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How Many Iraqis Died in the Iraq War?[W:496]

HOW MANY IRAQIS DIED?


  • Total voters
    45
  • Poll closed .
It's futile. Instead of worrying about what's happening now and what our current president is doing, complain about a guy who hasn't been the president in 4 years ago, and conveniently leave out the role of the current president has played in that, or to continually excuse him by blaming the "other guy" doesn't make any sense to me. :shrug:

Apparently you don't have dying extreme political positions.
 
No, I am speaking with someone who disagrees with me. And on topic here on this thread.

Meh, I suppose it's for the best that you don't participate in those threads. You'd probably "just blame Bush" anyhow. :roll: That should be the liberal mantra.
 
Could be, but I doubt it. There is certainty that all of them will turn out better, because the laws of human nature dictate that the Middle East can do what humans in every other single region has done. There is no reason to assume that Democracy can and does work for virtually every single culture on Earth, but it simply cannot work for Muslims in the Middle East. It's this fear of instability that kept the Middle East imprisoned under dictators. The same fear locked down Iraq in 1991. And it is the same fear Republicans spew today in regards to the Arab Spring under Obama. Praise instability. Let them rise up. Let them declare their loyalties to tribe. Let them slaughter. Let them reshape their states. Let them do exactly what the rest of the world was allowed to do.

Moderates were not in favor of war with Iraq. That had no consequence. What they watched were Iraqi votes after. Complaining about the carnage as they watched Muslims slaughter Muslims is a culture embarrassment. The Shia rose up on their own before at our bequest. They were slaughtered. Therefore, with or without us in Iraq, those local tribes have murder on the brain. hat's what happens when you spend generations being oppressed by another. It comes out in the end.

It's not a matter of can or not. It's will or not. It is not something we can make happen. In the end, it will up to them and not us.
 
Meh, I suppose it's for the best that you don't participate in those threads. You'd probably "just blame Bush" anyhow. :roll: That should be the liberal mantra.

Bush is only responsible for what he did. Iraq is his.
 
I agree with just about everything here except what I put in bold. I did not vote for Obama and I don't think his foreign policies are so wonderful either. I'm especially bothered about what's happening with Syria right now.

It's not that his Foreign Policies are wonderful. They are just on the right path, which is what Bush started.

Getting out of the way and not rushing to support dictators was the right move. France offered assistance to their Tunisian dictator in December, but criticized us in January for not jumping quickly with them to Libya to get rid of that dictator. When we did get involved we wound up conducting 80 percent of the fly and missile missions while allowing them to pretend that they were in charge. I didn't care for that, but sometimes we have to throw them a bone.

This problem with Syria has way too many hands in the pot. Backing off a bit and giving Russia a chance to fail while European nations rush to send in weapons to support rebels was correct. As far as chemical weapons use, it is an international law that urges international response so Obama's "red line" was more bull **** for the masses. It wasn't his call to make as far as what a "red line" is. The use of chemical weapons demands that the UN take action. The same is true for genocide. And it doesn't matter what we do or don't do to support the rebels. Either way we will be blamed for any killing from our weapons or any killing from our refusal to help.

It was correct to send in the surge into Afghanistan (though he criticized the use of a surge in Iraq) and it was used by the commanders wisely (in both events).

As far as foreign policy goes, he hasn't done bad. Bush made a fiasco of Iraq though I believe in its greater meaning.
 
It did help them in these ways:

1) first and foremost gave them a rallying call that did increase membership. We elevated the status if a relatively small group. And gave them a place to focus on us.

2) gave a training ground that they would not have had otherwise. They learned a lot thy can use later on.

3) gave real propaganda they could use. Even gave credence to prior OBL claims.

Training ground was never an issue. Like I stated, they have Yemen and much of Africa. France is dealing with them in Mali. Pakistan gives them safe haven, though they pretend otherwise by simply ignoring the presence. None of these involved an American military force. They did not and don't lack from a series of options when it comes to training grounds.

All Iraq did was give radicals an excuse to be radical. It's like stirring up you soup. The stuff rises to the top. Those that were created because of a love affair with Saddam Hussein can die along with those who actually thought Osama Bin Laden was a hero in the first place.

And there's no propaganda they can use other than to show how depraved Muslims act without a dictator. The fact that we introduced a Democratic system and gave them the freedom to vote is not something Al-Queda can paint as evil. I don't think that was their plan. Their plan actually backfired. Our response did not erupt the region into Islamic praise and defense. One would have to acknowledge that they were defending Saddam Hussein's regime in order to tie it into Islam. And nobody cared enough to flock to Afghanistan to defend the Tali-Ban. Even other radical organizations distanced themselves from Al-Queda because they knew on 9/12 that they went too far. Chants of "Democracy" is what Osama Bin Laden died hearing. That and his name (apparently).
 
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It's not a matter of can or not. It's will or not. It is not something we can make happen. In the end, it will up to them and not us.

