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Should we open the borders?

Should We open the borders?


  • Total voters
    60
  • Poll closed .
That's called being a follower.

No, it's called operating from a common reality. Sorry if you can't understand that.

Again, we're not talking about my business. For the record, I don't own a business, and the one I work for doesn't employ illegals. Although, I shouldn't have to tell you that. We should be able to have a debate without all the personal crap.

I apologise, I thought you had said you had your own business, but looking back I see you made it a hypothetical. My comments stand for your hypothetical business. And no, even your hypothetical business shouldn't be hiring illegals.

The brass tacks are, some of what you say you want, exists already, you just have some nebulous idea it should be "looser" somehow (though that's not possible without just openning the border and you say you don't want that). The parts you want that don't already exist, don't for good reasons that most of us posting here recognise.
 
If they're working, they're not on government assistance.

Owned.

:lamo Wrong. Many people that are working for minimum wage are on government assistance. Just because you're working does not mean that you are living without government assistance.
 
I think the real question is, "Do our great corporations really need them?" Can they be useful? I think so. We on the far right need to get our lobby efforts going to make sure that they don't get any benefits from the government until they are a full citizen, and most importantly are exempt from minimum wage, health benefits, even OSHA compliance. We can use this to drive down the costs of wages and costs of doing business so we can make as much profit as possible in order to make a better standard of living for those who deserve it. Let's face it, the minimum wage is making us less competitive in the global free market. Will it cost some American's their job if we take it down? Sure it will, but first, who cares, and second, there are jobs all over the world. If you are not good enough for our great corporations, then try China's. If you can't offer something better to our great corporations than these poor immigrants, that's your problem. Fix it yourself.
 
No, it's called operating from a common reality. Sorry if you can't understand that.



I apologise, I thought you had said you had your own business, but looking back I see you made it a hypothetical. My comments stand for your hypothetical business. And no, even your hypothetical business shouldn't be hiring illegals.

The brass tacks are, some of what you say you want, exists already, you just have some nebulous idea it should be "looser" somehow (though that's not possible without just openning the border and you say you don't want that). The parts you want that don't already exist, don't for good reasons that most of us posting here recognise.

You know, following the herd is not always the right way to go. Just assess the situation based on its merits. If we bring in more people who are productive, that will benefit society. It has worked for us in the past. There is no reason it wouldn't work for us today.
 
You have to admit, that's part of the equation. Nobody would complain if a bunch of blond hair, blue eyed, English speaking Canadians were crossing the border en masse.


If they brought millions of dollars worth of drugs and killed hundreds or even thousands of people to protect their illegal enterprise, we still wouldn't want them here. And many illegal aliens are near impossible to communicate with without a translator. If they did speak English, it would be nice, but it wouldn't fix the other problems. While it's true that most illegal aliens are poor folks in search of work, they bring with them murderers and drug lords. Opening the boarders wouldn't fix that problem, but enforcing already existing laws on illegals would help.

And it's not about racism. Honestly I wouldn't have much of a problem with illegals coming over and taking jobs from the people here by offering to work for less than they would if it weren't for the fact that nearly a quarter of them are fleeing from the law to begin with. That was how the free market was supposed to work; if you won't offer to work for cheaper than the competition's price, you can look for work elsewhere. But no, it's not because their brown, it's because they carry a crime wave with them and it's very hard to trace them because the U.S. government doesn't know they exist.
 
I say we open the borders and open our houses ,take down no trespassing signs on your land, no more locked doors and windows and leave the keys in your car too. Why should anyone have the right to declare boundaries or property rights.:roll:
 
If they brought millions of dollars worth of drugs and killed hundreds or even thousands of people to protect their illegal enterprise, we still wouldn't want them here. And many illegal aliens are near impossible to communicate with without a translator. If they did speak English, it would be nice, but it wouldn't fix the other problems. While it's true that most illegal aliens are poor folks in search of work, they bring with them murderers and drug lords. Opening the boarders wouldn't fix that problem, but enforcing already existing laws on illegals would help.

And it's not about racism. Honestly I wouldn't have much of a problem with illegals coming over and taking jobs from the people here by offering to work for less than they would if it weren't for the fact that nearly a quarter of them are fleeing from the law to begin with. That was how the free market was supposed to work; if you won't offer to work for cheaper than the competition's price, you can look for work elsewhere. But no, it's not because their brown, it's because they carry a crime wave with them and it's very hard to trace them because the U.S. government doesn't know they exist.

