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Should we open the borders?

Should We open the borders?

  • Total voters
    60
  • Poll closed .
Peter Grimm said:
I can't help but think we're becoming Rome.

Roman citizenship was a privileged political and legal status afforded to freeborn individuals with respect to laws, property, and governance.

In the Roman Republic and later in the Roman Empire, people resident within the Roman state could roughly be divided and stratified into several classes: citizens, Latin Right holders, slaves, freedman, etc.

Citizenship, and the benefits that came with it, was a birthright, an entitlement. It was rarely earned.

I won't bore you with a history lesson, but when we talk about having "guest workers" and so forth, I can't help but be reminded of Rome's stratified class system.

America, to me, has always been about something different. This country has always seemed to stand for the ethic that, if you're willing to work hard and take some risks, you'll be rewarded on the merit of what you do. We don't have nobility or birthrights in America, at least, we didn't used to.

We're going down a road I'm not happy to be going down. We're slowly but surely becoming what Europe was before all the Americans left to come to America.



Get rid of the mindset that being born a "citizen" entitles you to anything more than someone who wasn't born with that distinction. Distinguish yourself through your knowledge, your skills, and your work ethic. Compete. Win because you're better, not because you were born with a silver spoon.

That's what America is about.
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What you're giving is merely a snapshot of Rome from one time. Later, citizenship was extended in a more universal way, primarily for reasons related to expanding the tax base............................
 
MoSurveyor said:
No, I'm sure the drug cartels keep them out. Like Saddam, they don't like sharing any kind of power - unless, of course, they get paid well.
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Exactly. Put yourself in their shoes. If I'm a drug cartel king in Mexico, and some towel-wearing dude with sandals comes in to my barrio trying to build bombs and whatnot, I'm not exactly going to welcome him with open arms.

People tend to operate on the basis of self-interest, and it's against their self-interest to allow Muslim extremists in to their country.

The whole idea is nothing but a xenophobic scare tactic. Fear is the worst motivator.

I'd rather be driven by the opportunity that the influx of new workers, new ideas, etc could bring than be driven by the fear of xenophobia.
 
Peter Grimm said:
Well, roughly 30% of Mexico's total population currently resides in the United States illegally. That figure doesn't even count the millions who were granted amnesty in the 80's. How much "worse" can it get?
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Well those who go to the U.S illegally often spend their lives savings (sometimes traveling up from countries well to the South of Mexico) despite the fact that its hit or miss whether they will get in or even survive the journey. So i think its reasonable to expect that if these odds were taken away then the numbers would increase exponentially. Not to mention that many of those currently trying to get into Europe would change focus.
 
Bonzai said:
What you're giving is merely a snapshot of Rome from one time. Later, citizenship was extended in a more universal way, primarily for reasons related to expanding the tax base............................
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Amnesty? :lamo
 
Goshin said:
You could buy a nice house in 1980 for $50,000. The same house today costs you $200,00+.

So tell me again about all this benefit we're getting?
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Come on, you know better than this. The housing market is based on supply and demand, and a dollar today isn't the same as a dollar in 1980.
 
If the last 50 years had been spent pressuring 3rd world countries into improving standards of living instead of just using them as pawns in various global power struggles, there wouldn't be so many people wanting to leave their homes................
 
specklebang said:
•••Maybe I misunderstood but I thought I heard some strong anti-immigration sentiment. So I may have been responding to an invisible monster.:3oops:
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You just drank a little too much of the open borders koolaid which purports that to be against illegal aliens is to be against immigration and immigrants. It's a lovely meme but entirely false.

specklebang said:
•••Are you saying it is plausible to build a 2000 mile wall on the Mexican border? Can you amplify some middle-ground for me please?
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No, nor do we need to. With current law we could refuse pretty much all services to illegals, we do NOT do that now. The IRS could easily report the source and destinations of that income that is taxed and not claimed to the INS for investigation. Currently by law one must identify themselves if they are sending 10K to someone. Adjust that require to cover ANY amount sent to a foreign destination. Levy the fines, levy the fines, levy the fines. Enforce, enforce, enforce.

