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Should employers be allowed to pay tipped employees less than minimum wage?

Should employers be allowed to pay tipped employees less than minimum wage?

  • Yes

    Votes: 22 41.5%
  • No

    Votes: 31 58.5%
  • Don't know

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    53
Minimum wage is just another example of counter productive government interference and prevention of free market economics.

Do you not care that because I'm forced to pay you more than your natural market worth I end up hiring less people overall? Do you not care that due to being forced to overpay one group of people, another group will be left completely unemployed for the foreseeable future?

Edgar the Exploiter - YouTube

If the minimum wage is too much for you to pay your people, get out of the business and make room for a better businessman. Geez, maybe you'd like to import Somalian families and set up a sweatshop in Texas making hats for Nike.
Overpay? Minimum wage is overpay? Do you hear yourself?
 
No, my comment implies that I might need 5, and there might be 5 people willing to work for what I'd like to offer, but instead I'll only hire 3. Watch the video, it explains the concept clearly.

Or, to put it another way: Minimum wages create an artificial economy where wages aren't tied to worker productivity in any way. In the long term, that can only cause harm.


If you can't make enough money in your business to pay minimum wage you don't deserve to be in business. Simple. This is one of the differences between the US and Pakistan.
 
If the minimum wage is too much for you to pay your people, get out of the business and make room for a better businessman. Geez, maybe you'd like to import Somalian families and set up a sweatshop in Texas making hats for Nike.
Overpay? Minimum wage is overpay? Do you hear yourself?

It depends on the context and the work. I don't know what minimum wage is in the US, but after having to pay unskilled Australians over $20 per hour for work that anyone could do, I ended up moving operations to Cambodia (where there is also a minimum wage, but it's more reasonable, and people are actually grateful for the employment). You're seeing the same thing happen with US jobs, but you seem to be having trouble connecting the dots.

You can't make a minimum wage for the entire world, so all you're doing at this point is putting your nation out of business. Again, I'd urge you to watch the video I linked to, it clearly explains why your idea may sound good in theory, but is counter productive in practice. You are reducing the wages for skilled workers, and reducing the overall number of jobs available to your citizens.

You can tell me I'm not good at business and that I should shut up shop, but the fact is I'm roughly 30 years old, I've already paid millions and millions of dollars in taxes, and have provided jobs for over a hundred people. What are you doing for the economy that is so much better?
 
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It depends on the context and the work. I don't know what minimum wage is in the US, but after having to pay unskilled Australians over $20 per hour for work that anyone could do, I ended up moving operations to Cambodia (where there is also a minimum wage, but it's more reasonable, and people are actually grateful for the employment). You're seeing the same thing happen with US jobs, but you seem to be having trouble connecting the dots.

You can't make a minimum wage for the entire world, so all you're doing at this point is putting your nation out of business. Again, I'd urge you to watch the video I linked to, it clearly explains why your idea may sound good in theory, but is counter productive in practice. You are reducing the wages for skilled workers, and reducing the overall number of jobs available to your citizens.

You can tell me I'm not good at business and that I should shut up shop, but the fact is I'm roughly 30 years old, I've already paid millions and millions of dollars in taxes, and have provided jobs for over a hundred people. What are you doing for the economy that is so much better?

I'm in Canada.
You relocating business to Cambodia for the cheap labour pretty much ends this discussion. I'd rather not incur the ban from this forum I'd incur by expressing my opinion.
Cheers.
 
I'm in Canada.
You relocating business to Cambodia for the cheap labour pretty much ends this discussion. I'd rather not incur the ban from this forum I'd incur by expressing my opinion.
Cheers.

Free market economics bro. As I said, it was work that could have been done by anyone. Skilled labor doesn't require minimum wage to exist because it's economically sustainable on its own, the natural market price is higher than the state minimum anyway. Except, setting high minimum wages for unskilled workers means there is less money for the skilled workers, so you're screwing them over too.

If you don't think I should have relocated, then what do you think I should have done instead? Just waited for my competitors to do it first then let me and all my staff go out of business due to being financially uncompetitive? Seriously, I'd love to know what you think I should have done if you have such a problem with what I did. I wouldn't have done it if I could have just paid them $15 per hour instead of $20, then they'd all still be happily employed. I had to do it because of exactly the policies I'm arguing against. You sound like you want everyone to be paid a million bucks an hour and for employers not to be allowed to make foreign investments.

