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Valedictorian Defies School District and Recites Lord's Prayer [W:618]

Should the school have banned the reading of the prayer by the student?

  • Yes

    Votes: 24 27.3%
  • No

    Votes: 60 68.2%
  • Undecided

    Votes: 4 4.5%

  • Total voters
    88
Separation from church and state, the valedictorian is in the wrong. Simple as that.

You realize there is nothing in the constitution about such things? That was from a letter from Jefferson on a totally different matter. And, schools currently allow student initated prayer, the school itself just can't do so.

Freedom of speech my friend.
 
I don't know why people go soooooooooooooooooo offended by anything religious. I mean.... anything Christian. It was his speech representing himself and his life. Valedictorians shouldn't have to edit and revise their speeches to make sure they don't offend any beliefs of those in the audience. Ridiculous.
 
I strongly support the separation of Church & State, but I also am zealous in my defense of freedom of speech. This was an individual who was selected to give a speech to his peers. I'm not a fan of school reviewed and approved speech, if they did not want this individual giving the graduation speech that is one thing, but once you pick him then you accept that his right to speak freely does not stop when he crosses the school doors.

Also the article does not seem to say that what he did was banned: "Prayer in Pickens County has been highly debated this spring after the school board adopted a new policy that allows non-student led, non-sectarian prayer at meetings."
 
I don't know why people go soooooooooooooooooo offended by anything religious. I mean.... anything Christian. It was his speech representing himself and his life. Valedictorians shouldn't have to edit and revise their speeches to make sure they don't offend any beliefs of those in the audience. Ridiculous.

1st Ammendment rights are often overlooked for Christians. Try to put it the other way around and the liberals throw the book at you.
 
I strongly support the separation of Church & State, but I also am zealous in my defense of freedom of speech. This was an individual who was selected to give a speech to his peers. I'm not a fan of school reviewed and approved speech, if they did not want this individual giving the graduation speech that is one thing, but once you pick him then you accept that his right to speak freely does not stop when he crosses the school doors.

Also the article does not seem to say that what he did was banned: "Prayer in Pickens County has been highly debated this spring after the school board adopted a new policy that allows non-student led, non-sectarian prayer at meetings."

Sorry, I know someone who know the situation first-hand as I do live in SC and they told him he would have to re-write the speech and was not allowed to use the prayer.
 
The point of contention for me was that his speech was unapproved. Freedom of Speech does not allow you to say whatever you want, and organizations are allowed to place self-restricting limitations on what one can say or do as a parameter for membership. If a member acts against these agreed upon rules then they can be punished. So the valedictorian speeches require approval and the speech given was not the one approved, then quite simply he broke the rule and deserves punishment. On the other hand, I personally don't see any good valid reason for denying him the ability to incorporate a prayer into his speech if he so chose to do so.

Personal invocation of God or the use of prayer is not a violation of religious freedom, it is when faith-based principles are directly applied through the legislative process to show preference to one faith over another that violates the separation. People who would be offended by such a speech have thin skin and should realize that the diversity of opinion makes it impossible to avoid topics that you may not agree with. If you don't like listening to prayers then you should avoid being around people who don't mind praying in public.
 
The point of contention for me was that his speech was unapproved. Freedom of Speech does not allow you to say whatever you want, and organizations are allowed to place self-restricting limitations on what one can say or do as a parameter for membership. If a member acts against these agreed upon rules then they can be punished. So the valedictorian speeches require approval and the speech given was not the one approved, then quite simply he broke the rule and deserves punishment. On the other hand, I personally don't see any good valid reason for denying him the ability to incorporate a prayer into his speech if he so chose to do so.

Personal invocation of God or the use of prayer is not a violation of religious freedom, it is when faith-based principles are directly applied through the legislative process to show preference to one faith over another that violates the separation. People who would be offended by such a speech have thin skin and should realize that the diversity of opinion makes it impossible to avoid topics that you may not agree with. If you don't like listening to prayers then you should avoid being around people who don't mind praying in public.

It's not a member situation. This is a state-run school, making a rule about free speech and limiting it. That is a violation of the Constitution.
 
Separation from church and state, the valedictorian is in the wrong. Simple as that.

