Bradley Manning: Patriotic Whistleblower or Traitor? [W:64]

The United States should be in the dock, not Bradley Manning - Comment - Voices - The Independent"The whistleblower has allowed us to scrutinise the hidden realities of US power'
"No wonder powerful interests in the US want to make an example of Manning. Among the videos he released was an Apache helicopter conducting a bombing raid that killed Iraqi civilians and a Reuters journalist. “The most alarming aspect of the video to me was the seemingly delightful bloodlust they appeared to have,” Manning has said, appalled by the lack of “value for human life” shown by the pilots’ descriptions of “dead bastards”. Here was the “on-the-ground reality” of both the Iraq and Afghan wars, he claimed."
The United States should be in the dock, not Bradley Manning - Comment - Voices - The Independent Is Manning a whistleblower? Is Manning a spy? Is this a giant cover up and Manning the goat? This is as clean as I can make this because my "enter" key doesn't work in this forum today.

Re: Bradley Manning: Patriotic Whistleblower or Traitor?

DaveFagan said:

The United States should be in the dock, not Bradley Manning - Comment - Voices - The Independent"The whistleblower has allowed us to scrutinise the hidden realities of US power'
"No wonder powerful interests in the US want to make an example of Manning. Among the videos he released was an Apache helicopter conducting a bombing raid that killed Iraqi civilians and a Reuters journalist. “The most alarming aspect of the video to me was the seemingly delightful bloodlust they appeared to have,” Manning has said, appalled by the lack of “value for human life” shown by the pilots’ descriptions of “dead bastards”. Here was the “on-the-ground reality” of both the Iraq and Afghan wars, he claimed."
The United States should be in the dock, not Bradley Manning - Comment - Voices - The Independent Is Manning a whistleblower? Is Manning a spy? Is this a giant cover up and Manning the goat? This is as clean as I can make this because my "enter" key doesn't work in this forum today.

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Poll options
Traitor
Hero
Whistleblower
Manning deserves a medal
Military classification is for cover ups
Time to try the Military

Re: Bradley Manning: Patriotic Whistleblower or Traitor?

Manning at best is someone who broke the law and did not do so IMO as a whistle blower, but to gain notariety. At worse, he is a traitor.

If he really was trying to be a whistle blower, he would have only done so with the material he through was wrong and not hundreds of thousands of cables.

He should be in prison the rest of his life IMO. I take security clearances and what they mean seriously.

Re: Bradley Manning: Patriotic Whistleblower or Traitor?

TheNextEra said:

Manning at best is someone who broke the law and did not do so IMO as a whistle blower, but to gain notariety. At worse, he is a traitor.

If he really was trying to be a whistle blower, he would have only done so with the material he through was wrong and not hundreds of thousands of cables.

He should be in prison the rest of his life IMO. I take security clearances and what they mean seriously.

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It seems that even the Diplomatic Cables that he revealed were duplicitous. To me, the whole scenario reveals that the Military Classification system is used to hide embarrassing or illegal or wrongful actions and has little to do with National Security. I also do not believe he should be tried in a military tribunal because the Tribunal should recuse themselves because of Institutional prejudice. Same for GITMO. We attacked a Nation that was no threat to the security of the USA and I think we are about to suffer "backflash" big time.

Bradley Manning: Patriotic Whistleblower or Traitor?

Manning isn't a noble whistleblower, he's a pissy juvenile who got in WAY over his head. He should be released...20 years from now when he's grown up and admits that what he did was selfish and stupid.

Re: Bradley Manning: Patriotic Whistleblower or Traitor?

Isn't it clear? The only secrets this admin likes to reveal benefit IT. Example our cyber attack on Iran (no leak source ever found), details of the raid on osama to boost the toughest commander in world history, but it it doesn't promote the chosen one it's a secret! I wish we could get a wiki leak on Benghazi so the few people who know could have their knowledge shared.

Re: Bradley Manning: Patriotic Whistleblower or Traitor?