No one is going to ban you for expressing an opinion unless you can't do it without resorting to insults.
 
Personally, when I tip it's a kind of thank-you for good service, between me and the server. I don't want to subsidize the owner so he can pay his people less. If I knew that was happening I'd stop tipping and if everyone did the place would eventually not be able to get servers.

If you don't like the idea of waitstaff depending on tips for their income, then don't tip. But, for God's sake! Don't sit at one of my tables. ;)
 
The majority of waiters/waitresses I know may complain about their hourly salary, but in most cases they rely on the money they get from tips than their normal pay. Why? Because although they are suppose to report their tips not only to their boss but on their taxes, few do. And that means more "unreported income" for them.

Now, the flip side to this argument is if the waiter/waitress doesn't bring home enough in tips to make ends meet their normal pay usually isn't enough to make up the difference. So, it's a catch-22...damned if they complain too loudly, damned if they keep their mouth shut and don't make enough in tips to cover their expenditures. To put it mildly, most folks who work for tips would rather get paid that way than on a typical average wage because depending on how things go (i.e., holiday, special occasion, major sporting event, etc.) they stand to make more money in a few days than some folks make in a week at or even above minimum wage.

I guess when it really comes down to it, if you're good at what you do in whatever industry you do it in be it restaurant, night club, cabby, barber or even shoeshine boy, the tips should role in. And if you're able to keep most of it all to yourself, you make out like a bandit...literally. :) To sum it up, I'd say tips are "extra" income for "a job well-done". So, my answer would be "NO". An honest day's work for an honest day's pay. But when you're being paid for less than your worth, the customer's make up the difference which really shouldn't be a "difference maker" in pay at all. It's earnings- an added bonus as it were - for good customer service.

Note: I mistakenly voted "Yes" when I meant "No".
Virtually every server I have ever known does NOT report all their tips to the IRS. They have to report something, because 0% is simply not believable, but they don't report it all.

I have seen a recent trend on some pro-tipping websites promoting that customers who pay their checks via credit cards to separate and leave the tip in cash, precisely so the exact amount is hidden and non-traceable. 8% is expected by the IRS (or was, it may have since changed), but most customers tip way beyond that.

Personally, I find that offensive. They're actively advocating recruiting customers to be accomplices in tax evasion.
 
in Quebec there are 2 minimum wages one for regular workers and another lower one for tip earners. Been like that for a long time.
 
If you don't like the idea of waitstaff depending on tips for their income, then don't tip. But, for God's sake! Don't sit at one of my tables. ;)

(grin!) No, I don't have a problem with servers depending on tips. I just don't like the idea of the owner depending on tips to pay his staff. He should kick in at least minimum wage, my opinion.
 
I vote no. My tip is intended as a reward for the server, not a subsidy for the owner.

I agree, but the server has to *EARN* the tip, it should never be something that's simply expected because they did their job. A tip ought to be a reward for going above and beyond the call of duty.
 
I vote no. My tip is intended as a reward for the server, not a subsidy for the owner.

That's how I look at it. If someone gives me good service they get a good tip, if I get crappy service they get no tip since I don't think their work merited it. A tip should be a private reward between customer and server, not a means of primary income for the server from the perspective of the employer.
 
I agree, but the server has to *EARN* the tip, it should never be something that's simply expected because they did their job. A tip ought to be a reward for going above and beyond the call of duty.

after having to deal with customers during jobs in college, anything short of the server throwing the glass at my head seems "above the call of duty." i won't tip if they forget to take my order or do something horrible. otherwise, i go twenty plus percent and chalk it up for good karma. i'd feel a lot better if my tip wasn't subsidizing a $2.13 per hour base salary, though. i'm not one of those who thinks that we can make the minimum wage $100 an hour and that everyone will be instantly rich, but i think there should be one, and that people shouldn't be allowed to cheat and not pay it.
 
after having to deal with customers during jobs in college, anything short of the server throwing the glass at my head seems "above the call of duty." i won't tip if they forget to take my order or do something horrible. otherwise, i go twenty plus percent and chalk it up for good karma. i'd feel a lot better if my tip wasn't subsidizing a $2.13 per hour base salary, though. i'm not one of those who thinks that we can make the minimum wage $100 an hour and that everyone will be instantly rich, but i think there should be one, and that people shouldn't be allowed to cheat and not pay it.

