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Is this blowback from Iran/Contra by Reagan/Bush?

Is this blowback from Iran/Contra by Reagan/Bush?

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DaveFagan

DaveFagan

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[url]http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/06/nicaragua-china-panama-canal[/URL] "Nicaragua has awarded a Chinese company a 100-year concession to build an alternative to the Panama Canal, in a step that looks set to have profound geopolitical ramifications." "Nicaragua's president, Daniel Ortega, said recently that the new channel would be built through the waters of Lake Nicaragua.
The new route will be a higher-capacity alternative to the 99-year-old Panama Canal, which is currently being widened at the cost of $5.2bn.
Last year, the Nicaraguan government noted that the new canal should be able to allow passage for mega-container ships with a dead weight of up to 250,000 tonnes. This is more than double the size of the vessels that will be able to pass through the Panama Canal after its expansion, it said.
According to a bill submitted to congress last year, Nicaragua's canal will be 22 metres deep and 286 km (178 miles) long - bigger than Panama and Suez in all dimensions." Is this the same Daniel Ortega that Reagan/Bush tried to eliminate? USA interests have talked about a canal here for years, but couldn't develop enough trust to make a deal? Will nefarious forces try to sabotage this deal?
 
No. It sounds like a really expensive, labor intensive jobs program geared toward promoting tourism and economic development in the country that will create revenue in the country that would not go offshore like if they let "USA interests" be the ones to build and own the canal. It will further give China an alternate route for mega oil shipments and sending cargo to Cuba so the US cannot flex its muscle and deny China access.
 
Fisher said:
No. It sounds like a really expensive, labor intensive jobs program geared toward promoting tourism and economic development in the country that will create revenue in the country that would not go offshore like if they let "USA interests" be the ones to build and own the canal. It will further give China an alternate route for mega oil shipments and sending cargo to Cuba so the US cannot flex its muscle and deny China access.
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I have an acquaintance that has been associated with a group trying to get a Canal across Nicaragua for twenty years. No joy. If some country had been arming and supporting insurgents/rebels/terrorists in your Country, would you do any business with them?
 
DaveFagan said:
[url]http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/06/nicaragua-china-panama-canal[/URL] "Nicaragua has awarded a Chinese company a 100-year concession to build an alternative to the Panama Canal, in a step that looks set to have profound geopolitical ramifications." "Nicaragua's president, Daniel Ortega, said recently that the new channel would be built through the waters of Lake Nicaragua.
The new route will be a higher-capacity alternative to the 99-year-old Panama Canal, which is currently being widened at the cost of $5.2bn.
Last year, the Nicaraguan government noted that the new canal should be able to allow passage for mega-container ships with a dead weight of up to 250,000 tonnes. This is more than double the size of the vessels that will be able to pass through the Panama Canal after its expansion, it said.
According to a bill submitted to congress last year, Nicaragua's canal will be 22 metres deep and 286 km (178 miles) long - bigger than Panama and Suez in all dimensions." Is this the same Daniel Ortega that Reagan/Bush tried to eliminate? USA interests have talked about a canal here for years, but couldn't develop enough trust to make a deal? Will nefarious forces try to sabotage this deal?
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It sounds like China will be doing all the work for us, because we'll be using it soon enough.
 
Surtr said:
It sounds like China will be doing all the work for us, because we'll be using it soon enough.
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I think it will start a price war. As is, I think the cost of moving a ship through the Panama Canal exceeds $100,000 USD. It will also give strategic control of that shipping to China. The slippery Panamanian banks established by Noriega and the CIA might be affected, or not. Will the CIA send in insurgents from Guatemala and Panama? Does a cat have an ass?
 
DaveFagan said:
[url]http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/06/nicaragua-china-panama-canal[/URL] "Nicaragua has awarded a Chinese company a 100-year concession to build an alternative to the Panama Canal, in a step that looks set to have profound geopolitical ramifications." "Nicaragua's president, Daniel Ortega, said recently that the new channel would be built through the waters of Lake Nicaragua.
The new route will be a higher-capacity alternative to the 99-year-old Panama Canal, which is currently being widened at the cost of $5.2bn.
Last year, the Nicaraguan government noted that the new canal should be able to allow passage for mega-container ships with a dead weight of up to 250,000 tonnes. This is more than double the size of the vessels that will be able to pass through the Panama Canal after its expansion, it said.
According to a bill submitted to congress last year, Nicaragua's canal will be 22 metres deep and 286 km (178 miles) long - bigger than Panama and Suez in all dimensions." Is this the same Daniel Ortega that Reagan/Bush tried to eliminate? USA interests have talked about a canal here for years, but couldn't develop enough trust to make a deal? Will nefarious forces try to sabotage this deal?
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DAve, I have no doubt it's a little payback. At the time of Iran-Contra, we were far more interested in defeating Soviet proxies in our hemisphere than a blow back sometime in the nebulous future. Generally speaking, the threats at your doorstep are a higher priority than those of an unclear future. That's not to say the future shouldn't be a concern, but certainly not to such a degree that you leave yourself hamstrung in the present. In 1987 the Sandanistas were building a 100,000 foot runway on a new airstrip which would only be required for high performance aircraft - and the Nicaraguan's had no such aircraft - the Soviets did, and the evidence at the time suggested the Soviets were funding the airstrip, among other things. The canal is comparatively no threat.
 
