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Moral question (don't click if you're squeamish)...

Should the sadistic billionaire's offer be legal?

  • Total voters
    30
Peter Grimm said:
This is in direct response to the "should prostitution be legal" thread, and is intended to make you think. It surprises me how many of you answered "yes" to the question, this in spite of all the data which shows prostitutes suffer from a variety of diseases and psychological disorders - including heightened suicide rates - as a direct result of their profession.

Therefore, you are saying it's OK to pay someone to harm themselves as long as both parties are consenting. Fine, but how far are you willing to take this logic?

Here is a hypothetical question, answer it "yes" or "no."



Suppose a sadistic billionaire went around offering poor people a million dollars each to have their eyes removed. The procedure would be carried out by a licensed plastic surgeon, under sedation, in a certified medical facility. Should that be legal? Both parties are consenting.

What if the sadistic billionaire offered one of your parents, or your adult children, and they accepted? Should that be legal?

What if the sadistic billionaire offered someone high on drugs, or a heavily addicted drug addict? What if they offered the elderly, or mentally impaired?

Is it simply a case of two consenting adults involved in a financial transaction, or is there more to it? Is the sadistic billionaire taking advantage of the poor person's problems?
Click to expand...

I say no.Prostitution and cutting off body parts is not the same.
 
Peter Grimm said:
So that doesn't throw a red flag up for you? Hey, here's this profession that pretty much only drug users and mentally unstable people get in to...
Click to expand...

You have data to back this up or is this statement coming out of your ass?

where the women are 40 times more likely to kill themselves?
Click to expand...

Forty times more likely than who? Data source or is this more ass talk?

I don't know man. I think we should be helping these women, not enabling their demise. Most adults are capable of looking out for themselves, but there is a small percentage who need to be looked after. We can't just enable them to destroy themselves.
Click to expand...

You could first help by changing your attitude.

Or is it that your attitude is fine and the prostitutes are the ones who need to change? Hmmm?

Tell us, Peter, what is your experience with prostitutes. You DO have personal experiences with prostitutes don't you?

What is your position (oh the pun) regarding pre-marital sex? Casual sex?
 
Peter Grimm said:
You're 69 years old, so you should have enough life experience to know, on some level, that you're being deceived.

What do you think Sonia is going to tell you? She's going to tell you what you want to hear, because you're her meal ticket. She's a professional actress? Yeah, around you. Her life is an act.

She's selling you a fantasy. Sonia might not even be her real name.

You believe her act because you want to. You want to believe that a beautiful, young girl really wants to have sex with you, no strings attached.
Click to expand...

Um, maybe you didn't read the whole post, but it sounded like there were a few hundred dollars worth of strings attached.
 
Risky Thicket said:
You have data to back this up or is this statement coming out of your ass?



Forty times more likely than who? Data source or is this more ass talk?



You could first help by changing your attitude.

Or is it that your attitude is fine and the prostitutes are the ones who need to change? Hmmm?

Tell us, Peter, what is your experience with prostitutes. You DO have personal experiences with prostitutes don't you?

What is your position (oh the pun) regarding pre-marital sex? Casual sex?
Click to expand...

This whole thread came out of his ass.
 
Risky Thicket said:
You have data to back this up or is this statement coming out of your ass?



Forty times more likely than who? Data source or is this more ass talk?



You could first help by changing your attitude.

Or is it that your attitude is fine and the prostitutes are the ones who need to change? Hmmm?

Tell us, Peter, what is your experience with prostitutes. You DO have personal experiences with prostitutes don't you?

What is your position (oh the pun) regarding pre-marital sex? Casual sex?
Click to expand...

I don't like your tone. If you really want to read up on the statistics, check out what I posted on the prostitution thread.
 
Kal'Stang said:
Only when its done illegally. IE illegal harvesting with out consent.
Click to expand...

