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How Many Iraqis Died in the Iraq War?[W:496]

HOW MANY IRAQIS DIED?

  • Total voters
    45
  • Poll closed .
DVSentinel said:
Did I say they weren't?

You want absolute concrete proof, but you cannot prove a negative. You cannot prove what didn't happen because something else did. We know they hate us and our allies. We know we disrupted their supply, command and training. We know they expended resources. So we know they had all of that and probably would of been using them against other targets if they had not used them there.

During the whole time of the Iraq war, how many successful attacks were carried out against US civilian targets?

So "Lighten up Francis."
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Oh, we can make reasonable assertions. As there was no killing if this magnatude at the time, it's reasonable to suggested we killed more than would have died. Ever thing war brings tells we should have expected it as well.
 
Geoist said:
Absolutely not. If individuals and private groups want to get involved then that is their prerogative. I feel for the Syrian people just as I do for the Iraqis. I just don't trust the US State to handle it just as I'm sure you don't trust the State with your Social Security and taxes.
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No, I actually agree with you on Syria.
 
AliHajiSheik said:
I can see that you are busy on this thread, so I'll keep it light. You said we were not attacked and appear to at least acknowledge that we were--just not enough to justify the response. Got it. Now you are calling the Iraq War a lie and that some unnamed "our own people" played down Saddam as a threat. Saddam violated the ceasefire and he did block the inspectors, that was all the justification to respond that I feel is required. Did it justify the level of response? That will be debated for years. Did Saddam still have chemical weapons or was he bluffing? Not really clear to me, maybe Saddam's chemical weapons were just used in Syria.
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No, we really were t attacked. It's comical to suggest there little acts were an attack.

Saddam had left over degrading chemical weapons, anything else is fiction. Inspectors were on the ground and felt they could finish their job. The administration paint Iraq as a threat, hyping it beyond reason. We just had enough fever to swallow it. Rumsfeld even got away with saying absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence, which literally means we got nothing.
 
Boo Radley said:
It's a good thing to be sure, but even you use the word almost. And yes, we spread it at gun point. We invaded a country, and told them to vote (even though many thought they were voting for us to leave). You can't change the facts.
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Iraqis endured terrorist threats and acts in the run-up to and during the elections. Despite heavy oppression by the extremists, young and old, man and woman, Shia and Sunni voted.



Iraqi-vote-150x150.jpg
 
Geoist said:
My definition was not wrong. And one could commit an altruistic action and still benefit in some way, it is just not done for outwardly selfish reasons. If you think putting your life on the line every day for the supposed purpose of helping the unfortunate (as you claimed) is not altruistic then really no action is.
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Altruism is an absolute. Until you grasp that, I can't help you about this.
 
Boo Radley said:
Most thinking they were voting for us to leave.


Yep.
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Like you would know. I'm not gonna argue against your personal version of history. I've shown that you are totally wrong about Saddam killing hundreds of thousands just prior to the invasion, I've shown the 50k/year Saddam killed just based on the really big stuff. There's no where left to go.

Go ahead and invent your own history. I'm not gonna argue against your fantasy.
 
ecofarm said:
How can you ignore the intentional starvation of 400k children?



Based on your crystal ball that contradicts all known history and reality.


And you know why, Boo? You did make that claim:



WRONG. Obviously wrong. An elementary school child could gather the sources necessary to see the idiocy of that claim!

How do you explain forgetting what you claimed just hours ago??
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I'm not, but the deaths did not equal 400k. He was not killing at that level.

Besides, our sanctions also played a role.

Yes, we killed much more by invading than we would have otherwise. I don't try to play games. I take the whole of what is said. You should as well. I've been very clear about this. We'd have. More honest debate if you did.
 
ecofarm said:
Altruism is an absolute. Until you grasp that, I can't help you about this.
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Actually I don't believe your definition is possible. The 'true' altruism you describe doesn't exist imo. But then we are getting into philosophical debates which I don't care for.
 
ecofarm said:
Like you would know. I'm not gonna argue against your personal version of history. I've shown that you are totally wrong about Saddam killing hundreds of thousands just prior to the invasion, I've shown the 50k/year Saddam killed just based on the really big stuff. There's no where left to go.