Exactly. That is the whole point of Iraqi votes and our departure. That is the whole point of the Arab Spring. So far they are doing fine without us considering their culture. They just need to address those bad borders. That is what will kill them.
 
Training ground was never an issue. Like I stated, they have Yemen and much of Africa. France is dealing with them in Mali. Pakistan gives them safe haven, though they pretend otherwise by simply ignoring the presence. None of these involved an American military force. They did not and don't lack from a series of options when it comes to training grounds.

All Iraq did was give radicals an excuse to be radical. It's like stirring up you soup. The stuff rises to the top. Those that were created because of a love affair with Saddam Hussein can die along with those who actually thought Osama Bin Laden was a hero in the first place.

And there's no propaganda they can use other than to show how depraved Muslims act without a dictator. The fact that we introduced a Democratic system and gave them the freedom to vote is not something Al-Queda can paint as evil. I don't think that was their plan. Their plan actually backfired. Our response did not erupt the region into Islamic praise and defense. One would have to acknowledge that they were defending Saddam Hussein's regime in order to tie it into Islam. Chants of "Democracy" is what Osama Bin Laden died hearing. That and his name (apparently).

Training ground is an issue regardless of Yeman or any place else. They trained in Iraq fighting us much more direct.

Most those who went to Iraq had never belonged to any terrorist group before, so it's reasonable to conclude that they had success recruiting.

No, they could show our imperialism, not to mention our poor judgement in using torture.
 
Exactly. That is the whole point of Iraqi votes and our departure. That is the whole point of the Arab Spring. So far they are doing fine without us considering their culture. They just need to address those bad borders. That is what will kill them.

It has now been thrust upon them. Risky. No base with which to build on. No leaders who started it. We cants control our boarders, so don't put too much faith there.
 
Training ground is an issue regardless of Yeman or any place else. They trained in Iraq fighting us much more direct.

And most of them died like many are going to die in Syria.

Most those who went to Iraq had never belonged to any terrorist group before, so it's reasonable to conclude that they had success recruiting.

Of course they did. Radicals had a real life cause in their midst. It was their funeral. Radicals are also seeing a developed cause in Syria. They will die there too.

No, they could show our imperialism, not to mention our poor judgement in using torture.

No Islamic radical cares about any of this. They have already been indoctrinated to the idea of the "Great Satan" and have already accepted that their culture's failure is of the West's doing. Anything else we do is dismissed. This is why we can save countless Muslims from slaughter in the Balkans in the 1990s without any sense of thanks from the Islamic civilization. But let a picture of Army soldiers and prisoners at Abu-Ghraib get out and the "Great Satan" reveals himself? No....our enemies were always our enemies. Iraq just gave them a place to go local.
 
And most of them died like many are going to die in Syria.



Of course they did. Radicals had a real life cause in their midst. It was their funeral. Radicals are also seeing a developed cause in Syria. They will die there too.



No Islamic radical cares about any of this. They have already been indoctrinated to the idea of the "Great Satan" and have already accepted that their culture's failure is of the West's doing. Anything else we do is dismissed. This is why we can save countless Muslims from slaughter in the Balkans in the 1990s without any sense of thanks from the Islamic civilization. But let a picture of Army soldiers and prisoners at Abu-Ghraib get out and the "Great Satan" reveals himself? No....our enemies were always our enemies. Iraq just gave them a place to go local.
It's the kind of thing that's people towards radicalism. There is not a set number of radicals. Events play a role creating them.
 
It has now been thrust upon them. Risky. No base with which to build on. No leaders who started it. We cants control our boarders, so don't put too much faith there.

But they didn't have any leadership in the Arab Spring either. This is why the Muslim Brotherhood won so many seats in Egypt. They were the only organization that was organized. We are talking about a civilization that has no real leadership other than religious men and the few radicals/reformers that defied dictators. They have no experience politically to maneuver from outside a dictator's watch so they will stumble. Frankly I don't care if they fail as long as they come to the realization that they are responsible for their own failures and leave us alone. They wanted democracy, now they got it. Now they can prove to the world one way or another. In the end, I live in Colorado. My civilization is successful.
 
But they didn't have any leadership in the Arab Spring either. This is why the Muslim Brotherhood won so many seats in Egypt. They were the only organization that was organized. We are talking about a civilization that has no real leadership other than religious men and the few radicals/reformers that defied dictators. They have no experience politically to maneuver from outside a dictator's watch so they will stumble. Frankly I don't care if they fail as long as they come to the realization that they are responsible for their own failures and leave us alone. They wanted democracy, now they got it. Now they can prove to the world one way or another. In the end, I live in Colorado. My civilization is successful.

Doesn't that mean the Muslim brotherhood had the leadership to be organized? We didn't organize them. Leadership has to come from within and from the outside. If they can't do that, they will eventually fall.
 
It's the kind of thing that's people towards radicalism. There is not a set number of radicals. Events play a role creating them.