That's like saying all Italians are in the mob, so we shouldn't have let in any Italian immigrants. The net benefit of immigrants is greater than the net cost.
 
That's like saying all Italians are in the mob, so we shouldn't have let in any Italian immigrants. The net benefit of immigrants is greater than the net cost.

Dude, your idea has been thrashed and trashed. Just admit that it's a dumb idea. :roll: Open borders is retarded.
 
Dude, your idea has been thrashed and trashed. Just admit that it's a dumb idea. :roll: Open borders is retarded.

My idea hasn't even been debated.

The only thing that's been "thrashed and trashed" is a straw man argument people keep attributing to me because they only read the headline, "Should we open the borders," and didn't read the text of the OP.

It just shows how lazy people are. Eye-opening and highly amusing.
 
We should abandon our silly and futile notion of trying to "seal the borders" and just "let the markets work," so to speak.

I think there should be two conditions that, if satisfied, should allow anyone and everyone to enter or exit the United States at will. First, do they have a job? If yes, then they are productive, and they should be allowed to stay. If not, is there someone willing to claim them as a dependent? Is there someone willing to feed, clothe, school them? If so, there is no reason to keep them out of the country. The second condition is that they don't have a criminal record.

Why not seal the border? Well, for one, futility. No matter what we do, people find ways to enter the country. So really, we're kicking and screaming, we're pouring countless resources in to fight a "problem" that is probably never going to be resolved.

Second, aside from pure xenophobia and/or racism, I haven't heard a good argument yet for why we should try to stem the tide of immigrants in to this vast country of ours. You have to admit, that's part of the equation. Nobody would complain if a bunch of blond hair, blue eyed, English speaking Canadians were crossing the border en masse. So I think we need to be mature and ask ourselves if xenophobia is really a good enough reason to literally build a fence between ourselves and our neighbors.

No. Population migrations are a natural phenomenon. It's been going on forever. Massive governments and their laws and walls are artificial phenomenon. Nature will find a way.

Obviously you haven't thought this through. What about medical examinations? You know there are diseases here in the United States that we have eradicated with the use of vaccination to the point that we no longer have to vaccinate for such disease, such as tuberculosis. Tuberculosis is a common disease in third world countries where vaccinations are not given. Tuberculosis is a highly contagious and deadly disease which can spread like wildfire.

That's just one. I will have others later on.
 
What some might over-look here is that these illegals work harder and longer with less pay for a reason.

They're slaves to the fear of being caught.

Fact is, here in Texas, most make damn good money while the native gets shut out.
 
We should abandon our silly and futile notion of trying to "seal the borders" and just "let the markets work," so to speak.

I think there should be two conditions that, if satisfied, should allow anyone and everyone to enter or exit the United States at will. First, do they have a job? If yes, then they are productive, and they should be allowed to stay. If not, is there someone willing to claim them as a dependent? Is there someone willing to feed, clothe, school them? If so, there is no reason to keep them out of the country. The second condition is that they don't have a criminal record.

Why not seal the border? Well, for one, futility. No matter what we do, people find ways to enter the country. So really, we're kicking and screaming, we're pouring countless resources in to fight a "problem" that is probably never going to be resolved.

Second, aside from pure xenophobia and/or racism, I haven't heard a good argument yet for why we should try to stem the tide of immigrants in to this vast country of ours. You have to admit, that's part of the equation. Nobody would complain if a bunch of blond hair, blue eyed, English speaking Canadians were crossing the border en masse. So I think we need to be mature and ask ourselves if xenophobia is really a good enough reason to literally build a fence between ourselves and our neighbors.

No. Population migrations are a natural phenomenon. It's been going on forever. Massive governments and their laws and walls are artificial phenomenon. Nature will find a way.

Another point. How would you track criminals? As it is now, because of illegal immigrants are undocumented, it is EXTREMELY difficult when they commit a crime to track them, as they usually return to their home country where we have no jurisdiction.

Here are some examples of this nonsense.

Crime victims of illegal aliens
 
That's like saying all Italians are in the mob, so we shouldn't have let in any Italian immigrants. The net benefit of immigrants is greater than the net cost.

No, we should get rid of the illegal Italian immigrants.
 
Obviously you haven't thought this through. What about medical examinations? You know there are diseases here in the United States that we have eradicated with the use of vaccination to the point that we no longer have to vaccinate for such disease, such as tuberculosis. Tuberculosis is a common disease in third world countries where vaccinations are not given. Tuberculosis is a highly contagious and deadly disease which can spread like wildfire.

