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Should a convicted violent felon be allowed to own guns after release from prison?

Violent Felons have a 2nd Amendment Right Y/N


  • Total voters
    21
  • Poll closed .
Re: Should a convicted violent felon be allowed to own guns after release from prison

Under our current "legal justice system" I have reservations about restoring all rights to a convicted violent felon.


First I'd prefer to reform the system, so that the incorrigibles are either executed or put away somewhere secure and unpleasant for life, while those felons who are fixable are incarcerated in rehabilitation facilities and are not released until there is solid evidence of real reform.

If that were how our system worked, then once released from custody I would expect the reformed felon to have all his rights restored to him.



Even under our current system, the rule against felons owning guns is something of a bad joke. I've known felons to re-arm themselves within 24 hours after release. Best to assume anyone you cut loose into society WILL re-arm himself if he chooses to do so. The fact that they can't legally buy from a dealer doesn't slow them down in the slightest.

This. If we had a decent system to begin with, there would be no need to treat felons the way we do in the first place.

The justification for denying felons their rights, these days, is the high rate of recidivism. But it has been proven over and over again than we can cut our recidivism down to a tiny fraction of what it is, if we focus on two things and two things only:
1. Can this person be rehabilitated?
2. If not, how do we keep the public safe?

Right now, our justice system is focused on vengeance, and it completely forgets to deal with how do we make people safer.

As another example of this stupid system at work, we shouldn't need a sex offense registry, because true rape and pedophilic criminals should never be released. The guy who streaked at a college football game shouldn't be charged with a sex crime. Voila, no need for a sex offense registry.

Lkewise, we shouldn't need to ban violent felons from doing anything, because they should either be rehab'ed or they should never be released. Voila, no more need to talk about their rights. They're either in prison or they're free.

The discussion we're having right now is a discussion about how we should work around a bad system. How about fixing the system instead?
 
Re: Should a convicted violent felon be allowed to own guns after release from prison

The definition of a right is that it cannot be forfeited.

You're thinking of priveleges.

Not specifically correct. A right is something that belongs to you naturally, but it can be taken away in a figuratively similar way to losing an arm. Just putting someone in prison already loses them a lot of rights, although they can be restored later.

Privileges are earned and/or bestowed.
 
Re: Should a convicted violent felon be allowed to own guns after release from prison

You'd have to probably triple the budget for corrections and incarcerate far more people for life then you and others are willing to pay for; its a nice utopian dream to believe those who shouldn't have their rights restored should just forever remain incarcerated but its just not the reality.

Years ago CA's supreme court abolished the death penalthy and in about 10 years death row inmates were showing up for parole hearings and getting paroled. The people restored the death penalty and while it rarely happens those sentenced to it never come up for parole - at least.

There are already 5-10 posts on this thread about "what" the system should be - I suppose by many that don't want to admit rights should not be restored to violent felons who are released.


This. If we had a decent system to begin with, there would be no need to treat felons the way we do in the first place.

The justification for denying felons their rights, these days, is the high rate of recidivism. But it has been proven over and over again than we can cut our recidivism down to a tiny fraction of what it is, if we focus on two things and two things only:
1. Can this person be rehabilitated?
2. If not, how do we keep the public safe?

Right now, our justice system is focused on vengeance, and it completely forgets to deal with how do we make people safer.

As another example of this stupid system at work, we shouldn't need a sex offense registry, because true rape and pedophilic criminals should never be released. The guy who streaked at a college football game shouldn't be charged with a sex crime. Voila, no need for a sex offense registry.

Lkewise, we shouldn't need to ban violent felons from doing anything, because they should either be rehab'ed or they should never be released. Voila, no more need to talk about their rights. They're either in prison or they're free.

The discussion we're having right now is a discussion about how we should work around a bad system. How about fixing the system instead?
 
Re: Should a convicted violent felon be allowed to own guns after release from prison

You'd have to probably triple the budget for corrections and incarcerate far more people for life then you and others are willing to pay for; its a nice utopian dream to believe those who shouldn't have their rights restored should just forever remain incarcerated but its just not the reality.

