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Should we open the borders?

Should We open the borders?


  • Total voters
    60
  • Poll closed .
You're coming from the place that Americans are entitled to those jobs (like picking fruit or mowing lawns). Nobody is entitled to anything. That's not what America is about.

The generations of immigrants that have come here have always come because this is the land of opportunity. We didn't give preferential treatment to those who came on the Mayflower.

Nonsense, citizens are entitled to the benefits of the society they are citizens of. Non-citizens are not.

It's the height of frivolity to claim that the immigrants who helped build this country, who came here to be citizens, to be Americans, have anything in common with the illegal aliens of the present.
 
Maybe ILLEGAL is the key word here.

How about LEGAL immigrants. Are they Cartel members or chronic drunk drivers? Those who go to the time and trouble to immigrate legally are more likely to be excellent citizens. So why be anti-immigration? How about being anti-ILLEGAL immigration?

There is no plausible way to "close the borders". There is just too much border. If you really don't want illegal immigrants, then it's time to issue National ID and require it for everything from renting a room, cashing a check, taking a plane, buying gas or eating in a restaurant. No papers, no service.

Have you noticed that not one administration has done anything whatsoever to reduce illegal immigration. Sheesh, Obama has had the most rigorous enforcement of all and you can see how well that has worked out.


Nonsense.

There is a virtual epidemic of drunken driving by certain categories of illegal immigrants, along with fatal car crashes in large numbers.

There's MS13, and the other South American drug cartels, who are already striking murderously at our own law enforcement across the border.


Do you even LIVE in the real world, here?
 
We should abandon our silly and futile notion of trying to "seal the borders" and just "let the markets work," so to speak.

I think there should be two conditions that, if satisfied, should allow anyone and everyone to enter or exit the United States at will. First, do they have a job? If yes, then they are productive, and they should be allowed to stay. If not, is there someone willing to claim them as a dependent? Is there someone willing to feed, clothe, school them? If so, there is no reason to keep them out of the country. The second condition is that they don't have a criminal record.

Why not seal the border? Well, for one, futility. No matter what we do, people find ways to enter the country. So really, we're kicking and screaming, we're pouring countless resources in to fight a "problem" that is probably never going to be resolved.

Second, aside from pure xenophobia and/or racism, I haven't heard a good argument yet for why we should try to stem the tide of immigrants in to this vast country of ours. You have to admit, that's part of the equation. Nobody would complain if a bunch of blond hair, blue eyed, English speaking Canadians were crossing the border en masse. So I think we need to be mature and ask ourselves if xenophobia is really a good enough reason to literally build a fence between ourselves and our neighbors.

No. Population migrations are a natural phenomenon. It's been going on forever. Massive governments and their laws and walls are artificial phenomenon. Nature will find a way.

Simply put too many people would come too quickly without adequate time for the infrastructure, economy, and housing system to cater for them. I had a friend who served with the Spanish army on the Spanish/Moroccan border in Ceuta (Spanish enclave in Morocco) and he said that people would literally hurl themselves at huge barbed wire fences in an attempt to get in to Europe. If people are willing to do that to get into whats actually a very poor country by first world standards think how many will come to the U.S if there are no restrictions whatsoever. Though thats not to say that I'm against loosening the restrictions.
 
Maybe ILLEGAL is the key word here.

How about LEGAL immigrants. Are they Cartel members or chronic drunk drivers? Those who go to the time and trouble to immigrate legally are more likely to be excellent citizens. So why be anti-immigration? How about being anti-ILLEGAL immigration?

There is no plausible way to "close the borders". There is just too much border. If you really don't want illegal immigrants, then it's time to issue National ID and require it for everything from renting a room, cashing a check, taking a plane, buying gas or eating in a restaurant. No papers, no service.

Have you noticed that not one administration has done anything whatsoever to reduce illegal immigration. Sheesh, Obama has had the most rigorous enforcement of all and you can see how well that has worked out.



If we threw the floodgates open like he's suggesting, we'd get the bad along with the good.
 
I don't think that is the proposal. I think we're speaking of opening the immigration system instead of capping it. We don't want or need the worthless. But anyone that will fit in and become a productive society member should be welcomed, processed and integrated.



If we threw the floodgates open like he's suggesting, we'd get the bad along with the good.
 
I don't think that is the proposal. I think we're speaking of opening the immigration system instead of capping it. We don't want or need the worthless. But anyone that will fit in and become a productive society member should be welcomed, processed and integrated.



All 6 billion of them?
 
Have you even heard of drug cartels? Islamic terrorists?
Under 'king' obama the borders are virtually open.
No, no, and NO.
Decrease legal immigration, then resume at a slow pace.

Do you actually believe there are islamic terrorists in Mexico?
 
If the blond-haired Canadians were taking jobs from Americans and pushed the pay for a concrete mason from $20/hr in 1985 to $7/hr in 2005, yes we WOULD be screaming.

I look at it from the other point of view. So the Mexicans took the cost of concrete masonry from $20/hr to $7/hr, thus lowering building costs, meaning we can have newer, nicer buildings.
 
Do you actually believe there are islamic terrorists in Mexico?
No, I'm sure the drug cartels keep them out. Like Saddam, they don't like sharing any kind of power - unless, of course, they get paid well.
 
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Despite your presumption of "American Exceptionalism" I seriously doubt that everyone in the world wants to move here.