I understand hating religion is part of being liberal today but why not just say that?

Feigning ignorance is just, well, ignorant.

It's not like the First Amendment is vague.

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

And it very clearly says nothing about holding a fellowship club in a high school basement, wearing religious jewelry, etc.
 
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I don't know why people go soooooooooooooooooo offended by anything religious. I mean.... anything Christian. It was his speech representing himself and his life. Valedictorians shouldn't have to edit and revise their speeches to make sure they don't offend any beliefs of those in the audience. Ridiculous.

If the valedictorian in South Carolina had prayed a Muslim prayer instead, what do you honestly think the reaction would have been?
 
1st Ammendment rights are often overlooked for Christians.

Really? Give us 10 examples, please, compared to other religions and be specific.

Try to put it the other way around and the liberals throw the book at you.

You sound as if you are one of those people who when meeting someone for the first time asks - "Are you a liberal or are you a Christian?" What a load of bollocks!

What exactly is "putting it the other way around" and what do you mean by "throwing the book at you"?
 
It's not a member situation. This is a state-run school, making a rule about free speech and limiting it. That is a violation of the Constitution.

In Frisby v. Schultz, the Supreme Court decided that "the First Amendment permits the government to prohibit offensive speech as intrusive when the 'captive' audience cannot avoid the objectionable speech."
http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/95-815.pdf

As I mentioned though, I personally don't see the need in denying him his prayer. People in general need to grow thicker skin and accept alternative perspectives.
 
Really? Give us 10 examples, please, compared to other religions and be specific.



You sound as if you are one of those people who when meeting someone for the first time asks - "Are you a liberal or are you a Christian?" What a load of bollocks!

What exactly is "putting it the other way around" and what do you mean by "throwing the book at you"?

No I don't ask that, that would be absurd. But when I see Religion being attacked, it makes me mad. Nobody tells the evolutionist or Athiest to shutup, that they can't spread their religion in schools.
 
In Frisby v. Schultz, the Supreme Court decided that "the First Amendment permits the government to prohibit offensive speech as intrusive when the 'captive' audience cannot avoid the objectionable speech."
http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/95-815.pdf

As I mentioned though, I personally don't see the need in denying him his prayer. People in general need to grow thicker skin and accept alternative perspectives.

The captive audience isn't required to be at a Graduation.
 
Now ya see I would say the alternative prospective is not having GAWD drug into everything, especially in the South.

The separation some decry as not in the Constitution is, just not the way some would like. religious freedom doesn't mean a free for all where any public display is fine. It is a Individual Right to practice your Faith, not the ability to practice it for us. (that your rights end at my nose thing) that makes public gatherings a separate issue.

As someone above mentioned just how upset would the Christians here be if a Muslim Student read from the Quran?

One small detail often overlooked when addressing the issues involving schools/districts/rules is minor children in the 'care' of the school system don't have the same 'rights' as adults outside the school system. I do believe even 18 year old high school students do not have the same rights 18 year old college students have.

just a for instance, in College a parent can't receive the 18 year old's transcript unless the student agrees, not so in high School. The Privacy laws are different.
 
If the valedictorian in South Carolina had prayed a Muslim prayer instead, what do you honestly think the reaction would have been?

The same from a different group. The point is that neither a Muslim prayer or a Christian prayer or any other religious prayer is offensive. It's an intelligent, hard-working senior in high school having his/her moment to talk about his/her life, beliefs, influences,...whatever. Don't like it, don't believe it, don't live it? -- so what?
 
Now ya see I would say the alternative prospective is not having GAWD drug into everything, especially in the South.

The separation some decry as not in the Constitution is, just not the way some would like. religious freedom doesn't mean a free for all where any public display is fine. It is a Individual Right to practice your Faith, not the ability to practice it for us. (that your rights end at my nose thing) that makes public gatherings a separate issue.

As someone above mentioned just how upset would the Christians here be if a Muslim Student read from the Quran?

One small detail often overlooked when addressing the issues involving schools/districts/rules is minor children in the 'care' of the school system don't have the same 'rights' as adults outside the school system. I do believe even 18 year old high school students do not have the same rights 18 year old college students have.

just a for instance, in College a parent can't receive the 18 year old's transcript unless the student agrees, not so in high School. The Privacy laws are different.