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$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
USA
$$$
China
As I am to understand, from what little I know, the Nicaraguan route for a canal is better than Panama.
A century ago, Panama was chosen for some good"? reason.

We had modernize quickly, else we will be speaking Chinese.
"modernize", in this case, means "grow up"..
One of many "grow up" steps is to recognize the Cuban government and stop the silly "war" against them.
 
DaveFagan said:
I have an acquaintance that has been associated with a group trying to get a Canal across Nicaragua for twenty years. No joy. If some country had been arming and supporting insurgents/rebels/terrorists in your Country, would you do any business with them?
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I doubt they would be selling their country out to US investors even if this had not been the case. I think it is a smart move on their part to retain control independent of the history of the parties. China is so well positioned and directed economically going forward, I would not be surprised to see the US no longer considered a leader in the world in my lifetime. I am impressed at how easily China is marginalizing the US and saddened by how the US would rather be petulant "but, but.....They're commies and we have a big military so stick with us" than actually show leadership on its own.
 
sawyerloggingon said:
They may be biting off more than they can chew in a jungle environment. This could be their 25 year bridge to nowhere.
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Maybe, it certainly was too much for the French and Americans who decided to instead go to Panama. I think its not a question of ability to do it, throw enough resources and money at the problem and it will be solved, but depending on the analysis by the Chinese firm it may decide the juice aint worth the squeeze.
 
Fisher said:
I doubt they would be selling their country out to US investors even if this had not been the case. I think it is a smart move on their part to retain control independent of the history of the parties. China is so well positioned and directed economically going forward, I would not be surprised to see the US no longer considered a leader in the world in my lifetime. I am impressed at how easily China is marginalizing the US and saddened by how the US would rather be petulant "but, but.....They're commies and we have a big military so stick with us" than actually show leadership on its own.
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I think it reflects the "money trap" position that the USA has put itself in. Corporate USA is also heavily invested in China and it is another kind of trap altogether. We will be "paying the piper" sooner than we would like to think. China is holding trillions of dollars of our paper and they did not allow themselves to be trapped like the Japanese in the 1980s. We've have and have had piss poor leadership since Jimmy Carter, and maybe even before that. I guess it started when Nixon defaulted on the Bretton Woods agreement.
 
Wiseone said:
Maybe, it certainly was too much for the French and Americans who decided to instead go to Panama. I think its not a question of ability to do it, throw enough resources and money at the problem and it will be solved, but depending on the analysis by the Chinese firm it may decide the juice aint worth the squeeze.
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$100,000 per ship plus a strategic advantage. I think it will be both profitable and a free military strategic option, so even if it didn't profit, it could be considered a good investment for China. Also, they have probably agreed to pay for this with USDollars of which they have trillions to try to turn into something useful. I'm not of the opinion that having trillions of USDollars sitting around is a good thing. Bush dropped the value of the dollar from 120 to 80 and maybe it will drop more meaning that a vault full of USDollars would be losing money. The Chinese are not stupid.
 
DaveFagan said:
I think it will start a price war. As is, I think the cost of moving a ship through the Panama Canal exceeds $100,000 USD. It will also give strategic control of that shipping to China. The slippery Panamanian banks established by Noriega and the CIA might be affected, or not. Will the CIA send in insurgents from Guatemala and Panama? Does a cat have an ass?
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All I know is that Ortega won't be president forever, and the US always manages to get their way by any means, whether those means be necessary or not.
 
Some one is reaching if they think this has anything to do with Reagan and Bush. What did you think they'd hire an American unionized company working under OSHA and the EPA? The Chicoms can do this in 11-12 years, bury the 6,000 dead workers without a lawsuit, and kill all the critters, bushes and trees they want. American lawyers would have made this impossible in 25 years at triple the cost. Don't believe me look at the bay bridge in SF where union workers make $275 AN HOUR.
 
Wiseone said:
If China can do anything, its grand scale engineering projects.
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The more idiotic - the better?

I don't blame Daniel Ortega - he is just another mindless thug raised on a steady diet of the bottled-in-Moscow Kool-Aid (many-many people dig big hole - good), but what about those supposedly oh-so-professional party-bureaucracy Mandarins? Do they really hope to see any return on their investment here?

Looks like a scam - or, rather, like an element of some complicated internal Chinese intrigue we cannot begin to understand.
 
