Valedictorian Defies School District and Recites Lord's Prayer [W:618]

clownboy said:

Which then comports with Lee making it the student's protected speech and not the school's barred speech.

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Did you even read the case? It states that the school has the authority to censor student speech.

The most interesting thing, to me, is that it was the student's defiance that makes it permissible. The school is not allowed to endorse prayer. They have to say no. But the student is free to disregard that and say whatever he wants. He can be as religious as he likes. The school cannot be. I wouldn't support punishing him at all, because it is his right to speak on religious matters if he likes. I think it is callous of him to do so, since he is speaking to a class that is graduating from high school, and not in a church. Not all of his classmates share his religion and by praying he is only speaking to the part of his class that does. But free speech allows a person to demonstrate the shallowness of their character. He did so. It's his right to do so. The school cannot endorse the positions he was espousing, however.

clownboy said:

My goodness Chris, the link has been posted now three times and is indeed included in the post above. Use your eyes.

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Clownboy, you said you are a teacher. Have you never disciplined a child over offensive speech?

clownboy said:

Unfortunately you cherry picked the wrong part of the decision. The quoted portion ONLY applies to when the school has a hand in the speech. Otherwise, it's the STUDENT's view that is expressed, and that is protected.

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Here is the conclusion, from your link:

Conclusion

The Supreme Court’s decisions have left open several issues regarding religious expression at graduation events that lower courts have addressed in a variety of ways. Principals and school boards will look to lower court opinions in their jurisdictions (if any) that deal with these issues for guidance. Thus, specific restrictions on free speech may vary between jurisdictions. At the most basic level, however, schools may not restrict students’ speech based on the students’ religious viewpoint. Under current law in some jurisdictions, schools may prohibit a valedictorian from using sectarian or proselytizing language during a graduation speech.

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The Lord's Prayer would fall under proselytizing language I would think.

Geoist said:

Clownboy, you said you are a teacher. Have you never disciplined a child over offensive speech?

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Well, don't you think he would be interfering with that child's free speech? :lol: Children should be able to say whatever they want, whenever they want with no repercussions.

White went on to say educators do not infringe on First Amendment rights when exercising control over student speech in school-sponsored activities "so long as their actions are reasonably related to legitimate pedagogical concerns."
Hazelwood v. Kuhlmeier - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Zyphlin said:

People having an issue with it, but not claiming its "unconstitutional".

I think there's a big difference between "It's going to offend the crowd, don't do it" and claiming "That's unconstutional! You can't do it".

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The crowd cheered, though.

Paschendale said:

The most interesting thing, to me, is that it was the student's defiance that makes it permissible. The school is not allowed to endorse prayer. They have to say no. But the student is free to disregard that and say whatever he wants. He can be as religious as he likes. The school cannot be. I wouldn't support punishing him at all, because it is his right to speak on religious matters if he likes. I think it is callous of him to do so, since he is speaking to a class that is graduating from high school, and not in a church. Not all of his classmates share his religion and by praying he is only speaking to the part of his class that does. But free speech allows a person to demonstrate the shallowness of their character. He did so. It's his right to do so. The school cannot endorse the positions he was espousing, however.

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:applaud

Geoist said:

Clownboy, you said you are a teacher. Have you never disciplined a child over offensive speech?

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I was a teacher and yes. Apples and oranges. The power there rests in a whole 'nother SCOTUS decision. See Hazelwood above.

ChrisL said:

Well, don't you think he would be interfering with that child's free speech? :lol: Children should be able to say whatever they want, whenever they want with no repercussions.

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Once again, different venue, different SCOTUS decision altogether. See Hazelwood above.

Paschendale said:

The most interesting thing, to me, is that it was the student's defiance that makes it permissible. The school is not allowed to endorse prayer. They have to say no. But the student is free to disregard that and say whatever he wants. He can be as religious as he likes. The school cannot be. I wouldn't support punishing him at all, because it is his right to speak on religious matters if he likes. I think it is callous of him to do so, since he is speaking to a class that is graduating from high school, and not in a church. Not all of his classmates share his religion and by praying he is only speaking to the part of his class that does. But free speech allows a person to demonstrate the shallowness of their character. He did so. It's his right to do so. The school cannot endorse the positions he was espousing, however.

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What he doesn't have the "right" to do is to change his speech at the last minute without getting approval, especially when inserting religious content.

Hmm. It's interesting. You would think a boy with such intelligence would be able to figure these things out for himself.

Jerry said:

The crowd cheered, though.

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Good grief! :roll: That is SO irrelevant.