Years ago CA's supreme court abolished the death penalthy and in about 10 years death row inmates were showing up for parole hearings and getting paroled. The people restored the death penalty and while it rarely happens those sentenced to it never come up for parole - at least.

There are already 5-10 posts on this thread about "what" the system should be - I suppose by many that don't want to admit rights should not be restored to violent felons who are released.

Not at all. Our costs would drop dramatically, because we'd have far fewer people in prison.

It's not a utopian dream. It is the practice of many different countries for decades with quite a bit of success. America, once again, is behind the curve, and therefore maintains the highest prison population in the developed world. And we spend more to maintain it than we do on education.
 
Re: Should a convicted violent felon be allowed to own guns after release from prison

Not enough choices. depends on the felony and the record
 
Re: Should a convicted violent felon be allowed to own guns after release from prison

That is an opinion without fact.


Not at all. Our costs would drop dramatically, because we'd have far fewer people in prison.

It's not a utopian dream. It is the practice of many different countries for decades with quite a bit of success. America, once again, is behind the curve, and therefore maintains the highest prison population in the developed world. And we spend more to maintain it than we do on education.
 
Re: Should a convicted violent felon be allowed to own guns after release from prison

That is an opinion without fact.

No, it isn't. You just don't really care about the facts.
 
Re: Should a convicted violent felon be allowed to own guns after release from prison

Not enough choices. depends on the felony and the record

I forgot to set my airplane tray in its upright and locked position, which is in fact a felony. Can I has the means to defend myself?
 
Re: Should a convicted violent felon be allowed to own guns after release from prison

I forgot to set my airplane tray in its upright and locked position, which is in fact a felony. Can I has the means to defend myself?

I find that hard to believe that is a felony
 
Re: Should a convicted violent felon be allowed to own guns after release from prison

I find that hard to believe that is a felony

I find it hard to believe urinating outdoors near a school makes you a registered sex offender, but it does.
 
Re: Should a convicted violent felon be allowed to own guns after release from prison

I forgot to set my airplane tray in its upright and locked position, which is in fact a felony. Can I has the means to defend myself?

Not until you master subject-verb agreement.:mrgreen:
 
Re: Should a convicted violent felon be allowed to own guns after release from prison

I find it hard to believe urinating outdoors near a school makes you a registered sex offender, but it does.

that's not a felony though

and in some cases that is true

the difference is is how long the registration lasts
 
Re: Should a convicted violent felon be allowed to own guns after release from prison

It is really sad when someone thinks their opinion is factual and can't back it up. You present a hypothetical not a reality, but I understand some people live in the hypothetical realities - most of them are called progressives.


No, it isn't. You just don't really care about the facts.
 
Re: Should a convicted violent felon be allowed to own guns after release from prison

It is really sad when someone thinks their opinion is factual and can't back it up. You present a hypothetical not a reality, but I understand some people live in the hypothetical realities - most of them are called progressives.

Oh, I can, it's just that someone who denies things that are so well-known as to be baseline knowledge aren't usually worth it.

But for any lurkers, I'll start with some basic stuff that didn't take up too much of my time.

"We want to build them up, give them confidence through education and work and have them leave as better people." Countries track recidivism rates differently, but even an imperfect comparison suggests the Norwegian model works. Within two years of their release, 20% of Norway's prisoners end up back in jail. In the U.K. and the U.S., the figure hovers between 50% and 60%. Of course, a low level of criminality gives Norway a massive advantage. Its prison roll lists a mere 3,300, or 69 per 100,000 people, compared with 2.3 million in the U.S., or 753 per 100,000 — the highest rate in the world.
Norway's Halden Fengsel Prison: Humane Rehab for Inmates - TIME

The study indicates that even small improvements in medical care could significantly reduce recidivism. “What happens inside jails and prisons does not stay inside jails and prisons,” the commission concludes, since 95% of inmates are eventually released back into society, ill-equipped to lead productive lives. Given the dramatic rise in incarceration over the past decade, public safety is threatened unless the corrections system does in fact “correct” rather than simply punish.
U.S. Prisons Overcrowded and Violent, Recidivism High | Infoplease.com
 
Re: Should a convicted violent felon be allowed to own guns after release from prison

The 2nd Amendment does not ban a convicted felon of any kind from owning a gun, but most states do. In fact the Federal Government does by statute. Should this be the law of the land or as the extreme gun right advocates say should a person released from prison, completing parole, and becoming a part of society have a right to keep and bear arms simply because the constitution doesn't say they can't?