Surtr said:
All I know is that Ortega won't be president forever, and the US always manages to get their way by any means, whether those means be necessary or not.
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No, Ortega won't, but according to the report the concession will last 100 years.
 
sawyerloggingon said:
They may be biting off more than they can chew in a jungle environment. This could be their 25 year bridge to nowhere.
Click to expand...

If the Chinese pay Nicaragua for the rights, I wouldn't bet against them pulling it off and making it pay, even if it means making a billion shovels.
 
Cyrylek said:
The more idiotic - the better?

I don't blame Daniel Ortega - he is just another mindless thug raised on a steady diet of the bottled-in-Moscow Kool-Aid (many-many people dig big hole - good), but what about those supposedly oh-so-professional party-bureaucracy Mandarins? Do they really hope to see any return on their investment here?

Looks like a scam - or, rather, like an element of some complicated internal Chinese intrigue we cannot begin to understand.
Click to expand...

I think they are serious, the idea of a Nicaraguan canal has been around for a hundred years and the bigger the ships get and the more crowded the Panama Canal gets the more it will look profitable. I imagine the project is backed by the Chinese government fisically, typically governments are the only organizations with the kind of money and patience to undergo a project like this which even if they started today may not be up and running for a decade.

Of course they haven't started blasting away mountains yet, but once they are done scouting it out I beleive they'll make that decision.
 
1. There were good reasons why we chose Panama rather than Nicaragua for a canal in the first place (those were the two competing original ideas).

2. China is about to go through some fairly painful internal economic restructuring.

3. The likelihood of this being connected to Iran-Contra is..... very, very, low.
 
DaveFagan said:
[url]http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/06/nicaragua-china-panama-canal[/URL] "Nicaragua has awarded a Chinese company a 100-year concession to build an alternative to the Panama Canal, in a step that looks set to have profound geopolitical ramifications." "Nicaragua's president, Daniel Ortega, said recently that the new channel would be built through the waters of Lake Nicaragua.
The new route will be a higher-capacity alternative to the 99-year-old Panama Canal, which is currently being widened at the cost of $5.2bn.
Last year, the Nicaraguan government noted that the new canal should be able to allow passage for mega-container ships with a dead weight of up to 250,000 tonnes. This is more than double the size of the vessels that will be able to pass through the Panama Canal after its expansion, it said.
According to a bill submitted to congress last year, Nicaragua's canal will be 22 metres deep and 286 km (178 miles) long - bigger than Panama and Suez in all dimensions." Is this the same Daniel Ortega that Reagan/Bush tried to eliminate? USA interests have talked about a canal here for years, but couldn't develop enough trust to make a deal? Will nefarious forces try to sabotage this deal?
Click to expand...

No. This is a rushed development proposal that will likely never come to fruition. However if you could actually get the Chinese to foot a large part of the bill in exchange for a significant stake in the canal you could accomplish a great deal and it would be foolish not to explore the opportunity. Ortega has been somewhat of a pragmatist since he came to power he's been talking with China, with prominent free market venture capitalists, and western governments in an effort to accelerate the inflow of investment and growth.

Conspiracy and intrigue are (as usual) unnecessary explanations.
 
Fisher said:
I am impressed at how easily China is marginalizing the US....
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Considering that the US would be the main beneficiary of added shipping capacities here, it is hardly the question of "marginalization". If this is a real thing, not a publicity stunt and/or a scam, what is the downside? The Chinese are going to undertake an extremely risky and difficult project, and - with little effort of our own - we are going to get another passage from the Gulf of Mexico to the Pacific. The profits of railroads in the West may suffer, but it will be a boon for the American economy at large.

Unfortunately, it does look exactly like a publicity stunt/scam, and my prediction is that nothing will come out of it (except for a couple of billions stolen by the ex-Sandinista officials and ruined ecosystems - in the good tradition of post-Marxist governing)
 
Sherman123 said:
No. This is a rushed development proposal that will likely never come to fruition. However if you could actually get the Chinese to foot a large part of the bill in exchange for a significant stake in the canal you could accomplish a great deal and it would be foolish not to explore the opportunity. Ortega has been somewhat of a pragmatist since he came to power he's been talking with China, with prominent free market venture capitalists, and western governments in an effort to accelerate the inflow of investment and growth.

Conspiracy and intrigue are (as usual) unnecessary explanations.
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The Chinese are "doers" and get things done. They have an OIL deal with Cuba and another with Venezuela and today's supertankers are too wide for the Panama Canal. That alone is enough motivation and financial incentive to finish a canal in Nicaragua. Ortega is never likely to trust USA again and justifiably so. It is a natural "you scratch my back, I'll scratch yours" business opportunity with huge benefits for both sides. I see big interference and roadblocks by Western interests to stop this or gum up the works in my crystal ball. And, I repeat that it uses up some of that surplus of USDollars molding in Chinese vaults.
 
Hey, it's just free market capitalism! 'Merica should love to see the rest of the world create competition.
 
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