WE! Look up what J. Edgar Hoover did sometime.

I don't enjoy people being able to see what sites I've visited or what phone numbers I've called...but that's what governments do. We in the socialized democracies of the world are lucky in that our respective governments are much less likely to take overt action against those who are against the government...but every single government of any type will keep an eye on those who oppose it, foreign or domestic. To think that it will ever be otherwise is sheer naivete.
 
Josie said:
Are there any instances where breaking the law is the right thing to do?
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Depends on your moral values, doesn't it? Me, in this case, there are better ways to handle classified information you feel there are problems with.
 
Unitedwestand13 said:
Snowden is not making a good case for himself based on the company he is keeping. Supposedly he is in Moscow preparing to fly to Ecuador, which is coincidently where Julian assange of wikileaks is hiding out.
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Actually, Julian Assange isn't in Ecuador. He is in the Ecuadorian Embassy in London and has been for the past year.
 
German guy said:
Then the US government are criminals. I'm pretty sure that these surveillance programs violate many different kinds of constitutional and human right standards. If not, the system is seriously ****ed up and it's high time to finally make laws that prevent the government from grotesquely spitting into the face of Western values.

Snowden is a hero fighting against a government that grossly oversteps its competence in an authoritarian fashion (and no, I don't think Obama is any more to blame than the Presidents in office before him).
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And I have stated a better system of oversight of confidential programs is needed.

I would not call him a hero, since he specifically did not try the legal channels available to address the issue.
 
ttwtt78640 said:
So you feel that each person may now freely pick and choose what classified material may be released?
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Personally, I believe that had Snowden simply disclosed that the government was collecting blanket information from communications entities he would have been able to remain in the US and likely would have been prosecuted, yet acquited by a jury of his peers. According to the detail coming out of the White House and the administration related to these activities and the success of these activities, they feel they can justify the extent of their data gathering. In effect, they are saying that it's no big deal. Hard to convict a guy for treason when what he released is no big deal.

Snowden's problem is that he fled the country, potentially with additional corroborating data, potentially embarrassing to the administration, and that makes his actions far more suspect.
 
To all -

Notice that my bio says I "lean progressive". I am quite progressive (as can be seen here)...but that doesn't mean that liberal/progressive/Democratic views are always right - that's why I'm a contrarian. Sometimes - if only rarely - the conservatives are right. When it comes to Snowden and Bradley Manning, the conservatives are right.
 
Glen Contrarian said:
And seat belts don't prevent all traffic deaths, either...but that doesn't mean that seat belts aren't a very, very good idea that save many, many lives.
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Can you give me one example of someone whose life was saved by PRISM?
 
specklebang said:
Unless there is later indication that Snowden profited from his actions, I see a man who sacrificed his life for his country.

Had he remained in America, under our draconian "Patriot Act" he might have been buried underground in a box for the rest of his life. He certainly wouldn't be allowed in open court since our furtive agencies have too much to lose.

I hope he is given refuge and can live as normal a life as possible wherever he ends up.

Our government has become increasingly powerful and evil. I doubt this will change anything but you have to try.
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I agree with much of what you've said but I have to disagree that Snowden would have been buried somewhere and never gotten a trial - even a person accused of treason in America has the right to a public, jury trial and the many civil liberties organizations in America and the Supreme Court would see to it.
 
Glen Contrarian said:
To all -

Notice that my bio says I "lean progressive". I am quite progressive (as can be seen here)...but that doesn't mean that liberal/progressive/Democratic views are always right - that's why I'm a contrarian. Sometimes - if only rarely - the conservatives are right. When it comes to Snowden and Bradley Manning, the conservatives are right.
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Which conservatives and which liberals? There is a split on both sides in regards to those two.
 
captainawesome said:
Of course it does.

Right wing ideology supports a police state to get terrorists and enforce their sexual morality.
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As a conservative, I can vouch that for at least one person that's just nonsense. It is perhaps the most liberal ideologue in a half century who sits in the White House who has expanded this program without apparent concern and it is the liberals of your country who are enforcing their sexual morality, as it relates to gay marriage and access to abortion etc., on your society.
 
CanadaJohn said:
Personally, I believe that had Snowden simply disclosed that the government was collecting blanket information from communications entities he would have been able to remain in the US and likely would have been prosecuted, yet acquited by a jury of his peers. According to the detail coming out of the White House and the administration related to these activities and the success of these activities, they feel they can justify the extent of their data gathering. In effect, they are saying that it's no big deal. Hard to convict a guy for treason when what he released is no big deal.

Snowden's problem is that he fled the country, potentially with additional corroborating data, potentially embarrassing to the administration, and that makes his actions far more suspect.
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Good afternoon, CJ! :2wave:

Ah, the life of a whistleblower can take many unseen twists and turns, can't it? Too bad, because he apparently did the public a service by letting the light of day shine on what was going on in secret! :doh: :argue:
 
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