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Valedictorian Defies School District and Recites Lord's Prayer [W:618]

Should the school have banned the reading of the prayer by the student?

  • Yes

    Votes: 24 27.3%

  • No

    Votes: 60 68.2%

  • Undecided

    Votes: 4 4.5%
  • Total voters
    88
Tucker Case said:
The school has control over the event, thus it is a school event. Just because it is voluntary does not change that.

And if people are paying to have that celebration, they are not paying to listen to some self-righteous douchebag push his religious views upon all in attendance. I guarantee you that NOBODY was in attendance to pray or worship. None of them. Not even the proselyting valedictorian.
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It seems the valedictorian was and from the cheers so were a good portion of the audience. By that same note you could say the audience wasn't there to hear whatever twaddle is coming from the commencement speakers either.
 
Geoist said:
Why do you assume I think something should be done to him? Do I think what he did was right? No. Do I think he should be punished/prosecuted? Of course not. The world is not as black and white as some of you conservatives like to make it out to be. ;)
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What? He knowingly displayed his Christian beliefs at a school function. Imagine the oppression and severe mental strain suffered by the folks in the audience. Surely that warrants something?
 
The school has every right to moderate the content of the speeches given at their venue, despite pervasive, goofball interpretations of the First Amendment. To intentionally subvert the process set about by the school demonstrates both a lack of maturity and respect.
 
clownboy said:
It seems the valedictorian was and from the cheers so were a good portion of the audience.
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No, he was there to celebrate his graduation. He decided to take that opportunity to act like a selfish douche.

Who cares that some people cheered him on?

If he said "**** Obama" he probably would have gotten cheers as well, that doesn't make it appropriate nor does it prevent his actions from being those of a selfish douche.
 
a351 said:
The school has every right to moderate the content of the speeches given at their venue, despite pervasive, goofball interpretations of the First Amendment. To intentionally subvert the process set about by the school demonstrates both a lack of maturity and respect.
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I've been to a lot of graduations and never one that didn't contain at least an element of that last. :mrgreen:
 
clownboy said:
I've been to a lot of graduations and never one that didn't contain at least an element of that last. :mrgreen:
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Don't doubt it. One would expect slightly more from a Valedictorian though.
 
Tucker Case said:
No, he was there to celebrate his graduation. He decided to take that opportunity to act like a selfish douche.

Who cares that some people cheered him on?

If he said "**** Obama" he probably would have gotten cheers as well, that doesn't make it appropriate nor does it prevent his actions from being those of a selfish douche.
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There is always someone in the audience who objects to or just doesn't like something a commencement speaker says. Most of us take it in stride precisely because we are there to see someone we care about graduate.
 
Josie said:
The same from a different group. The point is that neither a Muslim prayer or a Christian prayer or any other religious prayer is offensive.
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Your are commended for your acceptance of the beliefs of others. Many people are unfortunately not as tolerant as you are, especially in the South. If most of the prayers at public school functions in South Carolina were non-Christian prayers I suspect the local public would be up in arms, and often. I think you know that to be true as well.

The truth is it is not up to you nor to me to decide what religious prayers are or are not offensive for people of various religions. We don't really know. I have a few friends who are Sikhs and I know a little about their faith, but can I tell you what they might find offensive in an impromptu Christian public school commencement address? I cannot.

I will tell you that at one of my children's public school graduation the commencement speaker, who many of us discovered after the fact, was a local evangelical minister. He began congratulating all the students and their parents and in the middle of his address he began talking about drinking and partying and sin and how it would offend God for those graduating to drink and party be tempted "of the flesh". At that point, I was uncomfortable as I could be. There wasn't much anyone could do about it at that point. But the preacher wasn't finished. He began talking about alcoholism being a sin and how it began with one drink and how alcoholics would be damned to eternal hell. He said, it would anger God for students to use the occasion to begin a life of alcoholism. With a few more very specific references to God and sin and the students he finished with a prayer to save everyone from temptation.

Josie, I am here to tell you no one moved. The place was silent. Everyone was stunned. I was pissed beyond words. My wife had her fingers digging into my arm to keep me seated. Once the entire affair was finished a mob of angry parents rushed the preacher, the principal and anyone else connected with the school. People were shocked and very angry, even my very Southern Baptist mother-in-law.

We felt used, we felt abused, we were offended. So many parents were offended that a letter of apology went out from the principal to the parents of the students who graduated.

I'm not exaggerating, I'm shooting your straight. It is fact. I was there with my children and extended family.


It's an intelligent, hard-working senior in high school having his/her moment to talk about his/her life, beliefs, influences,...whatever. Don't like it, don't believe it, don't live it? -- so what?
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And if the hard-working senior talked about how being a Wiccan had changed his life and allowed him to realize his full potential and finishing that he asked everyone to join him in a Wiccan prayer you'd be all for that and most supportive?
 