ChrisL said:

What he doesn't have the "right" to do is to change his speech at the last minute without getting approval, especially when inserting religious content.

Hmm. It's interesting. You would think a boy with such intelligence would be able to figure these things out for himself.

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He absolutely had the right to change his speech because the school had no right to forbid religious expression. The SCOTUS is on his side.

Jack Hays said:

He absolutely had the right to change his speech because the school had no right to forbid religious expression. The SCOTUS is on his side.

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Nope, you're just as wrong as wrong can be.

ChrisL said:

Nope, you're just as wrong as wrong can be.

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And why would you believe that?

Jack Hays said:

And why would you believe that?

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The school can mandate that speeches be subject to preapproval, just as ANY speech at any venue.

Jack Hays said:

He absolutely had the right to change his speech because the school had no right to forbid religious expression. The SCOTUS is on his side.

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For you Mr. Jack Hays, since you apparently missed it.

The Supreme Court’s decisions have left open several issues regarding religious expression at graduation events that lower courts have addressed in a variety of ways. Principals and school boards will look to lower court opinions in their jurisdictions (if any) that deal with these issues for guidance. Thus, specific restrictions on free speech may vary between jurisdictions. At the most basic level, however, schools may not restrict students’ speech based on the students’ religious viewpoint. Under current law in some jurisdictions, schools may prohibit a valedictorian from using sectarian or proselytizing language during a graduation speech.

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ChrisL said:

What he doesn't have the "right" to do is to change his speech at the last minute without getting approval, especially when inserting religious content.

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Let us know how your lawsuit turns out.

Jerry said:

Let us know how your lawsuit turns out.

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Nothing of relevance to add? Not surprising Jerry.

I wonder how people would feel if the kid wanted to recite the Devil's Prayer? Maybe he's a satanist?

ChrisL said:

What he doesn't have the "right" to do is to change his speech at the last minute without getting approval, especially when inserting religious content.

Hmm. It's interesting. You would think a boy with such intelligence would be able to figure these things out for himself.

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He should have that right. But I am going to change my position a little, after more consideration. He probably ought to be punished. He did break the rules and the law is quite clear that schools can control the speech of students to a degree. This is within that degree. If you don't enforce a rule, then it may as well not exist, and the rule does need to be there for the school not to be sanctioning religion. The trouble here is conflicting rights. It's a difficult conflict for me. I really don't approve of censorship. It violates the first amendment. But on the other hand, if the school endorses or allows religious speech to a captive audience, then it is propping up religion in violation of that same first amendment. It's an ugly catch-22 and I really just wish that religious people wouldn't do this kind of crap and put everyone in this position. If they want to mouth off about their faith, they should have the decency not to turn it into a power play like this. I suppose that really is what this was, a power play. And religion is not allowed to have power in this country.

I guess you're right. **** that kid.

Jerry said:

The crowd cheered, though.

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As above. This boy demonstrated his desire to exercise power over the crowd with his religion. Those who agreed with his desire cheered. The minority who suddenly found themselves surrounded by people who were demonstrating that they wanted power over them were not cheering and were likely very uncomfortable. I have found myself in that situation many times. I'm sure that you, as a comfortable member of the majority, have not.

ChrisL said:

I wonder how people would feel if the kid wanted to recite the Devil's Prayer? Maybe he's a satanist?

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I'm sure the same people who are defending the kid would be very offended and would condemn him.

ChrisL said:

Good grief! :roll: That is SO irrelevant.

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That no-one was offended debases any worry that it would offend.

The only people who get offended at these things are paid 'victims' set up by Libetal law firms to try and bypass the legislature to change a law. No real person of sound mind and body is actualy ofended, only frauds and th e mentaly challenged.

ChrisL said:

Nothing of relevance to add? Not surprising Jerry.

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So you admit that no one was or even could have been harmed by this, unlike yelling 'fire' in a theater.

Jerry said:

So you admit that no one was or even could have been harmed by this, unlike yelling 'fire' in a theater.

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It's proselytizing at a public school-sponsored event. I think that most of us want to keep these kinds of theatrics out of the education setting.

Jerry said:

That no-one was offended debases any worry that it would offend.

The only people who get offended at these things are paid 'victims' set up by Libetal law firms to try and bypass the legislature to change a law. No real person of sound mind and body is actualy ofended, only frauds and th e mentaly challenged.

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Lol! Just because some of crowd cheered does in no way mean no one was offended. It's in the news. Must have bothered somebody somewhere. Stop making me LOL.