It's a prayer, in his personal farewell address given in a christian majority state. If a Muslim prayer was said in a Muslim majority state it would be equally appropriate. I don't usually like to speculate but since you and another think it's fun to change the topic and attempt to throw in a curve ball by speculating over what what might have happened if it were a Muslim valedictorian reciting from the Quran then I would say given the fear factor the school is already showing over the question of allowing someone to bring into their own speech elements from their own christian religion then they are already succumbing to the liberal idiocy regarding fear of anything christian. The response (again this is all speculative since it hasn't happened) would have been a large population of liberals applauding the kid for standing up for his faith and then calling anyone who showed any sort of hesitation against the speech a christian bigot. It's usually how it goes.

Personally I wouldn't care either way, I think in a speech given as a farewell address the speaker is bound to throw in some personal elements relevant to themselves. If it's a christian speaking to a christian majority crowd then throwing in a prayer is perfectly acceptable.
 
You realize there is nothing in the constitution about such things? That was from a letter from Jefferson on a totally different matter. And, schools currently allow student initated prayer, the school itself just can't do so.

Freedom of speech my friend.

Freedom of religion my friend. The Valedictorian is imposing their religious views on people of may different religions, that is offensive to say the least especially to the parents of children who came to the ceremony that are of different religions. Not everybody is your religion, not everybody believes in God, not everybody needs to be subjected to your religion. Just because the Valedictorian is a certain religion doesn't mean everybody is, and they should respect the guests by refraining from mentioning religion. Freedom of speech only extends as long as it is not violating any other rights of individuals, and in this case it is.
 
It's a prayer, in his personal farewell address given in a christian majority state. If a Muslim prayer was said in a Muslim majority state it would be equally appropriate. I don't usually like to speculate but since you and another think it's fun to change the topic and attempt to throw in a curve ball by speculating over what what might have happened if it were a Muslim valedictorian reciting from the Quran then I would say given the fear factor the school is already showing over the question of allowing someone to bring into their own speech elements from their own christian religion then they are already succumbing to the liberal idiocy regarding fear of anything christian. The response (again this is all speculative since it hasn't happened) would have been a large population of liberals applauding the kid for standing up for his faith and then calling anyone who showed any sort of hesitation against the speech a christian bigot. It's usually how it goes.

Personally I wouldn't care either way, I think in a speech given as a farewell address the speaker is bound to throw in some personal elements relevant to themselves. If it's a christian speaking to a christian majority crowd then throwing in a prayer is perfectly acceptable.

Ahhh the majority rules thing, sort of like Jim Crow laws or interracial marriage laws. Unfortunately for that line of reason the Constitution doesn't say one thing for one majority and another for a different crowd. there were plenty of other times for him to pray for his fellow students, he could have simply done the moment of silence... but no he wanted to say the word which is preaching. I know the Christians don't want to see it that way but it is.

Don't confuse wanting our rights to be recognized with fearing Christianity. Christians just love to be the martyrs in these discussions. The Muslim thing is to smoke out the very confused rationalizations Christians go through to justify their insistence on religion in all events but not any other POV.

There are plenty of personal parts a student can throw in without praying. Most students pray BEFORE they graduate.
 
Freedom of religion my friend. The Valedictorian is imposing their religious views on people of may different religions, that is offensive to say the least especially to the parents of children who came to the ceremony that are of different religions. Not everybody is your religion, not everybody believes in God, not everybody needs to be subjected to your religion. Just because the Valedictorian is a certain religion doesn't mean everybody is, and they should respect the guests by refraining from mentioning religion. Freedom of speech only extends as long as it is not violating any other rights of individuals, and in this case it is.

Exactly, good point.

Just ****ing pray after the speech, or before the speech, or during the speech in your head.

Why is there a need for it to be audible???

annoying
 
As long as their is no discriminatory requirement to be Valedictorian and the Valedictorian gets to make a speech, then I don't have an objection to what this student did for his speech. Same for a Muslim student or whatever. They earned it.

I would also be OK if the school wanted to limit the speech to 5 minutes and cutting the mic at the 5 min mark.
 
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