Middle Eastern studies show the number of radicals to be anywhere between 1% and 20% depending on the study. It is an impossible number to accurately figure out for obvious reasons. That's anywhere between 12 million and 240 million radicals. They are the sea in which the extremists/terrorists swim.


Sure events play a role, but think about it. What event here in America would set you on a path to murder women and children of another tribe? One would have to exist in an environment of great frustration and oppression to so easily pick up a gun and murder or to strap on a bomb and commit suicide for a deity. The lack of education and justice would have to be great to cause you to simply murder people for the sake of murder in the name of whatever. The removal of a dictator is all it took to call thousands of Muslims from their homes in order to participate in the murder orgy. And they weren't targeting Americans. Only the brave did that. The cowards merely targeted other Muslims. This is an issue that Muslims have created, not Americans.
 
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Doesn't that mean the Muslim brotherhood had the leadership to be organized? We didn't organize them. Leadership has to come from within and from the outside. If they can't do that, they will eventually fall.

Or leaders will develop along the way as they are doing now. Others in Egypt got elected to seats as well. But it doesn't matter. The leaders will be tribal minded and it is this that has to be overcome. I don't think they will be highly successful without addressing their bad borders and what constitutes their nations as we see them today.

I'm out. People kind of ruined the thread.
 
Middle Eastern studies show the number of radicals to be anywhere between 1% and 20% depending on the study. It is an impossible number to accurately figure out for obvious reasons. That's anywhere between 12 million and 240 million radicals. They are sea by which the extremists/terrorists swim.


Sure events play a role, but think about it. What event here in America would set you on a path to murder women and children of another tribe? One would have to exist in an environment of great frustration and oppression to so easily pick up a gun and murder or to strap on a bomb and commit suicide for a deity. The lack of education and justice would have to be great to cause you to simply murder people for the sake of murder in the name of whatever. The removal of a dictator is all it took call thousands of Muslims from their homes to seek people of another tribe to murder. This is an issue that Muslims have created, not Americans.

Don't you remember the civil war? How about the sixties? Hell, some today are trying suggest we should have armed conflict, and we have democracy.

And it was removal of dictator. It was foreigners invading that worked them. It would work us up to if someone invaded Canada.
 
Or leaders will develop along the way as they are doing now. Others in Egypt got elected to seats as well. But it doesn't matter. The leaders will be tribal minded and it is this that has to be overcome. I don't think they will be highly successful without addressing their bad borders and what constitutes their nations as we see them today.

I'm out. People kind of ruined the thread.

Always enjoy our conversations, but they have to over come and not us. Be well.
 
I have no idea. Are you speaking about a cumulative total including both conflicts, plus the "surge," and our current winding down withdrawal period now? No matter, I'd still have absolutely no idea.
 
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I have no idea. Are you speaking about a cumulative total including both conflicts, plus the "surge," and our current winding down withdrawal period now? No matter, I'd still have absolutely no idea.

Likely the least controversial count:


113,185 – 123,900

Iraq Body Count

But the are other estimates:

Iraqi Civilian Count

We maintain a daily count based on news reports. It is not intended to be complete. There is no agency that keeps track of accurate numbers of Iraqis killed. JustForeignPolicy maintains a running estimate based on the Lancet study with the rate of increase derived from the Iraq Body Count.

Casualties in Iraq - Antiwar.com


What we can be sure of is that a lot have died, and more displaced.
 
Something else to consider:

There has been an underlying anti-occupation / anti-government conflict throughout the period, identifiable both by the weapons it uses and its targets, with civilians caught either in the crossfire or targeted for their connection to the government. While deaths generally attributed to sectarian conflict have dropped 10-fold since their height during 2006–2008, deaths linked to anti-government actors have remained roughly steady at around 1,000—3,000 per year throughout, in recent years accounting for around a quarter of deaths (many of these being police).

This anti-government conflict forms a significant part of the violence now entrenched in Iraq, which has shown no diminution in recent years. While military forces were able to bring war to Iraq, it has not departed with them.

The War in Iraq: 10 years and counting :: Iraq Body Count
 
Middle Eastern studies show the number of radicals to be anywhere between 1% and 20% depending on the study. It is an impossible number to accurately figure out for obvious reasons. That's anywhere between 12 million and 240 million radicals. They are the sea in which the extremists/terrorists swim.


Sure events play a role, but think about it. What event here in America would set you on a path to murder women and children of another tribe? One would have to exist in an environment of great frustration and oppression to so easily pick up a gun and murder or to strap on a bomb and commit suicide for a deity. The lack of education and justice would have to be great to cause you to simply murder people for the sake of murder in the name of whatever. The removal of a dictator is all it took to call thousands of Muslims from their homes in order to participate in the murder orgy. And they weren't targeting Americans. Only the brave did that. The cowards merely targeted other Muslims. This is an issue that Muslims have created, not Americans.

Good thing the government is buying up all that ammunition, sounds like we will need even more of it in the future before we see an end to this.
 
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