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Valedictorian Defies School District and Recites Lord's Prayer [W:618]

Should the school have banned the reading of the prayer by the student?

  • Yes

    Votes: 24 27.3%

  • No

    Votes: 60 68.2%

  • Undecided

    Votes: 4 4.5%
  • Total voters
    88
Geoist said:
Its a free country sure. But is anyone free to use the school podium to give a speech? No. This is not a free speech issue. The child was dishonest about the contents of his speech and should not be commended as some 'brave hero.'
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I'm not calling him a brave hero. What I'm saying is that this isn't as big a deal as people seem to want to make it. The school will take no action and we'll all move on. I don't think he's brave or anything like that, it doesn't take bravery to come out as a Christian in this country. However, this is also not a deal. Some smarmy kid thinking he's sticking it to the man by reciting a prayer and a bunch of circus seals in the audience clapping along. That's it. I don't have a problem with this so long as equal treatment is given to all opinions.

It's nothing to get excited about. Now the gross spying and databasing our government is doing against us, THAT'S something to get all riled up over.
 
davidtaylorjr said:
And how does the Constitution limit this speech? It doesn't. The courts limit free speech.
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Well, we can have either unlimited free speech and unlimited tolerance....or a balance of both...probably impossible, particularly today.
And we should lead our lives based on much more than the Constitution...
 
earthworm said:
Well, we can have either unlimited free speech and unlimited tolerance....or a balance of both...probably impossible, particularly today.
And we should lead our lives based on much more than the Constitution...
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First of all you edited my quote. Second, we should live our freedoms on more than the Constitution? It is the basis for our freedoms. If you don't like it, change it, through ammendments.
 
davidtaylorjr said:
You do know that Constitutionally there is no such thing as Separation of Church and State right?
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please tell me what you are trying to say here because separation of church and state is in fact established by the constitution.

also the school does have the right to limit, monitor, censor and not allow speech at school and school functions
 
AGENT J said:
please tell me what you are trying to say here because separation of church and state is in fact established by the constitution.

also the school does have the right to limit, monitor, censor and not allow speech at school and school functions
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Separation of Church and State was in a letter from Jefferson, not the Constution. Fact.
 
davidtaylorjr said:
Separation of Church and State was in a letter from Jefferson, not the Constution. Fact.
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yes that phrase was in a letter but thats not what we are talking about
separation from church and state is indeed established in the constitution and has been ruled that way, you claimed its not and you are wrong. FACT

you are young arent you dave

also the school does have the right to limit, monitor, censor and not allow speech at school and school functions fact
 
AGENT J said:
yes that phrase was in a letter but thats not what we are talking about
separation from church and state is indeed established in the constitution and has been ruled that way, you claimed its not and you are wrong. FACT

you are young arent you dave

also the school does have the right to limit, monitor, censor and not allow speech at school and school functions fact
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Once again the courts got it wrong. Do you also believe it is right that they say churches can't endorse candidates?
 
Risky Thicket said:
If the valedictorian in South Carolina had prayed a Muslim prayer instead, what do you honestly think the reaction would have been?
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People having an issue with it, but not claiming its "unconstitutional".

I think there's a big difference between "It's going to offend the crowd, don't do it" and claiming "That's unconstutional! You can't do it".
 
Zyphlin said:
People having an issue with it, but not claiming its "unconstitutional".

I think there's a big difference between "It's going to offend the crowd, don't do it" and claiming "That's unconstutional! You can't do it".
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Good point.
 
iacardsfan said:
Freedom of religion my friend. The Valedictorian is imposing their religious views on people of may different religions,
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HEARING another person pray or speak about religion is "imposing their religious views" upon people?
 
davidtaylorjr said:
1.)Once again the courts got it wrong.
2.)Do you also believe it is right that they say churches can't endorse candidates?
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ooooh the courts got it wrong according to who? you? LMAO

weird that you mention it was in a letter which was expressing an understanding of the intent and function of the establishment clause and free exercise clause of the 1st amendment by a founding father but yet you imply the courts got it wrong. Thats illogical.

But regardless of your illogical opinion the fact remains that separation of church and state is established by the constitution. :shrug:

your opinion wont change this

2.) what does this have to do with the topic at hand? thats right nothing just a deflection


facts
separation from church and state is indeed established in the constitution and has been ruled that way.
also the school does have the right to limit, monitor, censor and not allow speech at school and school functions.
 
davidtaylorjr said:
Separation of Church and State was in a letter from Jefferson, not the Constution. Fact.
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Actually it is. While the words do not appear in the Constitution, have you considered what the opposite of separation is? It would be the establishment of a State Religion, which is prohibited in the First Amendment.
 
AGENT J said:
ooooh the courts got it wrong according to who? you? LMAO

weird that you mention it was in a letter which was expressing an understanding of the intent and function of the establishment clause and free exercise clause of the 1st amendment by a founding father but yet you imply the courts got it wrong. Thats illogical.