That's just one. I will have others later on.

So we shouldn't interact with Mexicans because they're diseased? This is rich.

Why don't we ban people from going on vacation then? Can't have folks coming home with some crazy virus, can we?
 
Another point. How would you track criminals? As it is now, because of illegal immigrants are undocumented, it is EXTREMELY difficult when they commit a crime to track them, as they usually return to their home country where we have no jurisdiction.

Here are some examples of this nonsense.

Crime victims of illegal aliens

I'm talking about opening up legal immigration. The assumption is that the legal immigrants would be documented just like any American.
 
You know, following the herd is not always the right way to go. Just assess the situation based on its merits. If we bring in more people who are productive, that will benefit society. It has worked for us in the past. There is no reason it wouldn't work for us today.

There are pro's and con's to everything. Look at the bigger picture. In the past we had far less people in this country than we do today. The growth of an economy must be built up over time and not be overburdened or it will crash. That is one of the reasons that countries have immigration laws and why there are quota's (even if they are unofficial). Will allowing open borders or even easier access be good? Yes, on one level it will be. What about the other level? The level where an already overburdened economy gets even more burdened? It takes time to establish new buisnesses and it can often take multiple people to fill one position because not everything about a person can be put down on paper or found out about in one or two or even three interviews.
 
So we shouldn't interact with Mexicans because they're diseased? This is rich.

Why don't we ban people from going on vacation then? Can't have folks coming home with some crazy virus, can we?

Actually many visitors to the US have to pass a medical background check in order to enter the US legally.
 
There are pro's and con's to everything. Look at the bigger picture. In the past we had far less people in this country than we do today. The growth of an economy must be built up over time and not be overburdened or it will crash. That is one of the reasons that countries have immigration laws and why there are quota's (even if they are unofficial). Will allowing open borders or even easier access be good? Yes, on one level it will be. What about the other level? The level where an already overburdened economy gets even more burdened? It takes time to establish new buisnesses and it can often take multiple people to fill one position because not everything about a person can be put down on paper or found out about in one or two or even three interviews.

The idea is, if someone doesn't have a job for say 2 months, you deport them.
 
The idea is, if someone doesn't have a job for say 2 months, you deport them.

Umm...that is part of the problem right now as most illegals aliens that are in the US are in here on expired Visa's. How are you going to track them? Embed GPS tracking devices into their skin? We have a rather large country in which a person can quite easily disappear if they want to.
 
We should abandon our silly and futile notion of trying to "seal the borders" and just "let the markets work," so to speak.

I think there should be two conditions that, if satisfied, should allow anyone and everyone to enter or exit the United States at will. First, do they have a job? If yes, then they are productive, and they should be allowed to stay. If not, is there someone willing to claim them as a dependent? Is there someone willing to feed, clothe, school them? If so, there is no reason to keep them out of the country. The second condition is that they don't have a criminal record.

Why not seal the border? Well, for one, futility. No matter what we do, people find ways to enter the country. So really, we're kicking and screaming, we're pouring countless resources in to fight a "problem" that is probably never going to be resolved.

Second, aside from pure xenophobia and/or racism, I haven't heard a good argument yet for why we should try to stem the tide of immigrants in to this vast country of ours. You have to admit, that's part of the equation. Nobody would complain if a bunch of blond hair, blue eyed, English speaking Canadians were crossing the border en masse. So I think we need to be mature and ask ourselves if xenophobia is really a good enough reason to literally build a fence between ourselves and our neighbors.

No. Population migrations are a natural phenomenon. It's been going on forever. Massive governments and their laws and walls are artificial phenomenon. Nature will find a way.
At a forum where there are quite a number of liberals and libertarians, the poll still shows the great majority wants the borders closed, 55-10 at this point.

When ISPs post "legalization and citizenship" articles on their home pages, the general population reader commentary is more than 10-1 opposed to that and open borders.

We already have a population mismanagement crisis in our cities, where instead of putting a moratorium on building more homes and business buildings, cities are instead trying to emulate Manhattan, building to the sky, making it nearly impossible to walk down the streets it's so crowded, as city managers care more about the resultant increase in tax revenues than the quality of living of their citizens.

Left to their own devices, the "markets" would crush the quality of life from American cities, and overflow overcrowding into the country side, creating massive company buildings like the ones in China that employ a million people, complete with suicide nets to catch the many each day that can no longer tolerate that sardine-packed "living".