He's a traitor . . . I'm puzzled at the whistleblower notion - what did he reveal? What concern did he have?

None.

He was angry over military anti-gay policies and did something at the spur of the moment to spite them all.

Re: Bradley Manning: Patriotic Whistleblower or Traitor?

Aunt Spiker said:

He's a traitor . . . I'm puzzled at the whistleblower notion - what did he reveal? What concern did he have?

None.

He was angry over military anti-gay policies and did something at the spur of the moment to spite them all.

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He obviously had access to real secrets and didn't reveal any. No weapons info. No Logistics info. No security info. He chose what he released. Isn't that clear to anyone? Nobody would ever have known that the Apache helicopter crew simply killed a bunch of civilians and reporters if he had not revealed it. It is our Modus Operandi in Iraq, Libya, Syria. The Muslim world in general. I'm ashamed of the Apache helicopter attack and think someone in the military should hang for it and it is definitely not Bradley Manning. Wake up. It's the crime here and it is the coverup that needs investigating.

Re: Bradley Manning: Patriotic Whistleblower or Traitor?

Aunt Spiker said:

He's a traitor . . . I'm puzzled at the whistleblower notion - what did he reveal? What concern did he have?

None.

He was angry over military anti-gay policies and did something at the spur of the moment to spite them all.

Click to expand...

He obviously had access to real secrets and didn't reveal any. No weapons info. No Logistics info. No security info. He chose what he released. Isn't that clear to anyone? Nobody would ever have known that the Apache helicopter crew simply killed a bunch of civilians and reporters if he had not revealed it. It is our Modus Operandi in Iraq, Libya, Syria. The Muslim world in general. I'm ashamed of the Apache helicopter attack and think someone in the military should hang for it and it is definitely not Bradley Manning. Wake up. It's the crime here and it is the coverup that needs investigating.

Re: Bradley Manning: Patriotic Whistleblower or Traitor?

DaveFagan said:

He obviously had access to real secrets and didn't reveal any. No weapons info. No Logistics info. No security info. He chose what he released. Isn't that clear to anyone? Nobody would ever have known that the Apache helicopter crew simply killed a bunch of civilians and reporters if he had not revealed it. It is our Modus Operandi in Iraq, Libya, Syria. The Muslim world in general. I'm ashamed of the Apache helicopter attack and think someone in the military should hang for it and it is definitely not Bradley Manning. Wake up. It's the crime here and it is the coverup that needs investigating.

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Did he really choose what he released or just grabbed whatever he could then put it on the internet?

I have a difficult time believing he read even a small fraction of the 250,000 or so files he downloaded.

Re: Bradley Manning: Patriotic Whistleblower or Traitor?

DaveFagan said:

He obviously had access to real secrets and didn't reveal any. No weapons info. No Logistics info. No security info. He chose what he released. Isn't that clear to anyone? Nobody would ever have known that the Apache helicopter crew simply killed a bunch of civilians and reporters if he had not revealed it. It is our Modus Operandi in Iraq, Libya, Syria. The Muslim world in general. I'm ashamed of the Apache helicopter attack and think someone in the military should hang for it and it is definitely not Bradley Manning. Wake up. It's the crime here and it is the coverup that needs investigating.

Click to expand...

Ah - so no whistleblowing . . . just a troublesome ****.

I accept that

Re: Bradley Manning: Patriotic Whistleblower or Traitor?

DaveFagan said:

He obviously had access to real secrets and didn't reveal any. No weapons info. No Logistics info. No security info. He chose what he released. Isn't that clear to anyone? Nobody would ever have known that the Apache helicopter crew simply killed a bunch of civilians and reporters if he had not revealed it. It is our Modus Operandi in Iraq, Libya, Syria. The Muslim world in general. I'm ashamed of the Apache helicopter attack and think someone in the military should hang for it and it is definitely not Bradley Manning. Wake up. It's the crime here and it is the coverup that needs investigating.

Click to expand...

