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Should we open the borders?

Should We open the borders?


  • Total voters
    60
  • Poll closed .
We should abandon our silly and futile notion of trying to "seal the borders" and just "let the markets work," so to speak.

I think there should be two conditions that, if satisfied, should allow anyone and everyone to enter or exit the United States at will. First, do they have a job? If yes, then they are productive, and they should be allowed to stay. If not, is there someone willing to claim them as a dependent? Is there someone willing to feed, clothe, school them? If so, there is no reason to keep them out of the country. The second condition is that they don't have a criminal record.

Why not seal the border? Well, for one, futility. No matter what we do, people find ways to enter the country. So really, we're kicking and screaming, we're pouring countless resources in to fight a "problem" that is probably never going to be resolved.

Second, aside from pure xenophobia and/or racism, I haven't heard a good argument yet for why we should try to stem the tide of immigrants in to this vast country of ours. You have to admit, that's part of the equation. Nobody would complain if a bunch of blond hair, blue eyed, English speaking Canadians were crossing the border en masse. So I think we need to be mature and ask ourselves if xenophobia is really a good enough reason to literally build a fence between ourselves and our neighbors.

No. Population migrations are a natural phenomenon. It's been going on forever. Massive governments and their laws and walls are artificial phenomenon. Nature will find a way.

The words from this post make a hell of a lot more sense that the policies(dating from the dark ages) in effect today..
 
There is something called legal citizenship. I'm all for allowing more people to come in here legally, but I am definitely not for allowing our laws on the books to go unenforced.

As I already said, the legal route is crazy. I have to commit to a $1 million business investment and agree to hire at least 10 full time employees just to get a residency visa for a shot at eventually getting a citizenship. It's a terrible way to do business, and it doesn't even guarantee me a citizenship.
 
First, the government involvement in order to perform background checks (for criminal activity), verification of valid employment (not the bs of just saying they have a job), making sure they are paying taxes as an employee should, would far exceed what exists now in rounding people up after the fact, and attempting to prevent new illegal immigrants.

Put the onus on them. Make them do all the work. After all, they're motivated. You don't perform a background check, oh heavens no. You make them go to the Mexican (or whatever) government and get a voucher that they're clean. You make them get verification of employment or, if we're talking about somebody's grandmother, a legal voucher that someone will pay for their costs (food, medical, etc).


Second, not all illegal immigrants are coming from the south. Russians, Uzbekistanis, Jamaicans, Asians are coming on assorted Visas just to get here, and finding employment and staying long past the expiration of those Visas.

Illegal is the key here. I don't care where they come from, as long as they follow proper channels, such as a close family member did. Took 6 months to do so, but they did it the right way.

Good, I like Russians. Anyone willing to cross an ocean to get here is properly motivated.
 
Should we loosen the law, make it easier to get a visa, make it easier to become a citizen? Yes.
Should we just open the border? No.

I agree with this. There is a very serious threat south of our border with drugs and cartels and it would be extremely foolish to open borders with this problem. We need protection to keep as much of that threat out. Unless you want severed heads rolling around El Paso.
 
I'm for open borders with no welfare/free anything.

In theory I am for open borders. However, I just don't see it working if other countries don't open their borders as well.

Sent from my Nokia Lumia 920 using Board Express
 
As I already said, the legal route is crazy. I have to commit to a $1 million business investment and agree to hire at least 10 full time employees just to get a residency visa for a shot at eventually getting a citizenship. It's a terrible way to do business, and it doesn't even guarantee me a citizenship.

We aren't allowing anyone here legally pretty much because we already have an over abundance of people here illegally. It needs to be the other way around. My point is, we can discuss reforming the legal path to citizenship, but that is absolutely no excuse for having an open border and not enforcing any of our laws.
 
How about if we use this metric the other direction as well. If you are a long term leech on government programs you should be exported. We have people here who claim they can not find work while others are coming in to the country to work. From a numbers perspective it does not matter if it is the immigrant or the citizen that is government dependent. You have two people, one job, and one person who is a net loss to the country. So sure, let the guy who wants to work come on in as long as the guy who wants to sit on his ass and pull a government check has to leave.
 
Put the onus on them. Make them do all the work. After all, they're motivated. You don't perform a background check, oh heavens no. You make them go to the Mexican (or whatever) government and get a voucher that they're clean.

