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Is state nullification constitutional?

Is state nullification constitutional?

  • Yes

    Votes: 15 35.7%
  • No

    Votes: 24 57.1%
  • Other/Don't know

    Votes: 3 7.1%

  • Total voters
    42
It's an interesting question. I don't think it's unconstitutional, but I'm pretty sure it is a violation of federal law to interfere with federal officers who are performing their duty.
That is dependent upon their duty, and whether it is within federal authority. If an IRS officer is enforcing the tax code a state may not nullify that or interfere as the federal does have tax powers, should there be a situation where a military action is needed, such as a foreign invasion of a state's borders the state may not interfere with the defensive authority of the U.S. military. However if those agents are acting outside of their constitutional authority a state may interfere if they so choose. I'll give you a RL example of this, during the gulf well blowout the feds were "red taping" the cleanup process and more getting in the way than helping, a local parish head told them if they continued he would have them arrested on felony obstruction charges, the feds backed down.

Thus, such laws would place any officer who tries to enforce state law into the unenviable situation of having to violate federal law in order to do so.
Federal law is only as applicable as the authority to enforce it, under a proper interpretation the feds would lose a majority of challenges.
 
How convenient that the very same corrupt government that refuses to obey the Constitution is given the power to determine what the Constitution does or does not allow it to do; and therefore to rule that the Constitution allows it to do whatever the hell it wants to do;.
"Prigg" is a perfect example of just how stupid judicial review really is, it states powers not found in the constitution. Basically it's nine agendists with no accountability giving the federal government a pass, now the court relies on that bad precedent to further give a pass to laws that are directly against the citizens of the United States.
 
Study your Constitution folks, it is made up of more than the Bill of Rights and the subsequent amendments:

Article VI, Clause 2: This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in pursuance thereof; and all treaties made, or which shall be made, under the authority of the United States, shall be the supreme law of the land; and the judges in every state shall be bound thereby, anything in the constitution or laws of any state to the contrary notwithstanding.

Furthermore, the U.S. Supreme Cout has already ruled in a series of eight cases, that nullification is a violation of the Constitution. Most Specifically in Cooper v. Aaron, 358 U.S. 1 (1958) where a state law tried to nullify the courts desegregation decision in Brown vs. The Board of Education; and Edgar v. MITE Corp., 457 U.S. 624 (1982), when it ruled A state statute is void to the extent that it actually conflicts with a valid Federal statute.

So as long as this remains "The UNITED States," states will be bound by both Supreme Court rulings and Federal laws; nullification is just grandstanding.
Study it yourself, and remember what's been underlined. "Under the authority" means enumerated powers, "in the constitution" means those amendments and articles specifically enumerating those powers. If a power is not granted to the federal then too ****ing bad, they don't have it and must ask the states to relinquish it. There is only ONE exception, and that is when a power is not specifically granted the federal may borrow from another of it's powers if they meet the necessary and proper requirement, they must prove that the law they want is of compelling national interest and must(proper) prove that the need and law are found somewhere within their powers granted.
 
I find it very interesting that several members who support nullification attempted to use my quote of the Supremacy Clause (Article VI, Clause 2) against my position. Interesting because while they correctly point out it is laws (and treaties) enacted under Constitutional authority which are paramount, they completely ignore the second statement in my post where I indicated that in every case where a nullification attempt was challenged before the Supreme Court, the state(s) lost.

The Supreme Court is the final arbiter of Constitutional law. This was determined in their own ruling under Marbury v. Madison, 5 U.S. 137 (1803). They held that for every violation of a vested legal right, there must be a legal remedy; Congress does not have the power to modify the Supreme Court's original jurisdiction established under Article III, Section 2, Clause 2; and that Acts of Congress that conflict with the Constitution are not law and the Courts are bound instead to follow the Constitution (affirming the principle of judicial review).

The purpose of state nullification is to force the Federal government to challenge the issue before the Supreme Court, in hopes the Court will find the law passed by Congress un-Constitutional. Now it is true this experiment has been tried several times in our past history, and some claim with success. However, these successes only occurred when there was no challenge made before the Supreme Court; i.e. either some compromise was reached with Congress (South Carolina’s attempt against the Tariff Acts of 1828/32), or the issue became moot (Northern states nullification of the Fugitive Slave Act by subsequent passage of the 14th Amendment).

But in EVERY CASE where the issue has come before the Supreme Court, state nullification has failed. This because the Court held in every case that the laws passed by Congress were Constitutional (usually falling under the Commerce Clause) and therefore valid against the states under the Supremacy Clause.

Today we have states passing laws legalizing marijuana in contravention of the Controlled Substances Act, or laws so restrictive they almost (but not quite) eliminate abortions which violates the Fourth Amendment right to privacy per Roe v. Wade, 410 U.S. 113 (1973). In the case of marijuana there is a sympathetic ear in the Executive Branch which intends (currently) not to challenge the issue. Action is still pending on the anti-abortion laws by local Pro-Choice advocates.

