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Institutional Racism [W:344]

Does institutional racism currently exist in America?


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I'm not even surew where to begin with this. Clearly if their music is based on their lifestyle, it's strange to claim they are separate and one doesn't have a bearing over the other when we are discussing musical content here
I'm done debating you and this is why. In the post of mine that you just quoted, I said, "Their lives may influence their music or their music may influence their lives, but their lives and their music are two separate things." Above, you cut that part of my post out and then accused me of claiming one's lifestyle doesn't have any bearing on their music. That you would accuse me of doing something when I specifically did the opposite and then cut the part of my post that demonstrates this is dishonest. You've been dishonest in this entire "discussion" and I've given you several chances to redeem yourself. We're done.
 
I'm done debating you and this is why. In the post of mine that you just quoted, I said, "Their lives may influence their music or their music may influence their lives, but their lives and their music are two separate things."

Right, you're trying to make a distinction without a difference. I'm pointing to the fact that they are glorifying hyper violent lifestyles that they actively live. You're going but their lives and music are literally two different things.

I'm unsure why that even needs pointed out or what bearing it has on what I have written here.

That you would accuse me of doing something when I specifically did the opposite and then cut the part of my post that demonstrates this is dishonest. You've been dishonest in this entire "discussion" and I've given you several chances to redeem yourself. We're done.

But that is what you are trying to do. You originally claimed violent lyrics were no different than sexist ones. My reply was to point out these go beyond mere artistic representations of violence, but are an actual means to glorify the crimes committed by the artist themselves, and ultimately work to promote such a lifestyle to their fans. You then try to argue I am now discussing their lifestyle which is separate from their music, ignoring the fact that their lifestyle is the subject of their music and the later serves to promote it

You speaking out of both sides of your mouth on the issue changes none of that.
 
Let me ask you a question. Is a middle class black student less likely to succeed then a poor inner city white? Is a poor inner city black student less likely to succeed then a poor inner city white student?
Depends on the students. They are all dealing with different types of privilege and disadvantage.

To me equality isn't some rigid standard where literally everyone has the same results.
That's not what it means to me either.

We have done things to help poor blacks for the 50 something years since Dr. King made such a statement.
Not nearly enough has been done.

I'd argue that such racism isn't the primary roadblock for the black community as a whole, and if anything such affirmative action may be harmful by creating resentment by individuals who had nothing to do with the racism that persisted in the 1960s.
People who are resentful of affirmative action have problems. They aren't my concern.

Rather, I think a better solution is to improve the success rate of black Americans as a whole by reducing crime, improving schools, and reinstitutionalizing the family.
Education should be improved, I agree. Reducing crime should happen as well - although reducing crime isn't at much of a solution as it is a problem. As far as the family, that's not something the government should be involving itself in.

Not only will this help blacks succeed, but my bet is that it will most likely improve their perception as well, which will reduce instances of actual racism. Irish, Eastern European, and Jewish immigrants were all treated hostilely at one point in American history, and I don't think that was solved by singling those groups out and giving them extra benefits to make up for it.
Actually, immigrants were singled out and given "extra benefits" when they got here. In fact, they are still getting benefits as there are programs, scholarships and other things specifically geared towards helping immigrants succeed. There's also the fact the Irish, Eastern Euro and Jewish immigrants had the benefit of looking a lot of like the white people who controlled the power structures in society so they (and especially their children) assimilated much more easily than blacks did. In fact, one of the ways that those groups made their way up in society was by embracing racism against blacks in solidarity with white Americans. Moreover, immigrants did not have to deal with the systemic racism and its consequences that blacks had to deal with. In other words, your comparison is a failure for several reasons.
 
I consider "**** bitches" to be slightly offensive. I consider it more offensive when I actually see people adopting that attitude. I don't think the attitude "that boy is cute" is particularly all that harmful in its own right. But to each their own.
I don't get offended easily. I also don't do superficial analyses of music. I see the music you're denigrating as a reflection of a culture with problems that some people don't want to address and would rather just treat themselves as superior to than look any deeper.

As far as the "that boy is cute" line. Like I said, I don't find it offensive, but talk to certain feminists and you'll get a different perspective on why such airheadedness in mainstream music is perceived as a problem for improving perceptions of women.
 
one of the ways that those groups made their way up in society was by embracing racism against blacks in solidarity with white Americans.

what are you referring to?
 