Actually it is illegal to sell your organs or anyone else's living or dead, consent or not. The only country where it is legal to buy and sell organs (trade) is Iran.
 
Peter Grimm said:
I don't like your tone. If you really want to read up on the statistics, check out what I posted on the prostitution thread.
Click to expand...

Aren't you going to give us a post number at least. That thread is like 40 pages long, and I don't remember you posting any links in that thread.
 
Peter Grimm said:
I don't like your tone. If you really want to read up on the statistics, check out what I posted on the prostitution thread.
Click to expand...

That's what I thought, Peter. Your "data" and resources are in your ass.
 
Peter Grimm said:
Yes, you've established that you think it's OK for the rich to take advantage of the poor.
Click to expand...
They do that every day of the week in ways you most likely believe are quite legitimate. There's just nothing quite like being able to pay someone 1% of your income to do all your own dirty work, like scrub toilets, mop puke, and remove used gum & popcorn from carpeting. :lol:
 
True freedom is kind of a bitch, so yes, if a person with full mental facilities takes a horrid offer for the tradeoff of monetary gain so be it. The thing about prostitution and the data showing suicides, abuse, etc. are symptoms of a much larger problem than the sex trade. Many of these women were abused as children, neglected, or became addicted to drugs, the diseases come from a lack of health and safety standards, and the further violence comes from having no legal recourse, their only "protection" from an abusive client, or one who stiffs them is a pimp, but because pimps specialize in violence that tends to turn around on the prostitute if he feels she's cheating him in some way. Because that prostitute has no legal recourse, she has two options which are to either seek help and get out of the profession or stay in the cycle.

Prostitution is dangerous, it's against most religious tenets, but it's the oldest profession for a reason and that is because there's always going to be a demand. We can either figure out a way to bring the practice out of the black market and introduce standards or continue on course, it really is that simple.
 
Just saw this post.

You misunderstand me. I don't think for a moment that Sonia finds me anything but repulsive, kind of like making it with her grandfather. She is paid to act like she gives a ****, but of cours she doesn't. It's just acting and entertaining.

My point was that she makes a lot of money doing this. It's no worse than working in a sewage plant and the pay is much higher. She comes over, does her job, and leaves. She's doing fine, probably makes $20K a month and I'm fine, I get to play with a sweet young thang. It harms neither of us and benefits both of us.

Escorting is a great career and while many women can't handle the concept, those that o are sure to get rich. Some will put their income up their nose and some will buy apartment complexes, get married and live happily ever-after.

I seriously doubt that anything she tells me including her name is real. I'm not buying reality. I'm buying sex.



Peter Grimm said:
Originally Posted by Peter Grimm
You're 69 years old, so you should have enough life experience to know, on some level, that you're being deceived.

What do you think Sonia is going to tell you? She's going to tell you what you want to hear, because you're her meal ticket. She's a professional actress? Yeah, around you. Her life is an act.

She's selling you a fantasy. Sonia might not even be her real name.

You believe her act because you want to. You want to believe that a beautiful, young girl really wants to have sex with you, no strings attached.
Click to expand...
 
Don't even think about messing with my hookers. Some of my best friends are.......and you bet I'm emotional and protective of them. They control the ***** supply without which life would be so diminished.




Peter Grimm said:
I don't understand why you and a few other men are getting so emotional. God forbid someone should take away your hookers, right?

A real man can have a rational debate without getting emotional.
Click to expand...
 
specklebang said:
You got that 40 times rate from rapeis.org and if you pose the question on google you'll get 100 different answers. I call BS on this - it's just agenda statistics - just like the claim that 13 is the starting age.

I've met many escorts and they were well over 13. No doubt there are child prostitutes in countries like Thailand but its not the case here. You can always find a horror story but that doesn't make everyone on the same par. For most women, it's profitable and satisfying. I know one girl who is just turning 50 and she owns more San Francisco real estate than Larry Ellison does (maybe). She loves her job - she meets all kinds of interesting men and travels all over the world.