Still, if either of these issues were presented to the current Justices of the Supreme Court, it is highly likely they would support all prior interpretations of the Supremacy Clause and the state laws would fail. Therefore, my position concerning nullification being inherently un-Constitutional stands.
 
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I find it very interesting that several members who support nullification attempted to use my quote of the Supremacy Clause (Article VI, Clause 2) against my position. Interesting because while they correctly point out it is laws (and treaties) enacted under Constitutional authority which are paramount, they completely ignore the second statement in my post where I indicated that in every case where a nullification attempt was challenged before the Supreme Court, the state(s) lost.

Of course, when you put a corrupt government in charge of making its own determination regarding what it is or is not allowed to do, the results are going to favor that corrupt government, and not the people who that government is supposed to represent and serve.

The Supreme Court is the final arbiter of Constitutional law. This was determined in their own ruling under Marbury v. Madison, 5 U.S. 137 (1803).

Quod erat demonstrandum.

The fox, put in charge of guarding the chickens, claims the chickens for itself rather than protecting the interests of the chickens' rightful owner.
 
Of course, when you put a corrupt government in charge of making its own determination regarding what it is or is not allowed to do, the results are going to favor that corrupt government, and not the people who that government is supposed to represent and serve.



Quod erat demonstrandum.

The fox, put in charge of guarding the chickens, claims the chickens for itself rather than protecting the interests of the chickens' rightful owner.

:) Well that is an understandable argument since I personnally lost all trust in this government after passage of the Patriot Act. However, the argument was whether or not nullification was Constitutional and both the Supremacy Clause and all Supreme Court decisions whenever the issue was placed before them indicate it is NOT Constitutional.

As long as we remain citizens of states who remain part of The UNITED States, we have to live with that fact. Whether we should remain under this government is a different issue entirely. ;)
 
The Supremacy clause only applies to actions that the federal government takes legitimately, within the powers that the Constitution delegates to it.
Sure. But it's the job of the judiciary to determine whether a law or action is constitutional. The states have no mechanism to arbitrarily declare that "X is unconstitutional."

History also clearly shows us that in many cases, the states object to something for political reason rather than out of an enlightened concept of the separation of powers. E.g. the state of Alabama ultimately was not justified in upholding and promoting segregation, and was happy to use "state's rights" as a political prop to continue a variety of harmful racist policies. To imagine that state governments are not every bit as political and angling to increase their power and influence as the federal government, is naïve.


Our federal government now does many, many, many things which fall well outside its legitimate power.
That's your opinion. And while you are entitled to your opinion, the reality is that there is no objective or impartial way to determine whether a law or action is "constitutional." The Constitution and the laws were written by human beings; the framers were pretty much all politicians, with their own conflicting agendas; they were in many respects written with the intention of granting future generations latitude; and it us up to us, the living, to decide how we want our government to operate.

And like it or not, sometimes we just have to disobey the Constitution. I realize, of course, that few people actually like to admit it, but sooner or later everyone does it or demands it. The Constitution is not perfect; it was written not just by human beings, but politicians who had no choice but to strike ugly compromises to get the thing done. The framers are no longer alive, could not have predicted the precise challenges facing future generations, and... they're dead. They don't have to live with the consequences of policy decisions allegedly made in their name.


And yet you're eager and willing to grant the federal government the power to pass laws which blatantly violate the Constitution, and to declare by fiat that these laws are Constitutional.
Incorrect.

Neither the legislative nor executive branches can make a binding declaration that their actions are constitutional; I'm explicitly stating that federal and state laws are subject to judicial review.

In turn, the courts are subject to several checks and balances, including appointment by the Executive Branch, confirmation by the Legislature, the possibility of impeachment, and the option of amending the Constitution. It's not perfect, but it's a decent option.
 
That is dependent upon their duty, and whether it is within federal authority. If an IRS officer is enforcing the tax code a state may not nullify that or interfere as the federal does have tax powers, should there be a situation where a military action is needed, such as a foreign invasion of a state's borders the state may not interfere with the defensive authority of the U.S. military. However if those agents are acting outside of their constitutional authority a state may interfere if they so choose. I'll give you a RL example of this, during the gulf well blowout the feds were "red taping" the cleanup process and more getting in the way than helping, a local parish head told them if they continued he would have them arrested on felony obstruction charges, the feds backed down.

Federal law is only as applicable as the authority to enforce it, under a proper interpretation the feds would lose a majority of challenges.

But State's have no power to determine whether or not something falls outside of the federal government's constitutional authority. The example you give is not one where the Feds were attempting to execute the duties dictated to them by a federal law. That is a major distinction between that analogy and the hypothetical scenario in the thread. One that prevents teh two scenarios form being comparable, in fact.