We have seen what happens as states start to enforce their laws against illegals - the illegals leave and go to a state that doesn't enforce.

specklebang said:
•••So why is that? Were thy all paid off? Did they all determine it was best not to address this? Were they all incompetent? I'd like to think there is some rationale to this.
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Honestly don't know. My speculation is that it's a papa knows best move, but there are so many [conspiracy] theories as to why presidents do this (we're not the first to notice) that I find it hard to speculate.
 
Goshin said:
wooptee **** for you.

In my youth I watched the textile industry of the South collapse and get sent overseas. I watched as millions of people lost good-paying jobs and ended up working for peanuts, or on welfare, or losing their homes. The economy in many parts of the south has STILL not recovered.
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The economy is better today than it was in 1980. Yes, there are some people who fail to adapt with the changing times, and those people get left behind. It has always been that way, though. Actually, the unemployment rate has been relatively unchanged for the past 50 years.


Goshin said:
Next we should let those Ph.D engineers in India who make $5,000 a year compete with American engineers accustomed to making $100,000 a year or more...
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That's not some far-off, fanciful idea you have there. We're already doing this. My company just opened up an engineering competency center in India where we've hired something like 2000 full-time engineers. I see nothing wrong with that. In fact, those engineers should be allowed to immigrate to the USA so they can work more closely with us. It would make our company more efficient.
 
Peter Grimm said:
Come on, you know better than this. The housing market is based on supply and demand, and a dollar today isn't the same as a dollar in 1980.
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Is a dollar today worth $4 1980USD?

It's lost a lot of value but not that much. And you're not taking into account that concrete masons were making $10-20/hr in 1980 and now get paid 7/hr in many cases, and the dollar devaluation THERE. So if labor costs (always a big chunk of expenses) have gone down so much, why are houses priced beyond the reach of nearly half the populace?
 
Peter Grimm said:
The economy is better today than it was in 1980. Yes, there are some people who fail to adapt with the changing times, and those people get left behind.




That's not some far-off, fanciful idea you have there. We're already doing this. My company just opened up an engineering competency center in India where we've hired something like 2000 full-time engineers. I see nothing wrong with that. In fact, those engineers should be allowed to immigrate to the USA so they can work more closely with us. It would make our company more efficient.
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When you get fired in favor of an immigrant engineer who is willing to work for less than half what you make, let me know if you're still so enthused.


A lot of folks around here have experienced this in their jobs.
 
Bonzai said:
If the last 50 years had been spent pressuring 3rd world countries into improving standards of living instead of just using them as pawns in various global power struggles, there wouldn't be so many people wanting to leave their homes................
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Likewise if instead of invading our country illegally the last 50 years, the illegals had stayed in their host country and put in the work perhaps their host countries wouldn't be such ****holes.
 
Peter Grimm said:
Amnesty? :lamo
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No. My point, listen up and listen carefully, Rome evolved from the stratified society of the Republic to the more democratic society of the late Empire, just as the heavily stratified society of mid 1800s America evolved into the more democratic society we have today..................
 
Peter Grimm said:
The economy is better today than it was in 1980. Yes, there are some people who fail to adapt with the changing times, and those people get left behind. It has always been that way, though. Actually, the unemployment rate has been relatively unchanged for the past 50 years.

.
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And what do you suggest they do, Mr Grim? Starve? Tell a 55yo man with two kids in college, who has worked at the mill for 36 years and doesn't know any other trade that he's got to get with the times... while being unemployed.
 
Bonzai said:
No. My point, listen up and listen carefully, Rome evolved from the stratified society of the Republic to the more democratic society of the late Empire, just as the heavily stratified society of mid 1800s America evolved into the more democratic society we have today..................
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Rome of the late empire was hardly democratic.
 
Goshin said:
And what do you suggest they do, Mr Grim? Starve? Tell a 55yo man with two kids in college, who has worked at the mill for 36 years and doesn't know any other trade that he's got to get with the times... while being unemployed.
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It's sad that some people are out of work, but what has changed? If you take a step back, stop looking at anecdotal evidence, and look at the big picture, you'll see that the unemployment rate today is no higher than it was 50 years ago. It's been pretty flat.

So that 55 year old man who lost his job at the mill.... his job went to another 55 year old man who had been looking for work. It's a zero-sum game.
 
clownboy said:
Likewise if instead of invading our country illegally the last 50 years, the illegals had stayed in their host country and put in the work perhaps their host countries wouldn't be such ****holes.
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Heads up.... your xenophobia is showing.
 