You're confusing young crack whores with Escorts and Courtesans. I consider myself very moral and ethical and I love Escorts and what they do for me.
Click to expand...
Oh, he got those numbers from ONE small study of (53?) street kids in Toronto. Of course, the number of those kids that turned to prostitution was even less than the 50+ total they interviewed. LOL!
 
Peter Grimm said:
This is in direct response to the "should prostitution be legal" thread, and is intended to make you think. It surprises me how many of you answered "yes" to the question, this in spite of all the data which shows prostitutes suffer from a variety of diseases and psychological disorders - including heightened suicide rates - as a direct result of their profession.

Therefore, you are saying it's OK to pay someone to harm themselves as long as both parties are consenting. Fine, but how far are you willing to take this logic?

Here is a hypothetical question, answer it "yes" or "no."



Suppose a sadistic billionaire went around offering poor people a million dollars each to have their eyes removed. The procedure would be carried out by a licensed plastic surgeon, under sedation, in a certified medical facility. Should that be legal? Both parties are consenting.

What if the sadistic billionaire offered one of your parents, or your adult children, and they accepted? Should that be legal?

What if the sadistic billionaire offered someone high on drugs, or a heavily addicted drug addict? What if they offered the elderly, or mentally impaired?

Is it simply a case of two consenting adults involved in a financial transaction, or is there more to it? Is the sadistic billionaire taking advantage of the poor person's problems?
Click to expand...

Yes to all.

There are people who pay money to have body parts cut off. There are people who pay money to die. There are people who do all kinds of things.

Now, re: your main argument here, which is actually about at what point it can be considered coercion, banning people from doing things is not the answer.

The answer is for society to gravitate to a point where few people are desperate enough to be coerced. Because at the end of the day, punishing them for being desperate is not only cruel, but also completely counterproductive. You're just making their situation even worse.

And it's worth noting that in some societies where prostitution is legal and fewer people are desperate, there are some people who prostitute because they genuinely enjoy it. And there are others who just don't mind it as a means to a different career ends, and that's fine too. These people, being more empowered and more legally accepted, take greater measures to protect their health.

Not all prostitutes are coerced, and not all prostitutes are psychologically or physically damaged.

I wonder, do you feel the same way about porn? After all, porn is just prostitution with a video recorder.
 
Peter Grimm said:
You're 69 years old, so you should have enough life experience to know, on some level, that you're being deceived.

What do you think Sonia is going to tell you? She's going to tell you what you want to hear, because you're her meal ticket. She's a professional actress? Yeah, around you. Her life is an act.

She's selling you a fantasy. Sonia might not even be her real name.

You believe her act because you want to. You want to believe that a beautiful, young girl really wants to have sex with you, no strings attached.
Click to expand...
They're not being deceived. They know exactly what they're doing - making good money - and if they look like her they're probably making more money than you ever have in a year.

Of course there are strings attached, I'd guess close to 500 of them for an hour.
 
Peter Grimm said:
Is it OK to sleep with a hooker if she's drunk or under the effects of drugs?
Click to expand...
Is it OK to sleep with a date if she's drunk or under the influence of drugs?
 
Peter Grimm said:
Evidence?
Click to expand...
This article examines violence in legalized brothels in Nevada. Debates over prostitution policies in the United States have long focused on questions of safety and risk. These discourses inevitably invoke the coupling of violence and prostitution, though systematic examinations of the relationship between the two are sparse. This article explores the issue of violence in the Nevada brothel industry. By drawing on interviews with prostitutes, managers, and policy makers, this article examines both prostitutes' perceptions of safety and risk and brothel managers' practices designed to mitigate violence. Discourses relate to three types of violence: interpersonal violence against prostitutes, violence against community order, and sexually transmitted diseases as violence. The authors conclude by arguing that the legalization of prostitution brings a level of public scrutiny, official regulation, and bureaucratization to brothels that decreases the risk of these 3 types of systematic violence.
Click to expand...
Violence and Legalized Brothel Prostitution in Nevada: Examining Safety, Risk, and Prostitution Policy
 
Peter Grimm said:
This is in direct response to the "should prostitution be legal" thread, and is intended to make you think. It surprises me how many of you answered "yes" to the question, this in spite of all the data which shows prostitutes suffer from a variety of diseases and psychological disorders - including heightened suicide rates - as a direct result of their profession.