The feds backed down in the analogy, presumably because they were NOT carrying out their duties (as defined by federal law). If there was a federal law calling on them to do what they were doing, however, then it's a totally different matter.
 
Nullification efforts are mounting in states across the country. Kansas recently made it a felony for federal agents to enforce federal gun laws on guns made in Kansas. A law here in Missouri recently passed with huge super-majorities, so it will come into effect regardless of whether Governor Nixon vetoes it. So my question is whether or not those laws are constitutional.

I'd like to make a distinction between those laws and the marijuana laws that have come into effect and are mentioned in the source as examples of nullification. Those laws merely legalize marijuana in the state, but do not prevent federal agents from enforcing the federal laws against it. As I understand it, this type of law was ruled constitutional in Prigg v Pennsylvania where it was said that the states cannot be compelled to use state law enforcement resources to enforce federal law. Rather, what I am talking about are laws that prevent even federal agents from enforcing the federal laws.

I think that nullification laws should be legal, but I think the current Supreme Court will rule them unconstitutional 5-4.
 
Question for people who are citing/supporting the Virginia/Kentucky resolutions:

If a state pased laws preventing the feds from deporting illegal immigrants that reside within that state, would you support that state's right to do so?


I'm just curious to see how consistent people are.
 
How convenient that the very same corrupt government that refuses to obey the Constitution is given the power to determine what the Constitution does or does not allow it to do; and therefore to rule that the Constitution allows it to do whatever the hell it wants to do;.

And you can thank those same Founding Fathers so beloved by 'conservatives' when they think it suits, for that! Remember the system was set-up long ago.
 
The Supremacy clause only applies to actions that the federal government takes legitimately, within the powers that the Constitution delegates to it.

Our federal government now does many, many, many things which fall well outside its legitimate power. In fact, it has many policies which blatantly violate the Constitution. Various corrupt acts of legislation, and various corrupt court rulings notwithstanding, the Supremacy clause does not legitimate these acts of corruption, nor does it deny states the authority and the duty to defy this corruption.

As we can see there are many differing opinions on Constitutional. What certain Founders say outside the Constitution means little as the States never ratified those documents. What we do know for certain is the Founders (Madison among them) set up the Supreme Court. From the earliest days it has functioned as the authority on what is and isn't Constitutional.

The Court Justices are accountable. Samuel Chase, a signer of the Declaration of Independence, was impeached in 1804.

A lot of the hard right rants are highly opinionated, I see the law one way and you another... the determiner was set-up by the Founders.
 
If states can enact laws that ignore federal marijuana laws and enact sanctuary city policies then surely states can surely enact laws that repeal unconstitutional federal laws.

If. If not, then those laws can be overturned as well.
 
I think that nullification laws should be legal, but I think the current Supreme Court will rule them unconstitutional 5-4.

I disagree, the Supreme Court will rule them unconstitutional 9-0, on this the SC is very consistent.
 
But State's have no power to determine whether or not something falls outside of the federal government's constitutional authority.
It's already spelled out in the constitution, the state is under no compulsion to uphold laws based upon powers the federal doesn't have, which is why within their borders those laws are null. I'll give you a perfect example, the 21 drinking law, the federal made 21 the age of consent in the mid 80s, Louisiana did not change the law until the federal coerced(i.e. extortion to us) my state holding highway funds hostage. Even then we had a loophole that allowed 18 year olds to drink under certain circumstances(in a on premise drinking establishment iirc). The federal could never win that in court, they had to coerce my state. Same with gun control, etc. they have no authority.

The example you give is not one where the Feds were attempting to execute the duties dictated to them by a federal law. That is a major distinction between that analogy and the hypothetical scenario in the thread. One that prevents teh two scenarios form being comparable, in fact.
Actually, those agents claimed authority under EPA policies and were citing federal law left and right but it doesn't matter, if the law has no authority, they have no authority.

The states could technically hang these agents for "attempt to overthrow" if they so wanted to and the fed couldn't do a thing about it. The only exception would be if the agents were acting with full authority under legitimate federal purview such as the IRS(taxes), and Military under legitimate defense of borders, etc.



The feds backed down in the analogy, presumably because they were NOT carrying out their duties (as defined by federal law). If there was a federal law calling on them to do what they were doing, however, then it's a totally different matter.
It wasn't an analogy, it was a real event. The agents were following the letter of federal law and much like most of those morons were in the way, Nungesser flat told them to stand down or rot in jail awaiting felony charges.
 
Nullification is not constitutional.

Nullification attempts have been "moral" and "immoral" over time. States were forced to adhere to the fugitive slave act and forced to desegregate and end Jim Crow.