Sorry, I don't tip for bad service and there's a lot of bad service out there. Waiting a half-hour for a drink refill is bad service, in fact, lots of servers bring your food... eventually... and vanish, never to be seen again. Those people never get a tip from me. A tip is a reward, it has to be earned. These people are being paid for their service, not for their mere presence. I tip well for people who earn it, I do not tip for people who do not. In fact, for people who do not earn it, I may have a talk with the manager.
 
after having to deal with customers during jobs in college, anything short of the server throwing the glass at my head seems "above the call of duty." i won't tip if they forget to take my order or do something horrible. otherwise, i go twenty plus percent and chalk it up for good karma. i'd feel a lot better if my tip wasn't subsidizing a $2.13 per hour base salary, though. i'm not one of those who thinks that we can make the minimum wage $100 an hour and that everyone will be instantly rich, but i think there should be one, and that people shouldn't be allowed to cheat and not pay it.

Exactly! It's extremely frustrating to go above and beyond for someone who thinks 10% is a good tip. I personally think we should pull pictures off of security cameras of people who are ****ty tippers or don't tip at all and like put it on a website by region, that way the customer gets exactly what they pay for...
 
Sorry, I don't tip for bad service and there's a lot of bad service out there. Waiting a half-hour for a drink refill is bad service, in fact, lots of servers bring your food... eventually... and vanish, never to be seen again. Those people never get a tip from me. A tip is a reward, it has to be earned. These people are being paid for their service, not for their mere presence. I tip well for people who earn it, I do not tip for people who do not. In fact, for people who do not earn it, I may have a talk with the manager.

Some people prefer it that way. Bring the food, keep my drink full. Let me eat.
 
Some people prefer it that way. Bring the food, keep my drink full. Let me eat.

Which is fine, so long as they bring the food and keep the drink full. I mean servers that take forever to bring the food and your glass sits empty the whole time.
 
Which is fine, so long as they bring the food and keep the drink full. I mean servers that take forever to bring the food and your glass sits empty the whole time.

Exactly, if I give bad service I don't expect a tip. I don't give bad service very often, but it happens, but as I said. People here in Redneck Town, Alabama think 10% is great; ya, it's not. So, it get's frustrating to do great and get 2 dollars.
 
biggest tip I ever gave in terms of % was 100 and the service was lousy. It wasn't the servers fault though. I was in a pub for lunch and there had to be 200 people there looking around there was only 3 servers for the whole place (normally there is at least 12-15. People were yelling at the guy constantly while he was running his ass off. He was polite with everyone even the a**holes who were screaming at him (and wasting his time making everyone else's service even slower). This was, if anything, managements fault for not having enough staff or not closing down part of the pub to have the servers deal with a manageable # of tables. Was some of the slowest service I ever had but the guy was polite and obviously was trying his hardest. Sometimes there are reasons for slow service, sometimes there isn't.
 
Virtually every server I have ever known does NOT report all their tips to the IRS. They have to report something, because 0% is simply not believable, but they don't report it all.

I have seen a recent trend on some pro-tipping websites promoting that customers who pay their checks via credit cards to separate and leave the tip in cash, precisely so the exact amount is hidden and non-traceable. 8% is expected by the IRS (or was, it may have since changed), but most customers tip way beyond that.

Personally, I find that offensive. They're actively advocating recruiting customers to be accomplices in tax evasion.

I don't see it that way...tax evasion. I see it just the opposite.

Customer's aren't required to tip their servers. As such, why should the server be required to report the tip to the IRS or even their employer? Now, some night club owners get around this (or should I say "get away with it") by charging their "hostages" and showgirls a monthly maintenance fee OR they charge a percentage of their tips. The former I can understand because you're providing room for the lady to store and maintain her customers (if we can call it that) among other things. And then there's the "tip" for the DJ and the bouncer (which is usually a collective effort by the ladies).

The premise behind tipping is "a fair exchange ain't no robbery"...performance (service) for value (entertainment). You could make the same argument for waiters and waitresses...service (they take your order, bring you your food and drink) for value (fair market price for good food and drink). But to say that because these people in such service related jobs are "cheating the IRS" is non-sense. If you don't want to leave a tip either because the service was lousy or just out of principle, then don't do it. (But in the case of the latter, you'd better hope your waiter/waitress doesn't remember your face on your next visit. Otherwise, you might want to take caution before you take that first bite of your hamburger or sip of that iced tea - sweet or unsweet.
 