Go ahead and invent your own history. I'm not gonna argue against your fantasy.
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No you have not. But there was a poll back then of Iraqis, and that is what was reported. I linked it several times back then, which is why I remember it. You should have paid attention. :coffeepap
 
Geoist said:
Actually I don't believe your definition is possible. The 'true' altruism you describe doesn't exist imo. But then we are getting into philosophical debates which I don't care for.
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Then we agree. Altruism does not exist. I do what makes me happy. If helping others makes me happy, I'm not altruist. I'm just doing what I like. I believe everyone does what they want. I don't believe in blaming others for our actions. That goes for "but they did it first" and "but I did it for them". Every action must be justified based on its merits in context, but pointing fingers at others is pretty much always BS.
 
Boo Radley said:
No you have not. But there was a poll back then of Iraqis, and that is what was reported. I linked it several times back then, which is why I remember it. You should have paid attention. :coffeepap
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Let me know when you recognize the basic numbers of the Saddam dictatorship, and when they occurred, and grasp their implications. When that rudimentary history is within your understanding, perhaps your crystal ball will not look like a Christmas snow globe of happiness and joy.
 
ecofarm said:
Let me know when you recognize the basic numbers of the Saddam dictatorship, and when they occurred, and grasp their implications. When that rudimentary history is within your understanding, perhaps your crystal ball will not look like a Christmas snow globe of happiness and joy.
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I already know those things. This is not magic, but sound foresight. Anyone thinking could have predicted what happened, and frankly did.
 
Boo Radley said:
I already know those things. This is not magic, but sound foresight. Anyone thinking could have predicted what happened, and frankly did.
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If you are willing to recognize reality, let's review:

80's
Aggressive invasion of Iran, 500k Iraqi killed.
Genocide of the Kurds, 200k dead, chems on towns of 10000 - women and children dead in the streets
Aggressive invasion of Kuwait
Intentional destruction of the Persian Gulf's deep water coral, eco-terrorism

90's
Genocide of the Marsh Arabs, 50k dead in a massive ecologic disaster when Saddam drained the land to kill them
Violation of 17 Chapter 7 UNSCRs
Firing on no-fly zones instituted to prevent further genocide
Institutionalized rape

00's
Fake WMD program perpetuated in order to stave off the Iranian regime
Food proceeds sold to support institutional rape, 400k children (of the opposing faction, of course) starved to death



Based upon that, you think Iraq's future was violence free?
 
ecofarm said:
Food that was provided during food-for-oil was discovered in surrounding countries. It was sufficient to prevent the starvation of 400k children that did starve. Of course, more than that starved, but we can identify 400k live-child worth of baby formula and child cereal that was instead sold for institutional rape.

We might note, sanctions never prevented the import of food or medicine. They have only been described as 'draconian' by the most extreme (and generally ignorant) positions. If you want draconian, check out Saddam's rape palaces, where HS girls were passed down the chain and then murdered - as a matter of state policy.
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Institutional rape. Isn't that what Rummy and company ordered up at Abu Graib? You know, when we shoved cattle prods up people's asses and our contractors raped Iraqi women 4 on 1.

Are you still selling that Saddam's "rape rooms" nonsense? :roll:

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/ballot_box/2004/05/rape_rooms_a_chronology.html
 
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ecofarm said:
Then we agree. Altruism does not exist. I do what makes me happy. If helping others makes me happy, I'm not altruist. I'm just doing what I like. I believe everyone does what they want. I don't believe in blaming others for our actions. That goes for "but they did it first" and "but I did it for them". Every action must be justified based on it's merits in context, and pointing fingers at others is pretty much always BS.
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I think you will find few people who use the word 'altruism' and intend it in its pure form.
 
calamity said:
Institutional rape. Isn;t that what Rummy and company ordered up at Abu Graib?
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No, Abu Graib was a crime and prosecuted as such. Unfortunately, crime occurs in the civilian world as well as in the military. The difference between us and Saddam is that we treated such as a crime and not state policy.
 