Goshin said:
Is a dollar today worth $4 1980USD?

It's lost a lot of value but not that much. And you're not taking into account that concrete masons were making $10-20/hr in 1980 and now get paid 7/hr in many cases, and the dollar devaluation THERE. So if labor costs (always a big chunk of expenses) have gone down so much, why are houses priced beyond the reach of nearly half the populace?
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Maybe concrete masonry isn't really worth 20 bucks an hour? I call that a market correction.

Why should I have to overpay someone for the value of their labor? Why is that sense of entitlement acceptable?

If you want to be paid 20 bucks an hour, provide a service that's worth 20 bucks an hour.
 
Peter Grimm said:
Maybe concrete masonry isn't really worth 20 bucks an hour?

Why should I have to overpay someone for the value of their labor? Why is that sense of entitlement acceptable?

If you want to be paid 20 bucks an hour, provide a service that's worth 20 bucks an hour.
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Fine. Your pay will now be lowered to the same pay of a person doing the same job in Bangaladesh. Happy? Good luck finding a cardboard box to live in cuz you DAMN sure won't be able to buy a house...
 
Peter Grimm said:
It's sad that some people are out of work, but what has changed? If you take a step back, stop looking at anecdotal evidence, and look at the big picture, you'll see that the unemployment rate today is no higher than it was 50 years ago. It's been pretty flat.

So that 55 year old man who lost his job at the mill.... his job went to another 55 year old man who had been looking for work. It's a zero-sum game.
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His job went to a 55yo man IN ANOTHER COUNTRY DAMMIT!

If you dont' give a flying **** about your fellow americans just say so.



I'd like to see if you're so frigging happy when it is YOUR OX BEING GORED.
 
No kool-aid involved. These are comments from this thread alone. Do you see why I said what I did?


Next we should let those Ph.D engineers in India who make $5,000 a year compete with American engineers accustomed to making $100,000 a year or more...

Have you even heard of drug cartels? Islamic terrorists?
Under 'king' obama the borders are virtually open.
No, no, and NO.
Decrease legal immigration, then resume at a slow pace.

t's our country, we ought to come first. If these people are so hungry for success, why can't they stay where they are and make it there?

Zero USA immigration
Deport all current foreign criminals
it is 100% ILLEGAL for any foreigner to work in USA
All USA tech at collages is a national security concern, all foreigners are banned from USA education.
you will remember that 10+ people building the CHina bomb were educated in USA, besides the current crop stealing our jobs.


That or USA CITIZENSHIP is meaning less.

oh, and enforce SECTION 274 of the INA to jail all the traitors that support "open borders" for supporting and encouraging
illegals in USA.

When e US CITIZENS can get a job in mexico, japan, CHina, and all the other places. THEN you can have your BS non-existant nation state.

But see when I was in Mexico, they deported the PROSTITUTES that were foreigners and replaced them with Mexicans..............now that is job security

Becasue it is ILLEGAL for any foreigner to work in mexico at ALL

No. There should be a moratorium on immigration at least until every American who wants a job or education can get one. There should be no more work or student visas issued until we have full employment for our young people (~18-25) who are suffering the most from our current economic predicament.



clownboy said:
You just drank a little too much of the open borders koolaid which purports that to be against illegal aliens is to be against immigration and immigrants. It's a lovely meme but entirely false.



.
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Goshin said:
His job went to a 55yo man IN ANOTHER COUNTRY DAMMIT!

If you dont' give a flying **** about your fellow americans just say so.



I'd like to see if you're so frigging happy when it is YOUR OX BEING GORED.
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No, his job went to another American. That's why the unemployment rate hasn't gone up.

But, a human being is a human being. I don't value an American any higher than I value a Mexican or a Kenyan or a Russian. A person is a person.
 
Peter Grimm said:
No, his job went to another American. That's why the unemployment rate hasn't gone up.

But, a human being is a human being. I don't value an American any higher than I value a Mexican or a Kenyan or a Russian. A person is a person.
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No, HIS JOB WENT TO A PERSON IN ANOTHER COUNTRY, THAT IS WHAT OUTSOURCED MEANS.


I'm so happy for you that you're a Citizen Of The World now.... I guess we can just shut our government down and let the UN run our lives, huh? If we don't give a **** about protecting American interests then we damn sure don't need our own personal government!
 
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