As far as the "that boy is cute" line. Like I said, I don't find it offensive, but talk to certain feminists and you'll get a different perspective on why such airheadedness in mainstream music is perceived as a problem for improving perceptions of women.

right, but clearly there is a qualitative difference there to a guy rapping about shooting people and being heavily involved in drug dealing. And who has been implicated in six different murders, belongs to various street gangs, and who has been implicated in various drug distribution schemes
 
Institutional racism is most prevalent in law enforcement and education.

African and Hispanic Americans are much more likely to be stopped by police, more likely to be charged and receive stiffer sentences, especially for drug offense, despite evidence that they do not offend more than whites.

Education funding largely depends on the wealth of the surrounding communities, so low income, mostly minority, people are denied equal educational opportunities, despite having greater needs due to the problems associated with poverty.
 
Education funding largely depends on the wealth of the surrounding communities, so low income, mostly minority, people are denied equal educational opportunities, despite having greater needs due to the problems associated with poverty.

That's a ****ty policy, but not because it's in anyway racist. It affects all people of low means, regardless of color
 
Yes, but not in the way people always think. I think holding minorities to a defacto lower standard of performance/expectation whether it comes to academics, college admissions or public assistance programs creates a negative feedback loop of sorts that causes a great many minorities to have lower expectations for themselves. It becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.

the answer to the thread question lies in posts like this one ... Next question?
 
1. That's a very (pervasive) surface analysis of hip-hop and rap. Rap, like every other form of art, tells stories. It is a reflection of the environment it is coming from. Therefore, to hold art responsible for inequality is wrongheaded. Such art may perpetuate problems that are already there, but it does not cause them. Therefore, the more important question to ask is why are the problems that rap and hip-hop describe there in the first place.

The rap and hip-hop genres and the rap and hip-hop cultures are two different thing. I could point to Will Smith and note how upbeat and positive his rap is and the extreme lack of cuss words in his music. It's sub genres like gansta and others which are more pervasive than the tamer sub genres that have a holding back influence on many, especially those in the inner city and similar situations. Of course there then there is the tendency of such styles to to promote negative words and ideas like "nigger". Seriously, you can't claim "nigger" to be a racist word and then use it left and right.

2. You are correct that some factions within hip-hop culture berate successful blacks as "too white." It is, however, inaccurate to generalize the culture as doing that as a whole. More than that, some people in White culture berate people who try to succeed as well. For examples, look at how many so-called "nerds" are treated in predominantly white environments. You can also look at how much of the right denigrates higher education. In other words, anti-success sentiments are pervasive in America, period. Because it isn't a uniquely Black American problem, it isn't a valid explanation for why black Americans, in particular, are unequal in society.

You'll note that I did not generalized the culture as a whole. I noted it's influence and asked how much weight does it have. I'd like some samples of the "right" denigrating higher education.
 
Institutional racism is most prevalent in law enforcement and education.

African and Hispanic Americans are much more likely to be stopped by police, more likely to be charged and receive stiffer sentences, especially for drug offense, despite evidence that they do not offend more than whites.

Education funding largely depends on the wealth of the surrounding communities, so low income, mostly minority, people are denied equal educational opportunities, despite having greater needs due to the problems associated with poverty.


Data from NYPD study - "The analysis of 2012 statistics provided by the Public Advocate’s office shows that the likelihood that an African American detained for search would be found in possession of a weapon was half that of a white person.

Specifically, the New York Police Department uncovered a weapon in one out of every 49 stops of white New Yorkers, while for Latinos a weapon was found for every 71 stops, and for African Americans that number was 93 stops.

Meanwhile, the likelihood that a stop of an African American New Yorker would yield contraband was one-third less than that of white New Yorkers stopped"
 
Music / movies are both heavily influential on all cultures. To say they are meaningless to this topic is absolutely ridiculous.

good thing i dindt say they arent influential on cultures then huh? LOL so yes your whole post is absolute ridiculous.
please stay on topic to what was ACTUALLY being discussed

they are 100% meaningless to educated civil people as far as behavior influences to be a good or bad person.
Your mistake.
 
Nope. Lil B rapping, "Bitches suck my dick because I look like J.K. Rowling," is just as stupid as Katy Perry singing, "I kissed a girl and I liked it." They both are not only just dumb lyrics, but they both perpetuate ignorance surrounding women and sexuality. The only difference is that Lil B uses more explicit language which is only means that it offends some people's sensibilities.