Exactly, if I give bad service I don't expect a tip. I don't give bad service very often, but it happens, but as I said. People here in Redneck Town, Alabama think 10% is great; ya, it's not. So, it get's frustrating to do great and get 2 dollars.

You have to remember, it isn't what you consider good service that matters, it's what your customer considers good service. They make their own subjective determinations and pay appropriately what they think your service is worth to them.
 
I don't see it that way...tax evasion. I see it just the opposite.

Customer's aren't required to tip their servers. As such, why should the server be required to report the tip to the IRS or even their employer? Now, some night club owners get around this (or should I say "get away with it") by charging their "hostages" and showgirls a monthly maintenance fee OR they charge a percentage of their tips. The former I can understand because you're providing room for the lady to store and maintain her customers (if we can call it that) among other things. And then there's the "tip" for the DJ and the bouncer (which is usually a collective effort by the ladies).

The premise behind tipping is "a fair exchange ain't no robbery"...performance (service) for value (entertainment). You could make the same argument for waiters and waitresses...service (they take your order, bring you your food and drink) for value (fair market price for good food and drink). But to say that because these people in such service related jobs are "cheating the IRS" is non-sense. If you don't want to leave a tip either because the service was lousy or just out of principle, then don't do it. (But in the case of the latter, you'd better hope your waiter/waitress doesn't remember your face on your next visit. Otherwise, you might want to take caution before you take that first bite of your hamburger or sip of that iced tea - sweet or unsweet.
I agree with you in principle. If I were the "tax czar", tips would not be taxable income at all. IMO, it's a gift, not income*. I was just stating how the system presently works, and while I actually don't have an issue with individuals reducing their tax liability as much as possible, I do think it's bad form for others to outright push for it in the way these websites that I mentioned do.

*- I don't think gifts should be taxable, either.
 
*- I don't think gifts should be taxable, either.
Why should governments be allowed to take money that people work hard for (ie, income tax in general), but not money that people do nothing to get? Backwards ethics imho.
 
If you can't make enough money in your business to pay minimum wage you don't deserve to be in business. Simple. This is one of the differences between the US and Pakistan.

Then you better speak up if the government ever tries to drive the economy into the ground by giving in to these people *itching for $15/hr minimum wages as we speak. In particular, places like fast food that keep their prices low because of the low skill level of employees and cheap ingredients will have to jack their prices if forced to pay employees double their value.
 
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Why should governments be allowed to take money that people work hard for (ie, income tax in general), but not money that people do nothing to get? Backwards ethics imho.

I think you're confusing "productivity" with "services rendered". Both have similar profit motives only one involves the exchange for a tangible product for currency whereas the other involves recognition on the part of the consumers to validate quality services rendered and reward that service accordingly. Either way, someone had to "work" to produce that product same as someone had to "work" to provide that quality service. Different energy output, but it's still "hard work".

So, what's the difference in taxation? A service isn't always a product one can consume. It's usually a task one performs. So, if I perform a task that does result in the creation of a tangible object or it's direct resell, I shouldn't have to pay a tax for that service. Let's compare a car salesman with a lawncare service.

The car salesman didn't make the car...had no involvement with it's creation, but by default his job IS to push the product. His wages, thus, are rightly taxed under the law.

A lawncare service should never charge a sales tax to its customers just to mow the lawn, but if that lawcare it involves the sale of merchandise to beautify or alter the landscape, the company should apply the sales tax accordingly.

Both involve "services rendered", i.e., the car salesman = showing the car, doing the paperwork the results in the sale; lawncare service = trimming your lawn, applying weed killer, fertilizer, installing a sprinkler system, etc., but one generally always results in moving product while the other may not.

Now, to be fair, waiters and waitresses do "move" product - food and drink - but their job isn't to sell it to the customer. He or she is merely providing the customer with a list of options from which to choose and brings those items to the customer. The actually "sale" comes at the end of the meal when the customer pays the bill.

That's the difference.

"A fair exchange ain't no robbery."
 
I think you're confusing "productivity" with "services rendered"

Sorry, I think you might be confusing my response. I was talking about the previous poster's assertion that he doesn't think gifts should be taxable. Gifts and tips are different in my opinion.
 
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