Geoist said:
I think you will find few people who use the word 'altruism' and intend it in its pure form.
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The world is full of idiots but words still have meaning.
 
ecofarm said:
If you are willing to recognize reality, let's review:

80's
Aggressive invasion of Iran, 500k Iraqi killed.
Genocide of the Kurds, 200k dead, chems on towns of 10000 - women and children dead in the streets
Aggressive invasion of Kuwait

90's
Genocide of the Marsh Arabs, 50k dead in a massive ecologic disaster when Saddam drained the land to kill them
Violation of 17 Chapter 7 UNSCRs
Firing on no-fly zones instituted to prevent further genocide
Institutionalized rape

00's
Fake WMD program perpetuated in order to stave off the Iranian regime
Food proceeds sold to support institutional rape, 400k children (of the opposing faction, of course) starved to death



Based upon that, you think Iraq's future was violence free?
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Do you even read what I write. If you did, you would know you did not refute me.

Btw, these are the real numbers:


Researcher Richard Garfield estimated that "a minimum of 100,000 and a more likely estimate of 227,000 excess deaths among young children from August 1991 through March 1998" from all causes including sanctions.[7] Other estimates have put the number at 170,000 children.[22][29][30] UNICEF Executive Director Carol Bellamy said that


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanctions_against_Iraq


You can find these numbers in the research. Over a much longer time than right befor invasion. Stay within my actual claim and not your pretend one.
 
Boo Radley said:
Do you even read what I write. If you did, you would know you did not refute me.

Btw, these are the real numbers:


Researcher Richard Garfield estimated that "a minimum of 100,000 and a more likely estimate of 227,000 excess deaths among young children from August 1991 through March 1998" from all causes including sanctions.[7] Other estimates have put the number at 170,000 children.[22][29][30] UNICEF Executive Director Carol Bellamy said that


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanctions_against_Iraq


You can find these numbers in the research. Over a much longer time than right befor invasion. Stay within my actual claim and not your pretend one.
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Arguments about sanctions in the 90's (a debate in and of itself) do not absolve Saddam of directly and intentionally starving 400k children in the years just prior to the invasion.

Stop distracting and accept reality. When you've accepted reality, adjust your crystal ball.
 
davidtaylorjr said:
So would you also say we shouldn't be getting involved in Syria?
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I'll say that. Loud and clear. Another war of choice. There seems to be a little OIL there. We shouldn't have smacked Libya either.
 
ecofarm said:
The world is full of idiots but words still have meaning.
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And I hope you give that reminder to the next person who thanks you for your service. ;) Aren't they implying you did an altruistic thing by serving in the military?
 
ecofarm said:
No, Abu Graib was a crime and prosecuted as such. Unfortunately, crime occurs in the civilian world as well as in the military. The difference between us and Saddam is that we treated such as a crime and not state policy.
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Someone up there drank all the Kool Aide.

Here's the link that I added by the edit coming in after you quoted the post. The only rape rooms were the ones we set up.
Bush, "rape rooms," and the Iraq prison scandal. - Slate Magazine
 
Geoist said:
And I hope you give that reminder to the next person who thanks you for your service. ;) Aren't they implying you did an altruistic thing by serving in the military?
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One need not believe in the fantasy of altruism to appreciate the acts of others.
 
ecofarm said:
Iraqis endured terrorist threats and acts in the run-up to and during the elections. Despite heavy oppression by the extremists, young and old, man and woman, Shia and Sunni voted.



View attachment 67149072
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And now their leader is not the man who got the most votes. More nonsense. You are a veritable fountain of disinformation.
 
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