How does Katy Perry singing, "I kissed a girl and I liked it" perpetuate ignorance surrounding women and sexuality? I don't see any misinformation in that lyric or any sexist attitudes. I hope you know that many women/girls enjoy kissing "girls." It seems to accurately reflect the feelings that many young women experience.
 
Data from NYPD study - "The analysis of 2012 statistics provided by the Public Advocate’s office shows that the likelihood that an African American detained for search would be found in possession of a weapon was half that of a white person.

Specifically, the New York Police Department uncovered a weapon in one out of every 49 stops of white New Yorkers, while for Latinos a weapon was found for every 71 stops, and for African Americans that number was 93 stops.

Meanwhile, the likelihood that a stop of an African American New Yorker would yield contraband was one-third less than that of white New Yorkers stopped"

Why don't people post LINKS???
 
Depends on the students. They are all dealing with different types of privilege and disadvantage.


That's not what it means to me either.


Not nearly enough has been done.


People who are resentful of affirmative action have problems. They aren't my concern.

Education should be improved, I agree. Reducing crime should happen as well - although reducing crime isn't at much of a solution as it is a problem. As far as the family, that's not something the government should be involving itself in.


Actually, immigrants were singled out and given "extra benefits" when they got here. In fact, they are still getting benefits as there are programs, scholarships and other things specifically geared towards helping immigrants succeed. There's also the fact the Irish, Eastern Euro and Jewish immigrants had the benefit of looking a lot of like the white people who controlled the power structures in society so they (and especially their children) assimilated much more easily than blacks did. In fact, one of the ways that those groups made their way up in society was by embracing racism against blacks in solidarity with white Americans. Moreover, immigrants did not have to deal with the systemic racism and its consequences that blacks had to deal with. In other words, your comparison is a failure for several reasons.

They are your concern. Imagine your personal work position. Imagine your boss came in and told you "sorry, you're a really really hard worker, but we feel like we really need to have a black in your position so we can meet our diversity quota, we have to let you go." How would you feel? Honestly? If you were being judged based on something other then your personal ability and work ethic that you can't control, that wouldn't make you resentful?

Scholarships aren't affirmative action in my opinion. Pell grants are granted to those who cannot afford college. A large majority of such people will probably be of minority status. Paying for their college is somewhat against what I think is the best solution as a libertarian, and I think it places a bit too high of an emphasis on college as the end all be all solution. But at least students have to get accepted into college on their own merit.

But to hold students to a different standard completely based on race? Seriously? I'm going to be applying to Medical School in the next 1-2 years. Its honestly racist and insulting to see that across the board, minorities are held to lower standards for admission. I have a good friend of mine who is black, who is from the same neighborhood as me (similar income levels), who has a much higher GPA then I do. I would probably guess we are going to score similarly on the MCAT, but if anyone is going to score higher it will probably be him. To even think that I would get accepted to Med School ahead of him simply because I'm white would have the ACLU filing a lawsuit against that school in a heartbeat. But make me black, and him white, and suddenly me getting into Med School ahead of him is okay? We are both college students at the same college. How on earth does either of our races make even the slightest bit of difference in how much effort we put into our classes? Or how good of a doctor either of us would make? The point is talking about the historical perspective of blacks and racism misses the point of current human experience. And that experience, suggests that if you want to preach equality you can't hold blacks and whites who live next door to each other to separate standards.
 
I don't get offended easily. I also don't do superficial analyses of music. I see the music you're denigrating as a reflection of a culture with problems that some people don't want to address and would rather just treat themselves as superior to than look any deeper.

As far as the "that boy is cute" line. Like I said, I don't find it offensive, but talk to certain feminists and you'll get a different perspective on why such airheadedness in mainstream music is perceived as a problem for improving perceptions of women.

Now you're putting words in my mouth. No where did I say it was a reflection of culture of all African Americans.

I don't need to talk to feminists about "perceived problems" about improving perceptions of women. I don't make perceptions of women to begin with. Women make up half the population. Sure, I've run into plenty of airheaded women in my life, but I've also run into plenty of extremely sharp women in my life as well. I've run into who I percieve to be sharp women who make airheaded decisions. I've met who I perceive to be airheaded women who make very smart comments or decisions. Its just as unfair to call women airheaded because some woman wrote a song about how cute a boy is just as it is wrong to call all blacks thugs or gangsters just because some rapper is talking about gangbanging or prostitution. I perceive people based on their actions, and their actions alone.