As it is, the 2010 estimate for the world's population by 2050, even with descending yet not projected to be negative population change rates, predicts that by 2050 the world's population will increase over the 2010 count by the combined 2010 populations of India and China, with America increasing by 85 million to 395 million people, and that's without open borders.

If America's borders were open to anyone, those being squashed by even worse over-population would throng here, creating Bangladesh-like poverty.

"Immigrants" is an emotionally laden term for many going back many decades, a term that is misused and abused today by both wings of the political spectrum to further their ideological agendas.

It is important not to get caught up in emotionalism when dealing with such a dire problem as today's population mismangement matters.

For the American quality of life to re-ascend post-recession, we need to set emotionalism aside and instead focus on smart thinking and with respect to quality of life liberty and justice for the members of our country: its citizens.

America must do right by its citizens first, or there is no reason to even have America, to have countries at all.

If other countries won't focus on and work to solve their population mismanagement problems, we should not be the ones codependently coddling their lack of effort by giving them a place to deposit their continuous overflow.

It is time for us to close the borders to the best of our ability, a task at which we can most definitely succeed if we make an effort, and to "encourage" illegals and their children to leave and return to their ethically-correct country of origin.

The only way we will get other countries to manage their populations is if we show that we are not only dedicated to managing our demographic resources for our citizens but that we will no longer tolerate other countries ignoring their own population mismanagement problems, that we also "encourage" those countries to solve their population mismanagement problems, no matter what culture or religion or corruption had historically blocked their way.

Our country's, indeed our planet's, resources of physical space and breathable air and hospitable climes and tillable soil and all the basics of people's needs is finite and dwindling.

Maintaining healthy boundaries is a foundational value for individuals, one that extends to groups of individuals, citizens, of a country.

We must do all that we can to maintain our healthy national boundaries if we, as the citizenry of America, are to continue to have hope for a quality of living for ourselves, our children, and their children, and to also thereby give other countries a model of success which they can emulate.

Keeping the borders closed, keeping our healthy boundaries intact, is an essential requirement of maintaining that quality of American living.
 
You've twisted my scenario again.

Either way. Is paying for an old lady's social services really the worst thing you can imagine? I'm about as right-wing as they come, but even I'm not going to deny a little old lady her food, shelter, and medicine.

As for young people, if they're here, they should be working. If they're not working, they shouldn't be here. However, if they can get a job in the United States, they should be allowed to take it.

Where is her Mexican pension, hmmmm? That's where she lived all her life, where is it? It's not right for people to expect something they never earned. I know all about this, because my parents were immigrants. The difference is they came here legally. They never mooched off the system. They got jobs and worked their asses off, without any language assistance, social services or any other nanny-state hook-me-ups. They couldn't speak English, so they had to learn (imagine that). They have been comfortably retired for many years now. I have no sympathy for cheaters. They cheat their way in, they cheat the American citizenry of tax dollars, and then expect to be rewarded for their deeds with amnesty. So save the heart-strings pulling stories about grandma. The minute Grandma sneaks over the border, she's a criminal.
 
The minute Grandma sneaks over the border, she's a criminal.

:lamo

angry-granny.jpg
 
Defining the legality of the immigrants is the subject of this debate.

If you come here through the set procedures and do it by the book, you are here legally. The question is whether we should even have a set of proper procedures for them to go through in the first place. I say we should because it makes it much easier to enforce laws if you have a file on everyone in the area, which I believe is a main reason that crime rates are higher in areas populated with large numbers of illegal immigrants. Guilty people don't get caught as easily. That is my opinion in a nutshell.
 
So we shouldn't interact with Mexicans because they're diseased? This is rich.

Why don't we ban people from going on vacation then? Can't have folks coming home with some crazy virus, can we?
Incoming:

United States immigration law requires immigrant visa applicants to obtain certain vaccinations (listed below) prior to the issuance of an immigrant visa. Panel physicians who conduct medical examinations of immigrant visa applicants are required to verify that immigrant visa applicants have met the vaccination requirements, or that it is medically inappropriate for the visa applicant to receive one or more of the listed vaccinations:

Hepatitis A
Hepatitis B
Influenza
Influenza type b (Hib)
Measles
Meningococcal
Mumps
Pneumococcal
Pertussis
Polio
Rotavirus
Rubella
Tetanus and diphtheria toxoids
Varicella

Vaccination Requirements for IV Applicants


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