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What about the polygamists!?! [W:693]

What say you?


  • Total voters
    87
  • Poll closed .
A plural marriage is not one marriage with more than two participants. In fact, “a plural marriage” really isn't even grammatically correct. It's plural marriages. More than one marriage.

My great-great grandfather did not have one marriage which included him and his four or five wives. He had four or five marriages, which each joined him to a separate wife. Each of this marriages was between one man, and one woman; it was the same man in each marriage, but a different woman.

LOL, you can keep doing mental gymnastics all you want. Either way you want to call it, the bible condones it and you don't. Why do you think you know more than god?
 
LOL, you can keep doing mental gymnastics all you want. Either way you want to call it, the bible condones it and you don't. Why do you think you know more than god?

Exactly where in the Bible does it condone plural marriages?
 
LOL, you can keep doing mental gymnastics all you want. Either way you want to call it, the bible condones it and you don't. Why do you think you know more than god?

Why are you so sure that I don't condone plural marriage?

As it happens, I believe that my religion is led by a true prophet of God, who receives instructions therefrom. At some point, early in its history, God commanded through his prophet that some members of my religion should practice polygamy. Later, he commanded that this practice should be discontinued. There's always a possibility that God, through his prophet, may again command that the practice be restored. Whatever God may command on the subject, I see no basis for you to suggest that I have claimed to know better than God. For the time being, I do not condone plural marriage, because the most recent instruction that we have from God on the subject is that we should not practice it. If God should choose to command otherwise, then I will condone it.


What makes you think that you know more than I do about my own family history and heritage; or my own beliefs?
 
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This is kinda where the argument gets muddy. Especially when it starts with "a married person should be able to marry other people, too", because it's adding a person into a marriage without the consent of the other person already in the marriage. If two men are married, and then they both marry two women, who are both already married... did both spouses of the two women have full knowledge of all the links in this chain? Did they give consent to each person in the chain to join it? Are they all spouses to each other? What rights do each end of the chain have towards the other end in terms of property, inheritance, or children?

In principal, I see no reason to restrict marriage to pairs. In practice, it strikes me as incredibly muddy and complex. Joining marriages together seems like a terrible way to do it, but allowing a person to only be in one marriage at once, but not limiting that marriage to two people, strikes me as more reasonable.

Either way, it's an entirely different argument than gay marriage, and the attempts by the anti-SSM crowd to link them got old a long time ago.

I'm a bit of a Heinleiner, and he covers the subject of plural marriages at great length.

He was obviously in favor, and his reasoning centers around the raising of children.

In a nutshell, the benefit is distribution of child rearing duties, as well as interpersonal ones. If a child has six parents instead of two, they are literally three times as likely to get the attention they need at any given time. Same with spouses within the marriage.

Its all contractual, and the complexities of this are examined as well.

Sounds great to me.

The rub is that at this point in time, its not really practical.

I've spent a lot of time on the hippy fringe, and "free love" rarely turns out that way.

But I've seen groups many times FUNCTIONING as an extended family, without the sex. Spreading the burdens around really works, and was the model we used prior to adopting a sedentary lifestyle.

For reference, I've also seen polyamory work. But it takes exeptionally self aware individuals.

"One man one woman" was adopted because the rich and powerful men hogging up all the women, which has been common practise at some point in every culture, didn't end well. Hopeless, horny males get very angry.

I think as we mature as a species, and begin to live longer, plural marriage will become a viable lifestyle choice. But we habe to work out jealousy, possessiveness, ego, etc., first.
 


Exactly where in the Bible does it condone plural marriages?

I'm not going to go hunting down specific references right now, but it is clear throughout the Old Testament that plural marriage is, at the very least, permitted. I can only recall, off the top of my head, two instances that I would say go as far as to “condone” the practice.

One is the practice of “levirate marriage”, wherein the brother of a man who died without producing a son is obligated to take the widow as his own wife (even if he is already married) and to designate the firstborn son of that union as the heir to his deceased brother. If the surviving brother already has a wife, then to take his brother's widow as well would be to practice plural marriage.

The other instance involves King David; after his transgression with Bathsheba. God, tells David, through the prophet Nathan, that God had given David all the wives he legitimately had, and would have given him more if more were needed. For God tell tell David that he had given him all his wives is certainly to tacitly condone David having all those wives. David's great sin, of course, was to lust after and take another man's wife, and then to murder that other man in order to cover up his crime.
 
Why should it matter to me what consenting adults choose to do, or who they choose to marry? It's none of my business.
 
I'm a bit of a Heinleiner, and he covers the subject of plural marriages at great length.

He was obviously in favor, and his reasoning centers around the raising of children.

In a nutshell, the benefit is distribution of child rearing duties, as well as interpersonal ones. If a child has six parents instead of two, they are literally three times as likely to get the attention they need at any given time.

That would only make sense if we assume that the six “parents” are producing children at a rate that would otherwise only take two genuine parents to achieve; and this seems like a wildly unrealistic assumption.

More realistic is that the six “parents” in this one “family” would collectively produce a similar number of children similar to that which would be produced by three normal families with two parents each. Each child may have three times as many “parents”, but would also be competing with three times as many “siblings” for the attention of these “parents”.
 
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As a lawyer, legally speaking, it's going to happen so you might want to mentally start to accept it.