It is HIGHLY doubtful that a junior level analyst on the enlisted side would have access to any of those things in the first place. Truly sensitive information is only distributed on a "need to know" basis.

Furthermore, while we're on the subject, those reporters got more or less exactly what was coming to them. They were covertly skulking around a military convoy in the middle of a warzone with loads of equipment that could easily be mistaken for weaponry from a distance. Why would anyone have expected things to turn out any differently?

The apache running overwatch for the convoy spotted them, noted their suspicious behavior, and blew them all to kingdom come. I believe the phrase best suited to describe my feelings on the matter is, "boo-hoo."

Re: Bradley Manning: Patriotic Whistleblower or Traitor?

Gathomas88 said:

It is HIGHLY doubtful that a junior level analyst on the enlisted side would have access to any of those things in the first place. Truly sensitive information is only distributed on a "need to know" basis.

Furthermore, while we're on the subject, those reporters got more or less exactly what was coming to them. They were covertly skulking around a military convoy in the middle of a warzone with loads of equipment that could easily be mistaken for weaponry from a distance. Why would anyone have expected things to turn out any differently?

The apache running overwatch for the convoy spotted them, noted their suspicious behavior, and blew them all to kingdom come. I believe the phrase best suited to describe my feelings on the matter is, "boo-hoo."

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Complete balderash. Murder is murder. You can't put lipstick on this pig, not even Rash Limpdick would even try. The Apache murder video is the "why" of this mystery.. Ergo, there is on mystery, except to try to figure out how so many allow themselves not to believe their own "lyin' friggin' eyes."

Re: Bradley Manning: Patriotic Whistleblower or Traitor?

Aunt Spiker said:

He's a traitor . . . I'm puzzled at the whistleblower notion - what did he reveal? What concern did he have?

None.

He was angry over military anti-gay policies and did something at the spur of the moment to spite them all.

Click to expand...

Completely and utterly incorrect.

"The defense is saying, no, he specifically was selective with the information he released. He wasn't releasing stuff that could damage the United States, but stuff that he wanted to do that would create a dialogue with the American public. He was thinking about American people, not about the enemy."

Trial Begins for Bradley Manning Over Leaked Classified Documents | PBS NewsHour | June 3, 2013 | PBS

Re: Bradley Manning: Patriotic Whistleblower or Traitor?

DaveFagan said:

Complete balderash. Murder is murder. You can't put lipstick on this pig, not even Rash Limpdick would even try. The Apache murder video is the "why" of this mystery.. Ergo, there is on mystery, except to try to figure out how so many allow themselves not to believe their own "lyin' friggin' eyes."

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Why don't you try sneaking up on an inner city police officer at night with any object even remotely shaped like a weapon and come back and tell me how that works out for you. :roll:

I can guarantee you that there isn't a judge alive who would classify the shooting that would almost certainly follow as "murder."

Re: Bradley Manning: Patriotic Whistleblower or Traitor?

DaveFagan said:

Poll options
Traitor
Hero
Whistleblower
Manning deserves a medal
Military classification is for cover ups
Time to try the Military

Click to expand...

You need to add an option for idiot, because that's what Manning is: a fantastically stupid twat.

Re: Bradley Manning: Patriotic Whistleblower or Traitor?

Gathomas88 said:

Why don't you try sneaking up on an inner city police officer at night with any object even remotely shaped like a weapon and come back and tell me how that works out for you. :roll:

I can guarantee you that there isn't a judge alive who would classify the shooting that would almost certainly follow as "murder."

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Your analogy doesn't remotely fill the bill. We're talking about a video with no deniability. Big embarrassment for the Military, ergo cover it up by classifying it. That ls what this is all about. Then there are people who will always deny the facts if they don't fit the comfortable dream world scenario they're indoctrinated into. How's yours?

Re: Bradley Manning: Patriotic Whistleblower or Traitor?

Gathomas88 said:

Why don't you try sneaking up on an inner city police officer at night with any object even remotely shaped like a weapon and come back and tell me how that works out for you. :roll:

I can guarantee you that there isn't a judge alive who would classify the shooting that would almost certainly follow as "murder."