DiAnna said:
I'd like to think I'm misinterpreting this comment, since it seems to imply that I would not have the same objections to religious utterances at a school graduation if the religion was anything other than Christian because you surely know me better than that. I do not believe that school functions should include religion, any religion.
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I do know you better than that, Di. Sincere apologies. My sarcasm had the better of me. :)
 
Monserrat said:
Umm. No it's absolutely not like the Jim Crow laws they discriminated against other people and led to inferior conditions for other people who most likely were actually the majority population in many areas (there were and still are large concentrations of african americans in the southern US that sometimes outnumber 'white' populations).

Making a culturally appropriate speech is not discrimination now is it nor does it lead to inferior conditions for a large group of people :moody

The point here is that his prayer hurt no one, it's not against the laws of this nation to simply say a prayer out loud, the school was wrong for telling him not to do it. So good for him for standing against that overly sensitive political bull**** and doing it anyways.
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Well I can see how you would want to peel the onion and first claim majority and thats ok but then majority and that's not ok. The severity isn't the issue, the over arching philosophy is. In most of the South blacks are a minority, they are a majority only in areas they have been more or less segregated into. I remember from my youth talk of the 'darkie' towns. Here in Oklahoma some towns are still majority black as they were set asides for former slaves to live in. (separate but unequal)

You want to make a pretend 'liberal' to argue against, i would be as much against a student using the Quran as this student and a prayer. Your 'reason' for having a Christian Prayer but balking at a Muslim reading is flawed, we either have religious freedom for all or what is it? If this honor student was Indian and wanted to say a few words in Hindu or a Vietnamese kid and say a short Buddhist prayer then that should be as acceptable to you as a Christian one- dominant culture be damned! :doh

A few years ago a culturally appropriate speech against race mixing was 'ok' by the majority but not 'by law'. That the young person went ahead again isn't the issue, I've been of the mind if he knows what he is doing is not approved but does it anyway fine, but he owns whatever the consequence may or maynot be.

it doesn't seem brave to be but more 'martyr' crap.
 
Risky Thicket said:
And if the hard-working senior talked about how being a Wiccan had changed his life and allowed him to realize his full potential and finishing that he asked everyone to join him in a Wiccan prayer you'd be all for that and most supportive?
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I wouldn't join in on the prayer. Other than that - who cares?
 
no state sanction of the prayer

no compulsory attendance

nothing preventing the audience from leaving

would not be surprised if this was the kid's first act of defiance against authority (tho he likely justified it as being acceptable in the eyes of the highest authority, for whom the prayer was intended)

a whole lot of nothing here

if it is determined that the school cooperated and winked at his invocation, then bust the participating school officials

otherwise, nothing to see here, folks

and that will be true also if the next such event features the valedictorian espousing the belief of wicca, voodoo, santeria or some other pagan belief ... then watch the 'school prayer is ok' crowd piss and moan about it
 
Geoist said:
The point is the student did not have a RIGHT to say whatever he wanted. If a racist speech was submitted you can bet the school would not have approved nor allowed him to take the stage. Would such an action violate his 1st Amendment rights? Absolutely not.
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Why not? The student has free speech just like everyone else. They had as much of a RIGHT to say what they said as a racist has to say what they say. You're confusing what you WISH they'd say with what they have a RIGHT to say.

I dont think any school needs to do such a thing. Every once in a while you will get a dishonest valedictorian, oh well. But to pass this off as a 1st Amendment issue is silly.
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It is a 1st Amendment issue. The valedictorian did not violate it. They had a right to say what they said, whether you or anyone else likes it or not.
 
Geoist said:
Then a Muslim teacher should be able to preach to his/her students that Allah is the one true God?
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Nope, a teacher, while doing their job, is speaking for the state and are therefore not able to profess religious beliefs or promote one religion above another. The valedictorian in this case does not work for the school. This seems to be where you're getting hung up.
 
Geoist said:
Why do students get freedom of speech but teachers don't?
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Not while acting as a spokesman for the state, they don't. When they leave the school, they're free to say anything they like.
 
notquiteright said:
Well I can see how you would want to peel the onion and first claim majority and thats ok but then majority and that's not ok. The severity isn't the issue, the over arching philosophy is. In most of the South blacks are a minority, they are a majority only in areas they have been more or less segregated into. I remember from my youth talk of the 'darkie' towns. Here in Oklahoma some towns are still majority black as they were set asides for former slaves to live in. (separate but unequal)

You want to make a pretend 'liberal' to argue against, i would be as much against a student using the Quran as this student and a prayer. Your 'reason' for having a Christian Prayer but balking at a Muslim reading is flawed, we either have religious freedom for all or what is it? If this honor student was Indian and wanted to say a few words in Hindu or a Vietnamese kid and say a short Buddhist prayer then that should be as acceptable to you as a Christian one- dominant culture be damned! :doh