But regardless of your illogical opinion the fact remains that separation of church and state is established by the constitution. :shrug:

your opinion wont change this

2.) what does this have to do with the topic at hand? thats right nothing just a deflection


facts
separation from church and state is indeed established in the constitution and has been ruled that way.
also the school does have the right to limit, monitor, censor and not allow speech at school and school functions.
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It's not off-topic, it's is freedom of speech being squelched. By the way, a valedictorian has nothing to do with Separation of Church and State or the Establishment Clause.
 
rocket88 said:
Actually it is. While the words do not appear in the Constitution, have you considered what the opposite of separation is? It would be the establishment of a State Religion, which is prohibited in the First Amendment.
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Yes, but what people use Separation of Church and state for goes well beyond that. It's abused.
 
rocket88 said:
Actually it is. While the words do not appear in the Constitution, have you considered what the opposite of separation is? It would be the establishment of a State Religion, which is prohibited in the First Amendment.
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Well, technically no...

The opposite of "Seperation of Church and State" in the way so many interprit it...IE that ANYTHING religious can't interact with ANYTHING government....would be "Comingling of Church and State". It would be having muslim and buddhist and Christian and Jewish events and prayers and statements being able to be in various parts of government.

Allowing the schools to have a "Islamic Club", a "Catholic Club", a "Mormon Club", and a "Buddhist Club" and giving them time during the day where they could have a club activity of prayer or scripture study or meditation time would not be "establishing a state religion" becuase there is no specific Religion the state is singularly endorsing, enforcing upon people, mandating or implimenting through law, etc. But it would violate the notion of "Seperation of Church and State" that so many people have because it'd be letting people use state property/time to engage in their personal religious activities.
 
Zyphlin said:
Well, technically no...

The opposite of "Seperation of Church and State" in the way so many interprit it...IE that ANYTHING religious can't interact with ANYTHING government....would be "Comingling of Church and State". It would be having muslim and buddhist and Christian and Jewish events and prayers and statements being able to be in various parts of government.

Allowing the schools to have a "Islamic Club", a "Catholic Club", a "Mormon Club", and a "Buddhist Club" and giving them time during the day where they could have a club activity of prayer or scripture study or meditation time would not be "establishing a state religion" becuase there is no specific Religion the state is singularly endorsing, enforcing upon people, mandating or implimenting through law, etc. But it would violate the notion of "Seperation of Church and State" that so many people have because it'd be letting people use state property/time to engage in their personal religious activities.
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Those notions of separation are wrong.

If the school said that he had to insert the prayer, or if all those in attendance were forced to say it, that would be wrong.
 
davidtaylorjr said:
Separation of Church and State was in a letter from Jefferson, not the Constution. Fact.
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LOL....have you read the Constitution? The concept of separating Church/State is clearly there for those who wish to educate themselves.
 
davidtaylorjr said:
1.)It's not off-topic, it's is freedom of speech being squelched. 2.)By the way, a valedictorian has nothing to do with Separation of Church and State or the Establishment Clause.
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1.) which has nothing to do with whats going on here nor does it change the facts


separation from church and state is indeed established in the constitution and has been ruled that way.
also the school does have the right to limit, monitor, censor and not allow speech at school and school functions.

2.)and by the way, your last statement ( i bolded it) is just your opinion at best, if this went to court that may very well come up and be exactly why they rule in favor of the school just like it has in the past, would you like court cases/links?
 
AGENT J said:
you do understand you post had ZERO impact on what he said right, his post is still accurate and you changed nothing.
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Is your only goal here to mock others? If so, I don't have anything futher to discuss with you.
 
Hatuey said:
40+ pages on some hillbilly in SC doing a prayer. Call me when SC becomes an important state in the union. This is a state that didn't even acknowledge women as voters until the 60s. Give them time. Eventually, they'll join the rest of the world.
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SC is important. I seriously think that every country and every person needs some comedy, and SC always provides that.
 
Hatuey said:
40+ pages on some hillbilly in SC doing a prayer. Call me when SC becomes an important state in the union. This is a state that didn't even acknowledge women as voters until the 60s. Give them time. Eventually, they'll join the rest of the world.
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And so what determines the importance of a state? Your statement is absurd and uncalled for.
 
Rainman05 said:
He isn't there representing the public institution, is he? He is there representing himself and probably his classmates.
Yes, he is underneath their authority but he isn't part of the system. It's like, you are under the authority of the police, because you have to do what the police tells you, but you are a private citizen.

So yeah. He can say whatever you want and there is no fault in his speech from this POV.
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As an invited speaker, yes he is to an extent.
 
davidtaylorjr said:
You do know that Constitutionally there is no such thing as Separation of Church and State right?
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You do know that legally there is, right? While that phrase is not in the constitution, it is widely agreed that the first amendment does require a level of separation.
 
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