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Valedictorian Defies School District and Recites Lord's Prayer [W:618]

Should the school have banned the reading of the prayer by the student?

  • Yes

    Votes: 24 27.3%

  • No

    Votes: 60 68.2%

  • Undecided

    Votes: 4 4.5%
  • Total voters
    88
Tucker Case said:
BTW, this isn't a freedom of speech issue. The school has every right to have control over the content in THEIR event. If he was outside of the event prattling on about his religion, it would become a free speech issue.
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You do know it's NOT the school's event per se. It's a voluntary event, a celebration, paid for by the participants, and these days generally not even held on school grounds.
 
clownboy said:
You do know it's NOT the school's event per se. It's a voluntary event, a celebration, paid for by the participants, and these days generally not even held on school grounds.
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Very true.
 
davidtaylorjr said:
The prayer was banned. I didn't distort the question.
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No. The school board, when informed that the invocation at graduation was unconstitutional(it is), decided to remove the invocation and replace it with a moment of silence. Praying at the event is not banned(that would be unconstitutional as well).
 
Geoist said:
I don't think anyone is arguing you cannot talk about religion in school. As a teacher myself I held witness to students speaking out about their faith openly in class. I had no problem with it nor should I. But to use a position of privilege (graduation ceremony podium) and mislead the school over his speech is a different matter entirely. What if he decided to use the podium to preach White Power. Would that have been okay too?
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I think it would be the same issue. What is the school really going to do about it? If they are really concerned that they can't control their students on the podium, maybe they ought to do away with the practice of having a valedictorian make a speech.
 
clownboy said:
You do know it's NOT the school's event per se. It's a voluntary event, a celebration, paid for by the participants, and these days generally not even held on school grounds.
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Students had to pay for their own graduation ceremony??? :shock: They may have had to pay for the rental of their graduation robes, but the entire ceremony? I find that very difficult to believe.
 
X Factor said:
It's freedom of religion not freedom from ever seeing or hearing anything religious anywhere ever.
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yes you are 100% correct

although in some cases, very specific cases, it could violate my rights if im made or forced beyond reason to see it or listen to it.

IMO i wouldnt say this fits that case but either way the school has every right to censor or limit the speeches at its functions.

Would this have bothered me personally? no
did he break the rules? yes
 
X Factor said:
It's freedom of religion not freedom from ever seeing or hearing anything religious anywhere ever.
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Public schools are an arm of the state. The state cannot under our constitution establish religion. The issue is not that people will see a prayer.
 
X Factor said:
If what he did was such a high crime against the Constitution then I'm sure you would want something serious to happen to the little traitor.
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I never said he violated the Constitution. I simply said he wasn't protected by the Constitution in this situation. :roll:
 
clownboy said:
You do know it's NOT the school's event per se. It's a voluntary event, a celebration, paid for by the participants, and these days generally not even held on school grounds.
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The school has control over the event, thus it is a school event. Just because it is voluntary does not change that.

And if people are paying to have that celebration, they are not paying to listen to some self-righteous douchebag push his religious views upon all in attendance. I guarantee you that NOBODY was in attendance to pray or worship. None of them. Not even the proselyting valedictorian.
 
clownboy said:
You do know it's NOT the school's event per se. It's a voluntary event, a celebration, paid for by the participants, and these days generally not even held on school grounds.
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Evidence?
 
Redress said:
Public schools are an arm of the state. The state cannot under our constitution establish religion. The issue is not that people will see a prayer.
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A prayer in a speech given by a student does nothing to establish a religion. That clause has been beaten and abused for many years now.
 
davidtaylorjr said:
No I don't ask that, that would be absurd. But when I see Religion being attacked, it makes me mad. Nobody tells the evolutionist or Athiest to shutup, that they can't spread their religion in schools.
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How are 1st Amendment Rights overlooked for Christians compared to other religions? Surely you must have loads of examples.

Religion wasn't being attacked. Religion - your religion, my religion, their religion - has no place in a public school graduation address. Would you be as upset if most public school events were accompanied by Sikh prayer or a Hindu prayer or a Muslim prayer rather than a Christian prayer?

Evolution isn't a religion. Nor is atheism. More to point, I don't know of any high school graduation address where the speaker deviated from his/her prepared speech to recite an evolution or atheist prayer.
 