Click to expand...

Your analogy doesn't remotely fill the bill. We're talking about a video with no deniability. Big embarrassment for the Military, ergo cover it up by classifying it. That ls what this is all about. Then there are people who will always deny the facts if they don't fit the comfortable dream world scenario they're indoctrinated into. How's yours?

Re: Bradley Manning: Patriotic Whistleblower or Traitor?

Whistleblower. The original poster has his facts correct.

Re: Bradley Manning: Patriotic Whistleblower or Traitor?

DaveFagan said:

Your analogy doesn't remotely fill the bill. We're talking about a video with no deniability. Big embarrassment for the Military, ergo cover it up by classifying it. That ls what this is all about. Then there are people who will always deny the facts if they don't fit the comfortable dream world scenario they're indoctrinated into. How's yours?

Click to expand...

I've seen the video; multiple times, as a matter of fact.

It shows a suspicious group of military aged males, carrying a lot of equipment that looks strikingly similar to RPGs and AK-47s, snooping around and pointing said equipment in the direction of a military convoy. If I had been piloting that apache, I would've done exactly the same thing. They appeared to a threat.

Frankly, given the general level of ignorance and idiocy displayed by most civilians on the subject, I don't even necessarily disagree with the military's decision not to release the video. Making it publically available for every uneducated loon to "analyze" simply hasn't resulted in anything productive.

Re: Bradley Manning: Patriotic Whistleblower or Traitor?

DaveFagan said:

The United States should be in the dock, not Bradley Manning - Comment - Voices - The Independent"The whistleblower has allowed us to scrutinise the hidden realities of US power'
"No wonder powerful interests in the US want to make an example of Manning. Among the videos he released was an Apache helicopter conducting a bombing raid that killed Iraqi civilians and a Reuters journalist. “The most alarming aspect of the video to me was the seemingly delightful bloodlust they appeared to have,” Manning has said, appalled by the lack of “value for human life” shown by the pilots’ descriptions of “dead bastards”. Here was the “on-the-ground reality” of both the Iraq and Afghan wars, he claimed."
The United States should be in the dock, not Bradley Manning - Comment - Voices - The Independent Is Manning a whistleblower? Is Manning a spy? Is this a giant cover up and Manning the goat? This is as clean as I can make this because my "enter" key doesn't work in this forum today.

Click to expand...

Screw Bradley Manning and the European left wing press that has tried to turn him into some kind of folk hero. He's an American soldier who, if he didn't commit treason, came damned close.

Re: Bradley Manning: Patriotic Whistleblower or Traitor?

Gathomas88 said:

I've seen the video; multiple times, as a matter of fact.

It shows a suspicious group of military aged males, carrying a lot of equipment that looks strikingly similar to RPGs and AK-47s, snooping around and pointing said equipment in the direction of a military convoy. If I had been piloting that apache, I would've done exactly the same thing. They appeared to a threat.

Frankly, given the general level of ignorance and idiocy displayed by most civilians on the subject, I don't even necessarily disagree with the military's decision not to release the video. Making it publically available for every uneducated loon to "analyze" simply hasn't resulted in anything productive.

Click to expand...

I understand perfectly. There is the truth and then there is what people want to believe. You probably believe that Saddam/Iraq was a threat. Truth: Saddam/Iraq not a threat, ergo the hundreds of thousands of Iraqi dead are on our collective consciences. You and yours will work diligently to cover up the truth and I understand that and so this gets your view in print.

Re: Bradley Manning: Patriotic Whistleblower or Traitor?

DaveFagan said:

I understand perfectly. There is the truth and then there is what people want to believe. You probably believe that Saddam/Iraq was a threat. Truth: Saddam/Iraq not a threat, ergo the hundreds of thousands of Iraqi dead are on our collective consciences. You and yours will work diligently to cover up the truth and I understand that and so this gets your view in print.

Click to expand...