As someone who has spent a lot of time living in some of the most corrupt nations on earth, I'd like to point out the obvious floor in that plan. I agree 100% with everything else you said.
 
As I already said, the legal route is crazy. I have to commit to a $1 million business investment and agree to hire at least 10 full time employees just to get a residency visa for a shot at eventually getting a citizenship. It's a terrible way to do business, and it doesn't even guarantee me a citizenship.

Try Canada, though surprisingly from what we hear all the time, it's not any easier immigrating there. However, they do have this new program - "VIP Business Immigration Program, which allows immigrants with sufficient business experience or management experience to receive the Permanent Residency in a shorter period than other types of immigrations."
 
Try Canada, though surprisingly from what we hear all the time, it's not any easier immigrating there. However, they do have this new program - "VIP Business Immigration Program, which allows immigrants with sufficient business experience or management experience to receive the Permanent Residency in a shorter period than other types of immigrations."

The whole thing of compulsory investment without any guarantee of citizenship is dangerous no matter where you do it. There are lots of cases of people investing large sums of money into countries and then having their visas revoked (this is more of an issue in developing nations). I want to live in the US because I want the rights that would be guaranteed to me as an American citizen under the constitution. While it's possible for citizenships of naturalized US citizens to be revoked, the circumstances under which that could occur are not relevant to me and never will be so I don't care. Visas are different, they can be revoked for a variety of petty reasons, like accidentally driving from one state to another with something that would be legal in the first state but not the second.

If the EB-5 visa was a citizenship, I'd probably go for it despite my objections to the way it's structured. As it stands, I have to invest a million bucks and employ ten people just for the chance to apply for a citizenship after 5 years, which I might still get rejected for. A million bucks, ten staff, and I don't even get the right to vote :( (not that I'm into voting anyway, but it's the idea of the whole thing).
 
and most calls to open borders are rooted in trust fund babys with no job and no idea of the labor market............

Good thing no one is suggesting completely open boarders.
 
But in aggregate, the unemployment rate has not risen.

Aggregate isn't the only thing that matters, you seem not to understand that.

He's not saying we should ignore them, he's saying HE won't give them preferential treatment when it comes to employment just because they're Americans.

If you think about it, a lot of Americans get useless degrees that don't help them much later in life. The man has a point.

Great, let's not try making the work force more educated. Let's let ignorance and stupidity run rampant. I mean, sheesh. Bit of a slippery slope, there, but damn.

Sure, people get degrees that don't help them much later in life, but did you think they maybe learned something that influenced their decision to pursue a job elsewhere? For instance, an Economics major may not become an Economist, he may become a Financial analyst. That's not "directly related to his major" but his major certain can help his performance / behavior.
 
But in aggregate, the unemployment rate has not risen.
In aggregate, the temperatures in Missouri should support orange tress just like Florida. That doesn't stop them all from dying in the first hard freeze.
 
Why should Americans be entitled to such special treatment? If someone is smarter, hungrier, harder working, then they should be able to come in to this country and take the job. That's what keeps us on top.

We are a country of immigrants.
We are a country of LEGAL immigrants not illegal immigrants if someone wants to come here, they do it legally.
 
We have never been a country of immigrants. That's a myth. The native born have always been the majority.
Tell that to the American Indians.


But, in later times, I agree.
 
We should abandon our silly and futile notion of trying to "seal the borders" and just "let the markets work," so to speak.

I think there should be two conditions that, if satisfied, should allow anyone and everyone to enter or exit the United States at will. First, do they have a job? If yes, then they are productive, and they should be allowed to stay. If not, is there someone willing to claim them as a dependent? Is there someone willing to feed, clothe, school them? If so, there is no reason to keep them out of the country. The second condition is that they don't have a criminal record.

Why not seal the border? Well, for one, futility. No matter what we do, people find ways to enter the country. So really, we're kicking and screaming, we're pouring countless resources in to fight a "problem" that is probably never going to be resolved.

Second, aside from pure xenophobia and/or racism, I haven't heard a good argument yet for why we should try to stem the tide of immigrants in to this vast country of ours. You have to admit, that's part of the equation. Nobody would complain if a bunch of blond hair, blue eyed, English speaking Canadians were crossing the border en masse. So I think we need to be mature and ask ourselves if xenophobia is really a good enough reason to literally build a fence between ourselves and our neighbors.