Geoist said:
I never said he violated the Constitution. I simply said he wasn't protected by the Constitution in this situation. :roll:
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So now that he has no constitutional protections what should be done to him?
 
X Factor said:
A prayer in a speech given by a student does nothing to establish a religion. That clause has been beaten and abused for many years now.
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It certainly can be argued otherwise. However, in this case, he was protesting the removal of a invocation, which would be considered establishment.
 
X Factor said:
So now that he has no constitutional protections what should be done to him?
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The school board properly decided to not do anything.
 
Cephus said:
I think it would be the same issue. What is the school really going to do about it?
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The point is the student did not have a RIGHT to say whatever he wanted. If a racist speech was submitted you can bet the school would not have approved nor allowed him to take the stage. Would such an action violate his 1st Amendment rights? Absolutely not.


If they are really concerned that they can't control their students on the podium, maybe they ought to do away with the practice of having a valedictorian make a speech.
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I dont think any school needs to do such a thing. Every once in a while you will get a dishonest valedictorian, oh well. But to pass this off as a 1st Amendment issue is silly.
 
The way I see it a public government funded school should have no say is stamping out or silencing religion. As a government entity free speech and freedom of religion should be respected completely. If it's a private institution I can see where this would be allowed.

A student with religious beliefs should be allowed to pray or have a religious tone in their graduation speech. I think the government would be overstepping "church and state" boundaries to deprive someone of their ability to thank God, pray, or something else during a speech on government public land. Part of the separation is that the government must separate itself from your beliefs, speech, and views and cannot stop you from speaking or praying or anything else of that nature. It should not mean that it violates the constitution to allow an individual within the institution from exercising their faith or incorporating their own beliefs into a speech. So long as the stance of the school is not endorsing anything then it should be permissible.
 
X Factor said:
So now that he has no constitutional protections what should be done to him?
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Why do you assume I think something should be done to him? Do I think what he did was right? No. Do I think he should be punished/prosecuted? Of course not. The world is not as black and white as some of you conservatives like to make it out to be. ;)
 
digsbe said:
The way I see it a public government funded school should have no say is stamping out or silencing religion. As a government entity free speech and freedom of religion should be respected completely.
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Then a Muslim teacher should be able to preach to his/her students that Allah is the one true God?
 
Geoist said:
Then a Muslim teacher should be able to preach to his/her students that Allah is the one true God?
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No, because that would be the public institution endorsing a belief and respecting a belief. I think a Muslim teacher should be allowed to pray to Allah, share their religious beliefs and even share their belief that Allah is the one true God but they shouldn't be allowed to teach that as fact in the classroom. Neither should a Christian, Jew, or atheist do so. I think many want to interpret "freedom of religion" as "freedom from religion." This should not be the case.
 
Geoist said:
Then a Muslim teacher should be able to preach to his/her students that Allah is the one true God?
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No, I think his point was that a teacher shouldn't teach it but a student should still be able to talk about it and even put it in a speech. Seems reasonable to me.
 
Geoist said:
Evidence?
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Meh, do a search. Here's one indication. The districts I've taught in, the high schools don't have the space for all the students AND all the guests that wish to attend. Tickets for seating are sold and the students run car washes and such to pay for the venue.
 
digsbe said:
But they shouldn't be allowed to teach that as fact.
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If they are not allowed to teach it as "fact" (whatever that means) then they don't have complete freedom of speech at the school.
 
digsbe said:
The way I see it a public government funded school should have no say is stamping out or silencing religion. As a government entity free speech and freedom of religion should be respected completely. If it's a private institution I can see where this would be allowed.

A student with religious beliefs should be allowed to pray or have a religious tone in their graduation speech. I think the government would be overstepping "church and state" boundaries to deprive someone of their ability to thank God, pray, or something else during a speech on government public land. Part of the separation is that the government must separate itself from your beliefs, speech, and views and cannot stop you from speaking or praying or anything else of that nature. It should not mean that it violates the constitution to allow an individual within the institution from exercising their faith or incorporating their own beliefs into a speech. So long as the stance of the school is not endorsing anything then it should be permissible.
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Public schools cannot and should not ban prayer. The difference between praying, and a publicly led prayer in the form of an invocation is very large.
 
X Factor said:
No, I think his point was that a teacher shouldn't teach it but a student should still be able to talk about it and even put it in a speech. Seems reasonable to me.
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Why do students get freedom of speech but teachers don't?
 
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