But one does not need to look deeper to understand that there are some blacks who act like gangsters. There are some whites as well who emulate that culture. For probably a majority of people who adopt that culture, they are just doing it for social capital. Not all people who act like gangsters are criminals, but a culture that romanticizes violence and misogyny is probably more likely to see that sort of behavior occur in higher frequency.

Where I get dismissive, isn't when people start talking about problems within the black community. Its when people start talking about problems within the black community, as if it is my fault. Bull****. When people act like the only thing wrong with inner cities is my perception of inner cities, I call bull****. When people talk about racism as if its the biggest problem in the entire world, more important then marriage, personal choice, or crime, I call bull****. And it gets old hearing people like this, because it is completely distracting from real issues.
 
That's why I said "The only difference is that Lil B uses more explicit language." Thank you for repeating what I said as if it was your own thought. As for the rest of your post, your analysis is just a surface one just like most analyses of rap music in comparison to other genres. Most people who denigrate rap, in particular, do so on the basis that rap is more explicit in its problematic content. The implication of such superficial analyses is that music is only a problem when it is overt with its problematic features. I don't agree with that so your comment that my position is an "utter failure" is meaningless to me. It's hard for me to take critics of rap seriously when they've only shown that they are capable of superficial analyses of music and when they don't adequately acknowledge problems in other genres. /shrug

Superficial music is meant to be judged superficially. Deep music is meant to be judged deeply. If a superficial song isn't offensive on a superficial level, it isn't my place to make a spectacle of myself talking about how a superficial song secretly has some subconscious, deep meaning that reflects a flawed society.

We have enough real problems in the world today without me making up some of my own.
 
beats me! I'll get on this windowdressing guy right away to provide a link! (And what kind of a moniker is "windowdressing?")

Thanks, I appreciate it. I think if you just PM him, he'll do a better job. I would do it, but I don't know how.
 
Data from NYPD study - "The analysis of 2012 statistics provided by the Public Advocate’s office shows that the likelihood that an African American detained for search would be found in possession of a weapon was half that of a white person.

Specifically, the New York Police Department uncovered a weapon in one out of every 49 stops of white New Yorkers, while for Latinos a weapon was found for every 71 stops, and for African Americans that number was 93 stops.

Meanwhile, the likelihood that a stop of an African American New Yorker would yield contraband was one-third less than that of white New Yorkers stopped"

Cool, so they got stopped, held up, and then were free to go when innocent. Is that the big bad wolf of racism, that it unfairly wastes people's time?
 
The rap and hip-hop genres and the rap and hip-hop cultures are two different thing. I could point to Will Smith and note how upbeat and positive his rap is and the extreme lack of cuss words in his music. It's sub genres like gansta and others which are more pervasive than the tamer sub genres that have a holding back influence on many, especially those in the inner city and similar situations. Of course there then there is the tendency of such styles to to promote negative words and ideas like "nigger". Seriously, you can't claim "nigger" to be a racist word and then use it left and right.
Actually, words can have different meanings in different contexts so "nigger" can be racist in certain context and not in others. That's not even an argument. That's literally just a fact.

The rest of your comments about sub genres of rap don't counter anything that I said. Again, art is primarily a reflection of the environment that it comes from. As a result, it, at most, perpetuates problems in the black population. Therefore, positing that rap or hip-hop music and culture cause hurt blacks more than institutional racism doesn't make any sense.

You'll note that I did not generalized the culture as a whole. I noted it's influence and asked how much weight does it have.
Actually, you did generalize the culture as whole. You said, "it is the rap/hip-hop culture that shuns learning and real work and berates blacks who are trying as being "too white" for trying to succeed". You described the culture as one that shins learning and real work and berates blacks as being "too white." That's a generalization. I corrected it.

I'd like some samples of the "right" denigrating higher education.
I don't believe you're unaware of how common denigrating higher education as "liberal indoctrination" is among conservatives, so you can find your own "samples".
 
Superficial music is meant to be judged superficially. Deep music is meant to be judged deeply. If a superficial song isn't offensive on a superficial level, it isn't my place to make a spectacle of myself talking about how a superficial song secretly has some subconscious, deep meaning that reflects a flawed society.
No, superficial things are still reflections of society. It's actually a good thing to recognize that and look beyond the surface of things to get a better understanding of where they are coming from. In any case, thank you for letting me know that you don't do critical thinking. It make a lot of sense and it will save me some time.
 
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