Therefore, you are saying it's OK to pay someone to harm themselves as long as both parties are consenting. Fine, but how far are you willing to take this logic?

Here is a hypothetical question, answer it "yes" or "no."



Suppose a sadistic billionaire went around offering poor people a million dollars each to have their eyes removed. The procedure would be carried out by a licensed plastic surgeon, under sedation, in a certified medical facility. Should that be legal? Both parties are consenting.

What if the sadistic billionaire offered one of your parents, or your adult children, and they accepted? Should that be legal?

What if the sadistic billionaire offered someone high on drugs, or a heavily addicted drug addict? What if they offered the elderly, or mentally impaired?

Is it simply a case of two consenting adults involved in a financial transaction, or is there more to it? Is the sadistic billionaire taking advantage of the poor person's problems?
Click to expand...

I think your view on prostitution is severely biased. When the conditions are right, consensual sex does not cause or worsen illnesses or mental impairment. When prostitution is legal, it's even easier to control negative side effects such as illnesses, forced prostitution and human trafficking.

I agree that prostitution is ugly and disgusting, but I see no reason why it should be illegal. It's "mankind's oldest business" and always will be, criminalization will never make it go away, and legalization can minimize ugly problems such as violence and force around prostitution, and allows prostitutes to enjoy the same benefits other professions enjoy too, such as health control and work contracts.
 
ChrisL said:
Aren't you going to give us a post number at least. That thread is like 40 pages long, and I don't remember you posting any links in that thread.
Click to expand...

Ask nicely and you shall receive...

The average age of entry into prostitution is 13 years (M.H. Silbert and A.M. Pines, 1982, "Victimization of street prostitutes, Victimology: An International Journal, 7: 122-133) or 14 years (D.Kelly Weisberg, 1985, Children of the Night: A Study of Adolescent Prostitution, Lexington, Mass, Toronto). Most of these 13 or 14 year old girls were recruited or coerced into prostitution. Others were "traditional wives" without job skills who escaped from or were abandoned by abusive husbands and went into prostitution to support themselves and their children. (Denise Gamache and Evelina Giobbe, Prostitution: Oppression Disguised as Liberation, National Coalition against Domestic Violence, 1990)

Estimates of the prevalence of incest among prostitutes range from 65% to 90%. The Council for Prostitution Alternatives, Portland, Oregon Annual Report in 1991 stated that: 85% of prostitute/clients reported history of sexual abuse in childhood; 70% reported incest. The higher percentages (80%-90%) of reports of incest and childhood sexual assaults of prostitutes come from anecdotal reports and from clinicians working with prostitutes (interviews with Nevada psychologists cited by Patricia Murphy, Making the Connections: women, work, and abuse, 1993, Paul M. Deutsch Press, Orlando, Florida; see also Rita Belton, "Prostitution as Traumatic Reenactment," 1992, International Society for Traumatic Stress Annual Meeting, Los Angeles, CA M.H. Silbert and A.M. Pines, 1982, "Victimization of street prostitutes," Victimology: An International Journal, 7: 122-133; C. Bagley and L Young, 1987, "Juvenile Prostitution and child sexual abuse: a controlled study," Canadian Journal of Community Mental Health, Vol 6: 5-26.)