-Once you begin to legalize gay marriage you cannot legally legitimately say for long "Oh, yes, man and man can marry, but woman, woman and man cannot marry".

-Why not?

-Because legally speaking it is a fallible argument which means it's doomed long term in the US court system.

-Consider

-Two women make $85,000 a year each, man makes $50,000 a year. Those three walk into court room with top lawyer, argue that we can biologically make our own children, the man earns less, this is natural, we're all in love, our human rights are being violated, It's over. They're going to eventually win when they argue, rightfully so, that those two men that you just let marry can't even make children together, yet you won't marry us three who can? Again, It's over right then and there legally speaking. Perhaps that won't be the case that decides it, but eventually, many multiplied cases will usher that.
 

let me throw something at you and see what you think.

suppose a person could marry 10 people, and say that person had a good job, with health benefits, and in the marriage there are 22 children, this makes 33 people that the insurance company that the person works for woulds have to provide for.
 
That would only make sense if we assume that the six “parents” are producing children at a rate that would otherwise only take two genuine parents to achieve; and this seems like a wildly unrealistic assumption.

More realistic is that the six “parents” in this one “family” would collectively produce a similar number of children similar to that which would be produced by three normal families with two parents each. Each child may have three times as many “parents”, but would also be competing with three times as many “siblings” for the attention of these “parents”.

I consider overpopulation to be an approaching issue, so this argument falls flat.

And as to competition for attention. Nobody is "on" all the time. Not for a kid or a spouse. Other times everybody is extra "on", able to "be there" for the whole clan.

Stress on parents is a known. Many hands make light work.

Two can live as cheaply as one. How cheaply can six or twelve live.

You're just being dismissive here.
 
let me throw something at you and see what you think.

suppose a person could marry 10 people, and say that person had a good job, with health benefits, and in the marriage there are 22 children, this makes 33 people that the insurance company that the person works for woulds have to provide for.

Contractual technicalities.
 
Contractual technicalities.

today we have people who will sell marriage to foreigners to get into the u.s.

if plural marriages were to take place you would have people selling marriage for........ benefits...IE ..healthcare would be the main one.
 
today we have people who will sell marriage to foreigners to get into the u.s.

if plural marriages were to take place you would have people selling marriage for........ benefits...IE ..healthcare would be the main one.

So you're down for the state telling you how to live your life.

Got it.
 
No. It's too much effort for not enough gain. Changing marriage laws to accommodate multiple marriages would cost a lot of money, and not many people would take advantage.

I'm fine with letting people draft their own 'marriage' contracts among multiple partners, dealing with custody of children, power of attorney, next of kin, disposition of property, etc and recognizing them as legal though.

Can't really vote in the poll because none of the options fit my views. And our cat's name isn't mittens.

I prefer simplicity myself, but this is not, in and of itself, enough of a valid argument to deny otherwise peaceful people being allowed to live their lives as they see fit. Yes, there would be some legal complexities, but they could be addressed.
 
No.

It is not possible for two men to be married. By definition, marriage has always been, is, and will always be a union between a man and a woman. It is the basis of every stable human society that ever has or ever will exist.

My concern is over the severe damage that will unavoidably be done to our society, and to everyone in it, if we are forced to accept a sick, vulgar mockery of marriage as being in any way comparable to the real thing. Our society can only be as stable as its foundation. If we make our foundation out of garbage, then that is what our society will become.

Knock, knock.
Who's there?
Gay marriage.

gay.jpg
 
well no, i am down with a comapny telling you their not going to cover you because you have to many people and trying to load the benefit roster.

Well I think employer provided healthcare AND for profit "insurance" are stupid ways to deliver healthcare.

How about we actually solve the problem of delivering healthcare and let people live their loves as they see fit.

(That's a typo, but I'm leavin it)
 
Well I think employer provided healthcare AND for profit "insurance" are stupid ways to deliver healthcare.


well thats your opinion, but companies are free to get into the insurance business.

How about we actually solve the problem of delivering healthcare and let people live their loves as they see fit.

and how do we do that, let people live their life's as they see fit, if the federal government compels us to do things (healthcare) which they have no authority under the constitution to do.
 
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-------------- Most of my knowledge of polygamy comes from the highly publicized prosecutions of cultists. These cases all seem to involve religion-based brainwashing and old farts marrying underage girls. Totally unacceptable. Otherwise, if no coercion is involved, I guess PM is okay with me.
Exactly, among consenting adults, with no coercion, then whatever within the species.
 
well thats your opinion, but companies are free to get into the insurance business.



and how do we do that, let people live their life's as they see fit, if the federal government compels us to do things (healthcare) which they have no authority under the constitution to do.

Well we didn't do the obvious thing, which was a bare bones uhc system with for profit upgrades.

Nobody suffers needlessly, those who want more are free to pay for it. Fear of death/suffering is removed from the healthcare price setting system. Hospitals no longer have an excuse to charge twenty dollars for an aspirin.
 
I have no problem with polygamous marriage, but only after we've figured out the legal problems inherent in allowing it. Solve those problems and I'm fine with it, but not until.
 
Polygamy should remain outlawed, but it should also be up to the state to grant it any kind of legal validity and shouldn't be barred from doing so.
 
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