It's not that the Constitution says anyone can't own a firearm. What the Constitution says is that government may not prohibit anyone from owning a firearm. The people (which includes those with past criminal histories) have a right to keep and bear arms, and government is forbidden from infringing this right. Nothing in the Constitution even suggests that government has any authority to discriminate against any free citizens for any reason, by denying them this right.
 
Re: Should a convicted violent felon be allowed to own guns after release from prison

Apply the facts of "Norway" to the United States is a pathetic attempt to justify your beliefs - and they are just beliefs. They don't have the immigration, violence, and culture we do in America - not even close. I will gant you one thing - if we had less people in prison it would cost less - I think you could verifiy that as a fact. However your justification for fewer people in prison is what you can't prove - that rehabilitating people is even remotely possible en mass. I think there are people capable of rehabilitating, but then there are too many who are not.

Did you even know 16% of the US Adult Population in prison has been diagnosed as "mentally ill?" Did you know that means almost 500,000 mentally ill people who's behavior can easily become criminal reside in our prison system and I will disagree with your assertion they can be rehabilitated or cured. They can be managed but only in a locked facility - recidivism rates for them - do you know the rate? I doubt you do - I'm going to help you - its in the high 90's.

Oh, I can, it's just that someone who denies things that are so well-known as to be baseline knowledge aren't usually worth it.

But for any lurkers, I'll start with some basic stuff that didn't take up too much of my time.


Norway's Halden Fengsel Prison: Humane Rehab for Inmates - TIME


U.S. Prisons Overcrowded and Violent, Recidivism High | Infoplease.com
 
Re: Should a convicted violent felon be allowed to own guns after release from prison

When I read what you wrote I hear by brother the libertarian 9/11 truther. He also thinks that if that debt is illegal, and that our government's money is not legal. The way of life we enjoy in this country is thanks to people who ignore those thoughts and do the right thing for the masses.

We have banned many guns in America. We have restricted many more. We have stopped felons from obtaining them. We have even stopped some with misdemeanors of various kinds from possessing, owning or having a gun. You may like it - but its the reality. And as I posted in another response to you - its a reality I would bet money you live with in your daily life? Hence you accept it - you just shout a different tune on a forum - a tune that no one cares to hear and no one is going to follow.


It's not that the Constitution says anyone can't own a firearm. What the Constitution says is that government may not prohibit anyone from owning a firearm. The people (which includes those with past criminal histories) have a right to keep and bear arms, and government is forbidden from infringing this right. Nothing in the Constitution even suggests that government has any authority to discriminate against any free citizens for any reason, by denying them this right.
 
Re: Should a convicted violent felon be allowed to own guns after release from prison

Apply the facts of "Norway" to the United States is a pathetic attempt to justify your beliefs - and they are just beliefs. They don't have the immigration, violence, and culture we do in America - not even close. I will gant you one thing - if we had less people in prison it would cost less - I think you could verifiy that as a fact. However your justification for fewer people in prison is what you can't prove - that rehabilitating people is even remotely possible en mass. I think there are people capable of rehabilitating, but then there are too many who are not.

Where did I ever say you could take a carbon copy of the Norway system and plunhk it in the US? Oh, yeah, I didn't.

However, it does demonstrate a working model. There's a dozen such models in a bunch of different countries with different factors in play.

You simply wish to deny the reality that our system of vengeance doesn't work, because that forces you to admit it is indeed a system of vengeance that you support.