80% of prostitution survivors at the WHISPER Oral History Project reported that their customers showed them pornography to illustrate the kinds of sexual activities in which they wanted to engage. 52% of the women stated that pornography played a significant role in teaching them what was expected of them as prostitutes. 30% reported that their pimps regularly exposed them to pornography in order to indoctrinate them into an acceptance of the practices depicted. (A facilitator's guide to Prostitution: a matter of violence against women, 1990, WHISPER - Women Hurt in Systems of Prostitution Engaged in Revolt Minneapolis, MN)

90% of prostituted women interviewed by WHISPER had pimps while in prostitution (Evelina Giobbe, 1987, WHISPER Oral History Project, Minneapolis, Minnesota).

"About 80% of women in prostitution have been the victim of a rape. It's hard to talk about this because..the experience of prostitution is just like rape. Prostitutes are raped, on the average, eight to ten times per year. They are the most raped class of women in the history of our planet. " (Susan Kay Hunter and K.C. Reed, July, 1990 "Taking the side of bought and sold rape," speech at National Coalition against Sexual Assault, Washington, D.C. ) Other studies report 68% to 70% of women in prostitution being raped (M Silbert, "Compounding factors in the rape of street prostitutes," in A.W. Burgess, ed., Rape and Sexual Assault II, Garland Publishing, 1988; Melissa Farley and Howard Barkan, "Prostitution, Violence, and Posttraumatic Stress Disorder," 1998, Women & Health.)

78% of 55 women who sought help from the Council for Prostitution Alternatives in 1991 reported being raped an average of 16 times a year by pimps, and were raped 33 times a year by johns. (Susan Kay Hunter, Council for Prostitution Alternatives Annual Report, 1991, Portland, Oregon) 85% of prostitutes are raped by pimps. (Council on Prostitution Alternatives, Portland, 1994)

Prostitution is an act of violence against women which is intrinsically traumatizing. In a study of 475 people in prostitution (including women, men, and the transgendered) from five countries (South Africa, Thailand, Turkey, USA, and Zambia):

62% reported having been raped in prostitution. 73% reported having experienced physical assault in prostitution. 72% were currently or formerly homeless. 92% stated that they wanted to escape prostitution immediately. (Melissa Farley, Isin Baral, Merab Kiremire, Ufuk Sezgin, "Prostitution in Five Countries: Violence and Posttraumatic Stress Disorder" (1998) Feminism & Psychology 8 (4): 405-426)

A Canadian Report on Prostitution and Pornography concluded that girls and women in prostitution have a mortality rate 40 times higher than the national average. ( Special Committee on Pornography and Prostitution, 1985, Pornography and Prostitution in Canada 350.) In one study, 75% of women in escort prostitution had attempted suicide. Prostituted women comprised 15% of all completed suicides reported by hospitals. (Letter from Susan Kay Hunter, Council for Prostitution Alternatives, Jan 6, 1993, cited by Phyllis Chesler in "A Woman's Right to Self-Defense: the case of Aileen Carol Wuornos," in Patriarchy: Notes of an Expert Witness, 1994, Common Courage Press, Monroe, Maine.)
 
SmokeAndMirrors said:
Yes to all.

There are people who pay money to have body parts cut off. There are people who pay money to die. There are people who do all kinds of things.

Now, re: your main argument here, which is actually about at what point it can be considered coercion, banning people from doing things is not the answer.

The answer is for society to gravitate to a point where few people are desperate enough to be coerced. Because at the end of the day, punishing them for being desperate is not only cruel, but also completely counterproductive. You're just making their situation even worse.

And it's worth noting that in some societies where prostitution is legal and fewer people are desperate, there are some people who prostitute because they genuinely enjoy it. And there are others who just don't mind it as a means to a different career ends, and that's fine too. These people, being more empowered and more legally accepted, take greater measures to protect their health.

Not all prostitutes are coerced, and not all prostitutes are psychologically or physically damaged.

I wonder, do you feel the same way about porn? After all, porn is just prostitution with a video recorder.
Click to expand...

You made a lot of claims there, can you back them up with studies?
 
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