A few years ago a culturally appropriate speech against race mixing was 'ok' by the majority but not 'by law'. That the young person went ahead again isn't the issue, I've been of the mind if he knows what he is doing is not approved but does it anyway fine, but he owns whatever the consequence may or maynot be.

it doesn't seem brave to be but more 'martyr' crap.
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I'm not claiming 'majority', I'm not sure what that even means but you're the one who thought it was an issue and I responded accordingly, I don't think it's an issue. It's just a fact that if you are located in an area where the local culture includes a heavily christian population then you're probably going to run into people of that religion and it's going to be a part of their day to day lives. It's just common sense and to tell anyone that they can't openly display a large part of their lives that's also relevant to a lot of people and hurting no one is just ridiculous.

Who's balking at a Muslim reading? There was no Muslim reading at that event, it's just an imaginary scenario you created where you seemingly wanted us to speculate over how people might react. It's irrelevant since it's not the issue here and it never happened.

This isn't a few years ago and no one was speaking about race mixing, the lords prayer doesn't hurt anyone it doesn't affect any of their rights so your comparison is flawed, stop trying to interject racial inequality here it's not the issue and it has nothing to do with that one kid saying a prayer.

Who's a martyr? Again, you're bringing up a non-issue. The Valedictorian wanted to say a prayer the school was wrong to ban him in the first place, he said it anyways. No ones being martyred here :shrug: I'm just advocating for common sense and for people to not turn stupid and start crying every time someone mentions some aspect of their religion.
 
Redress said:
What a horrible cover of a classic Fugs song, which is odd since Steve Weber was in both bands...
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Thanks! Never realized the Fugs was responsible for that song. Same Fugs who did ****in' A CIA back in the 70s?

EDIT: Most times I'm okay with the auto censor, but in this case it's just ridiculous, that's the name of the song. Frackin' A CIA then.
 
Rainman05 said:
It is his valedictorian speech. It's his time. He can say whatever he wants. The kid finished highschool top of his class and he will have a bright future if he keeps up the good work. The fact that he is religious was a bonus to him and he has no given thanks to what he believed helped him through -> i.e. his faith.

Again. His speech. he has the right to say whatever he wants. Praying isn't hate speech.

Then again, Jesus did warn us of people who pray in public for all to see. they aren't bad people... just prideful people who want to appear modest.
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No, he doesn't. He's at a public function organized and controlled by the school. He is underneath their authority. He doesn't get to say whatever he wants.
 
Geoist said:
Why do students get freedom of speech but teachers don't?
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Students have that sort of authority, but they have different expectations in comparison to educators. Educators are representatives of the public school district, a state entity. They have to, generally speaking, refrain from such speech.
 
Monserrat said:
I'm not claiming 'majority', I'm not sure what that even means but you're the one who thought it was an issue and I responded accordingly, I don't think it's an issue. It's just a fact that if you are located in an area where the local culture includes a heavily christian population then you're probably going to run into people of that religion and it's going to be a part of their day to day lives. It's just common sense and to tell anyone that they can't openly display a large part of their lives that's also relevant to a lot of people and hurting no one is just ridiculous.

Who's balking at a Muslim reading? There was no Muslim reading at that event, it's just an imaginary scenario you created where you seemingly wanted us to speculate over how people might react. It's irrelevant since it's not the issue here and it never happened.

This isn't a few years ago and no one was speaking about race mixing, the lords prayer doesn't hurt anyone it doesn't affect any of their rights so your comparison is flawed, stop trying to interject racial inequality here it's not the issue and it has nothing to do with that one kid saying a prayer.

Who's a martyr? Again, you're bringing up a non-issue. The Valedictorian wanted to say a prayer the school was wrong to ban him in the first place, he said it anyways. No ones being martyred here :shrug: I'm just advocating for common sense and for people to not turn stupid and start crying every time someone mentions some aspect of their religion.
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Ummm you're the one claiming majority culture to justify defying the school district rule. When asked about a Muslim doing the same thing you deflect with 'it aint happened so can't say' crap like a politician. You seem unwilling to see the 'large part of their lives' isn't something they do non stop, does this kid stop others in the hall to speak the Gospel? Does he stop people on the street to share the Word? It also isn't something they need to do at a public venue that isn't there to say grace. I don't have a problem with thanking Gawd, but a prayer was specifically ruled on and ruled out.
 
Fiddytree said:
No, he doesn't. He's at a public function organized and controlled by the school. He is underneath their authority. He doesn't get to say whatever he wants.
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No, he's really not, especially if the ceremony is held off school grounds and outside school hours. School authority at that point is largely illusory.

I've seen near entire student bodies walk out on administrators during graduation flipping him off all the way and the administrator can do nothing about it. They all still received their diplomas in the mail.
 
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