Don't try and change the subject. The question of whether or not the Iraq War happens to have been justified is completely irrelevant to the question of whether or not the apache pilots' actions were justified in this particular incident.

The facts of the matter here remain as follows:

1. The incident took place in an area where US forces had taken fire from enemy combatants on several occasions over the course of the last few weeks.

2. The journalists did not inform the military that they were going to be in the area.

3. They were attempting to film a military convoy (again, in a war zone) in such a manner as to avoid being seen by the soldiers in that convoy.

5. They were not only carrying equipment that could be easily mistaken for weaponry from a distance, but they were actively pointing it at American soldiers from concealed positions.

Simply put, the apache crew would be guilty of gross negligence if they had not fired upon those men. They had absolutely no reason to suspect that the camera crew was not a group of insurgents getting ready to ambush the convoy they had been tasked with protecting.

Regardless of whether it was by design or accident, the journalists in question basically committed "sucide by US military," as far as I'm concerned. If they had wanted to live, they would have followed the proper procedures. It's as simple as that.

Frankly, I'm not even really sure why I'm trying to explan this to you. It's quite obvious that you don't have the slightest idea what goes into military SOPs or Rules of Engagement, and are simply using a tragic accident as an an excuse to further your own anti-military agenda.

Pray tell, how would you have dealt with the situation? Walk right up and say "hi?"

Re: Bradley Manning: Patriotic Whistleblower or Traitor?

Mr. Invisible said:

Completely and utterly incorrect.

"The defense is saying, no, he specifically was selective with the information he released. He wasn't releasing stuff that could damage the United States, but stuff that he wanted to do that would create a dialogue with the American public. He was thinking about American people, not about the enemy."

Trial Begins for Bradley Manning Over Leaked Classified Documents | PBS NewsHour | June 3, 2013 | PBS

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Which is what you would expect the defense to say. Even IF true, not his place to "create a dialogue with the American public" in fact he's signed a number of docs beforehand saying that's what he's prohibitted from doing. A lame excuse in any event, true or not.

Re: Bradley Manning: Patriotic Whistleblower or Traitor?

Gathomas88 said:

Don't try and change the subject. The question of whether or not the Iraq War happens to have been justified is completely irrelevant to the question of whether or not the apache pilots' actions were justified in this particular incident.

The facts of the matter here remain as follows:

1. The incident took place in an area where US forces had taken fire from enemy combatants on several occasions over the course of the last few weeks.

2. The journalists did not inform the military that they were going to be in the area.

3. They were attempting to film a military convoy (again, in a war zone) in such a manner as to avoid being seen by the soldiers in that convoy.

5. They were not only carrying equipment that could be easily mistaken for weaponry from a distance, but they were actively pointing it at American soldiers from concealed positions.

Simply put, the apache crew would be guilty of gross negligence if they had not fired upon those men. They had absolutely no reason to suspect that the camera crew was not a group of insurgents getting ready to ambush the convoy they had been tasked with protecting.

Regardless of whether it was by design or accident, the journalists in question basically committed "sucide by US military," as far as I'm concerned. If they had wanted to live, they would have followed the proper procedures. It's as simple as that.

Frankly, I'm not even really sure why I'm trying to explan this to you. It's quite obvious that you don't have the slightest idea what goes into military SOPs or Rules of Engagement, and are simply using a tragic accident as an an excuse to further your own anti-military agenda.

Pray tell, how would you have dealt with the situation? Walk right up and say "hi?"

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They were in a helicopter that could have moved closer to the scene for a better look at over a hundred mph. Binoculars would have made identification easy. Your argument doesn't wash. I remember "free fire zones" in Vietnam. Shoot everything. Farmers that are overrun by one army going south one week and the next week overrun by an army going north, food stolen, women raped, stuff trashed, just trying to survive and since we were aircrew, we were authorized to and expected to shoot up the farmer's hooch from the air, not caring if anyone inside. Military logic, sucked then, sucks now. Still lipstick on a pig.

Bradley Manning is guilty of exposing the truth!