No. Population migrations are a natural phenomenon. It's been going on forever. Massive governments and their laws and walls are artificial phenomenon. Nature will find a way.

Quite possibly the nuttiest thing I have ever read in this forum.
 
Tell that to the American Indians.


But, in later times, I agree.

When the first Europeans arrived in America, the North American Indians out numbered them. At the time the American Indian was native born. At no time in America's history have immigrants ever out numbered the native born. Immigrants have always been less than 10 % of the population. The vast majority of the colonist during the American Revolution were native born. I believe every signature on the Declaration of Independence was native born except for one or two.

My username "APACHERAT" has nothing to do with AH-64 Apache helicopters. I'm a Marine and Marines don't fly the AH-64. I picked this username back in 1996 when C-Span had a community forum. The reason was because I lived on the "Rez" for more than a few years. In fact two different reservations. Most American Indians (Native Americans) are not big fans or followers of the AIM (American Indian Movement) The AIM is nothing more than a radical leftist movement.

Most educated and knowledgeable Indians are aware that before the arrival of Europeans that their ancestors had one foot still in the stone age. There was no horses, beef (cattle) chickens, beer and whisky, or toilet paper.
 
No country has infinite resources able to sustain infinite population numbers. Certainly the USA doesn't. The people of the US have the right to expect its government to know who has come into our country, why they have come here, and where they are located. It doesn't know any of that about people who come here illegally. Starting with Reagan's amnesty in the 1980s (which I supported at the time), illegal immigration doubles everytime a president even whispers that word. In California alone, 70 hospitals and medical facilities have been forced to close because the enormous burden of providing "free" OB/GYN care to illegals... while being forbidden by law from even inquiring about their legal status. This is unacceptable.

And brings me to my next thought. We should amend the constitution to rescind the automatic citizenship rule. Made sense when we were nation-building in the 1800's and early 1900's (when nearly all immigrants came through Ellis Island and were processed). Does not make sense now, especially when "anchor babies" (yes, I know some people get uppity about the term, but that's exactly what it is) encourage illegals to give birth here to American citizens, which are then immediately afforded access to entitlements... otherwise known as taxpayer money. I'd rewrite the law to state that at least one biological parent must already be a citizen, by birth or naturalization.

Yes, we need to make it much easier for productive foreign nationals to enter the US legally, so they can work, pay taxes, contribute to the country. I'm all in favor of that. But first we need to control the borders and keep track of who is inside our own country.

I hadn't thought about it until reading your post, but I agree with you about rewriting the law. "Anchor babies" are creating a real crisis in hospitals in smaller communities.

As are you, I'm eager for those who will be productive citizens to have their chance. Totally. But they have to go through the same process that other immigrants have, and those who are here illegally need to be sent back. If they want to become citizens, they can then stand at the back of the line.

Linked from Drudge: Illegal immigrant charged with intoxication manslaughter in Harris County deputy
 
When the first Europeans arrived in America, the North American Indians out numbered them. At the time the American Indian was native born. At no time in America's history have immigrants ever out numbered the native born. Immigrants have always been less than 10 % of the population. The vast majority of the colonist during the American Revolution were native born. I believe every signature on the Declaration of Independence was native born except for one or two.
Most people don't think about the original Europeans not being "native" - I'm glad you're an exception. :)
 
We have never been a country of immigrants. That's a myth. The native born have always been the majority.

And it still is. :lamo

If every single person in Mexico came to the United States, the native born Americans would still be the majority. :2wave:

The US population is 350 million, the Mexican population is 100 million. :lamo
 
And it still is. :lamo

If every single person in Mexico came to the United States, the native born Americans would still be the majority. :2wave:

The US population is 350 million, the Mexican population is 100 million. :lamo

Well right now according to the Mexican government, 10% of Mexico's citizens are already occupying the United States.

Actually I think the number is a little higher than the Mexican or U.S. government want to admit.
 
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Well right now according to the Mexican government, 10% of Mexico's citizens are already occupying the United States.

Actually I think the number is a little higher than the Mexican or U.S. government want to admit.

I'm guessing 30%.
 
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