Did you even know 16% of the US Adult Population in prison has been diagnosed as "mentally ill?" Did you know that means almost 500,000 mentally ill people who's behavior can easily become criminal reside in our prison system and I will disagree with your assertion they can be rehabilitated or cured. They can be managed but only in a locked facility - recidivism rates for them - do you know the rate? I doubt you do - I'm going to help you - its in the high 90's.

Yes, I did know that.

However, you're wrong again. Most of these people have never been treated, and were arrested on drug charges or something minor like that. The reason they keep going back is because no one ever recommends treatment, despite knowing they're mentally ill.

The overwhelming majority of people in our prisons are not violent. The overwhelming majority of the mentally ill in our prisons have never been given treatment.
 
Re: Should a convicted violent felon be allowed to own guns after release from prison

FAIL x 2

You did bring up Norway to demonstrate your working model, your utopia as you tried to make believe could be real for America. You even did so twice and once after trying to play funny word games with it. You don't have a working model in America do you? So run off to a socialist utopia of Norway and say see - it can work - which is BS because they don't compare to America.

x 2 is because in prison mentally ill are granted mental health care. In fact there are judges that sentence the mentally ill to prison because they know the people will get care there; and outside of prison they don't. You brought up the pedophile should never get out - I agree - but one could argue the same for the mentally ill. They can't be trusted to continue life long required treatment outside the prison environment. Sure you could create mental prisons and keep them there - we did that - called the assylums and abandoned it long ago because of how horrible they were. Looks like strike 3 there - a model tried and failed.


Where did I ever say you could take a carbon copy of the Norway system and plunhk it in the US? Oh, yeah, I didn't.

However, it does demonstrate a working model. There's a dozen such models in a bunch of different countries with different factors in play.

You simply wish to deny the reality that our system of vengeance doesn't work, because that forces you to admit it is indeed a system of vengeance that you support.



Yes, I did know that.

However, you're wrong again. Most of these people have never been treated, and were arrested on drug charges or something minor like that. The reason they keep going back is because no one ever recommends treatment, despite knowing they're mentally ill.

The overwhelming majority of people in our prisons are not violent. The overwhelming majority of the mentally ill in our prisons have never been given treatment.
 
Re: Should a convicted violent felon be allowed to own guns after release from prison

The 2nd Amendment does not ban a convicted felon of any kind from owning a gun, but most states do. In fact the Federal Government does by statute. Should this be the law of the land or as the extreme gun right advocates say should a person released from prison, completing parole, and becoming a part of society have a right to keep and bear arms simply because the constitution doesn't say they can't?

Violent offenders, especially especially those convicted of murder, rape, assault with a deadly weapon and acts of treason should not.

However, I feel that if a person has served their time for any non-violent felony, and has maintained a clean record for a specified amount of times, that person should have their conviction expunged, and all rights restored, including Second Amendment rights.
 
Re: Should a convicted violent felon be allowed to own guns after release from prison

The 2nd Amendment does not ban a convicted felon of any kind from owning a gun, but most states do. In fact the Federal Government does by statute. Should this be the law of the land or as the extreme gun right advocates say should a person released from prison, completing parole, and becoming a part of society have a right to keep and bear arms simply because the constitution doesn't say they can't?

In our current system, I would say no, a convicted violent felon should not keep his second amendment rights. However, I really feel like if these people are considered too dangerous to own guns, they shouldn't be released in the first place, and if they're considered safe enough to release into the general population, there shouldn't be a problem with them owning guns.
 
Re: Should a convicted violent felon be allowed to own guns after release from prison

Violent offenders, especially especially those convicted of murder, rape, assault with a deadly weapon and acts of treason should not.

I'm curious why you include treason, since it's not generally a violent offense and doesn't generally involve guns.
 
Re: Should a convicted violent felon be allowed to own guns after release from prison

I'm curious why you include treason, since it's not generally a violent offense and doesn't generally involve guns.

A person who commits and act of treason forfeits all rights as an American citizen.
 
Re: Should a convicted violent felon be allowed to own guns after release from prison

A person who commits and act of treason forfeits all rights as an American citizen.

Where are you getting that from? None of our laws say anything about someone guilty of treason losing all rights as an American citizen.
 
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