At the end of the day you can't have a nation with 50 states heading in different directions. The Articles of Confederation didn't work.

The Fugitive Slave Act was Constitutional since it was based on the requirment in the Constitution for the States to recover escaed slaves per Article 4 Section 2.



THE US CONSTITUTION ARTICLE 4 SECT 3 PARAGRAPH 3: No Person held to Service or Labor in one State, under the Laws therof, escaping into another, shall, in Consequence of any Law or Regulation therein, be discharged form such Service or Labour, but shall be delivered up on Claim of the Party to whom such Service or Labour may be due.


And for ending Jim Crow it was the belated enforcement of the 14th Amendment 1st section. See the underlined.


All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due processof law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

 
And you can thank those same Founding Fathers so beloved by 'conservatives' when they think it suits, for that! Remember the system was set-up long ago.

The founding fathers did not give the Supreme Court the sole power to determine Constitutionality, nor to uphold blatantly unconstitutional laws. This is a power that this corrupt body illegitimately seized for itself.
 
Question for people who are citing/supporting the Virginia/Kentucky resolutions:

If a state pased laws preventing the feds from deporting illegal immigrants that reside within that state, would you support that state's right to do so?


I'm just curious to see how consistent people are.

I don't see what inconsistency this would indicate.

Defending the nation against foreign invaders falls very solidly under the power of national defense, which is explicitly the duty and responsibility of the federal government. States have no authority to obstruct the federal government from carrying out this duty.

In fact, to willfully harbor such foreign invaders would clearly constitute treason.
 
The founding fathers did not give the Supreme Court the sole power to determine Constitutionality, nor to uphold blatantly unconstitutional laws. This is a power that this corrupt body illegitimately seized for itself.

Actually they did. They gave the federal court supremacy AND the precedent for the Supreme Court was set while the Founding Fathers were both alive and in various positions in government. It was during the Marshall Court of 1801-1835. Not REAL sure how a court can 'seize' power, pretty sure the other two branches could have brought that to a screeching halt if it was infact illegal. DO know congress critters hate the idea of someone getting to tell them what is Constitutional, interfering with their sense of dominance.

No Sir, you are going to have to explain why the other two branches sat idly if the 'seizure' was infact illegal.
 
The founding fathers did not give the Supreme Court the sole power to determine Constitutionality, nor to uphold blatantly unconstitutional laws. This is a power that this corrupt body illegitimately seized for itself.
It still amazes me that Congress didn't challenge Marbury v. Madison at that time, my best guess is they didn't want a full blown political struggle like that because of how new the rebuplic was. It seems though Congress looks more and more to delegate it's powers away, which is not only dangerous for the people of our country but seemingly a tactically ridiculous thing to do.
 
It still amazes me that Congress didn't challenge Marbury v. Madison at that time, my best guess is they didn't want a full blown political struggle like that because of how new the rebuplic was. It seems though Congress looks more and more to delegate it's powers away, which is not only dangerous for the people of our country but seemingly a tactically ridiculous thing to do.

They have only seemingly delegated their powers to other in DC for which they have oversight...
 
They have only seemingly delegated their powers to other in DC for which they have oversight...
Right, but the problem is that the delegated powers end up in agencies appointed by Congress but they are not accountable to elections or the people in any real way. The agencies act "under the discretion of congressional approval" to an extent, but they are not granted powers in and of themselves in any constitutional way, many times acting directly outside of constitutional restraits.
 
Right, but the problem is that the delegated powers end up in agencies appointed by Congress but they are not accountable to elections or the people in any real way. The agencies act "under the discretion of congressional approval" to an extent, but they are not granted powers in and of themselves in any constitutional way, many times acting directly outside of constitutional restraits.

Oh, I absolutely agree. The meaning of the post was that Congress attempts to wash its hands of the powers it has delegated. Many agencies now have more immediate power than Congress, and That will be very difficult, if not impossible, to reign in given the political division in the country...
 
Oh, I absolutely agree. The meaning of the post was that Congress attempts to wash its hands of the powers it has delegated. Many agencies now have more immediate power than Congress, and That will be very difficult, if not impossible, to reign in given the political division in the country...
To me that's just the start, they don't fight when presidents issue blatantly illigal executive orders, an ever increasing trend since at least the Clinton years, they don't fight against idiotic rulings by SCOTUS, things they have very legitimate check powers to. They seem to just kind of go along to get along which is NOT why they are there.
 
To me that's just the start, they don't fight when presidents issue blatantly illigal executive orders, an ever increasing trend since at least the Clinton years, they don't fight against idiotic rulings by SCOTUS, things they have very legitimate check powers to. They seem to just kind of go along to get along which is NOT why they are there.

Again, this is all being done due to the current political divisiveness. We began as one nation, but the longer we exist, the more we divide, much like cellular division...
 
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