Right here on this board I've learned that we have an evil president, that we kill our own citizens at will, our taxes are too high, gay people are tongue-kissing, our IRS has gone rogue, we don't protect our citizens and everybody will get a free phone at your expense. I'm surprised we don't have an emigration problem. Maybe a wall.....


All 6 billion of them?
 
A government that does not protect its own citizens from foreigners is no longer a legitimate government.

Do you want the majority of Americans working for fifty cents an hour like in some 3rd world countries?

Economic protectionism is a failed model. I think Americans can compete with anybody in the world.

I don't think we should fear competition from anybody. I think we should accept it as a challenge, and expect to win. That's how I approach it anyway.
 
I look at it from the other point of view. So the Mexicans took the cost of concrete masonry from $20/hr to $7/hr, thus lowering building costs, meaning we can have newer, nicer buildings.
Yeah, let's win that race to the bottom! :D
 
Nonsense.

There is a virtual epidemic of drunken driving by certain categories of illegal immigrants, along with fatal car crashes in large numbers.

There's MS13, and the other South American drug cartels, who are already striking murderously at our own law enforcement across the border.


Do you even LIVE in the real world, here?

You mean like the Italian mafia in the 1930's or the drunken Irish in the late 1800's?

There is nothing new under the sun here. Those waves of immigrants made America better today, as will this current wave of immigrants.
 
I look at it from the other point of view. So the Mexicans took the cost of concrete masonry from $20/hr to $7/hr, thus lowering building costs, meaning we can have newer, nicer buildings.



You could buy a nice house in 1980 for $50,000. The same house today costs you $200,00+.

So tell me again about all this benefit we're getting?
 
Maybe ILLEGAL is the key word here.

How about LEGAL immigrants. Are they Cartel members or chronic drunk drivers? Those who go to the time and trouble to immigrate legally are more likely to be excellent citizens. So why be anti-immigration? How about being anti-ILLEGAL immigration?

I think there are very few if any here who are anti-immigration. In fact, from my own view, I love immigrants and love what they bring to the mix.

There is no plausible way to "close the borders". There is just too much border. If you really don't want illegal immigrants, then it's time to issue National ID and require it for everything from renting a room, cashing a check, taking a plane, buying gas or eating in a restaurant. No papers, no service.

The first statement is effectively incorrect. There is middle ground between what we have now enforcement wise and what you suggest, that's what some of us have been calling for from the beginning. And it wouldn't take any more regulation or laws than exists right now (perhaps with a couple exceptions).

Have you noticed that not one administration has done anything whatsoever to reduce illegal immigration. Sheesh, Obama has had the most rigorous enforcement of all and you can see how well that has worked out.

You betcha I've noticed, as have we all. Have you noticed that the majority of the American public has always been behind enforcing our immigration laws where it comes to illegals? NAFTA, CAFTA, moves to globalize, all things the American people have been against yet every POTUS in my lifetime has ignored the people on these fronts.
 
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You are NOT describing the average illegal immigrant. You know that, right?

Immigration is a broad topic that covers a diverse cross-section of the world's population. You have, on the one hand, what basically amount to nomadic migrants from northern Mexico, and, on the other hand, a brain-drain convergence on he United States by the world's best and brightest.
 
Do you actually believe there are islamic terrorists in Mexico?


Holy **** bud it is KNOWN that terror suspects have crossed into the US via the Mexican border! Multiple cases!
 
Do you actually believe there are islamic terrorists in Mexico?

You do know that just because people come in from Mexico doesn't mean they are permanent residents of Mexico, right?
 
Immigration is a broad topic that covers a diverse cross-section of the world's population. You have, on the one hand, what basically amount to nomadic migrants from northern Mexico, and, on the other hand, a brain-drain convergence on he United States by the world's best and brightest.



And you were ignoring the larger one in favor of the smaller one, but your proposal made no such distinction.
 
You mean like the Italian mafia in the 1930's or the drunken Irish in the late 1800's?

There is nothing new under the sun here. Those waves of immigrants made America better today, as will this current wave of immigrants.

Once again you're conflating immigrants with illegal aliens. Not the same beast at all.
 
Economic protectionism is a failed model. I think Americans can compete with anybody in the world.

I don't think we should fear competition from anybody. I think we should accept it as a challenge, and expect to win. That's how I approach it anyway.



wooptee **** for you.

In my youth I watched the textile industry of the South collapse and get sent overseas. I watched as millions of people lost good-paying jobs and ended up working for peanuts, or on welfare, or losing their homes. The economy in many parts of the south has STILL not recovered.


In 1980 you could make a GOOD living in home construction. Now most of those jobs are taken by illegals and pay miniumum wage and houses STILL cost four times what they cost in 1980.

Yeah we're winning just great.

Next we should let those Ph.D engineers in India who make $5,000 a year compete with American engineers accustomed to making $100,000 a year or more...
 
And if you do I'd rather see you fined and go to jail.

I can't help but think we're becoming Rome.

Roman citizenship was a privileged political and legal status afforded to freeborn individuals with respect to laws, property, and governance.

In the Roman Republic and later in the Roman Empire, people resident within the Roman state could roughly be divided and stratified into several classes: citizens, Latin Right holders, slaves, freedman, etc.

Citizenship, and the benefits that came with it, was a birthright, an entitlement. It was rarely earned.

I won't bore you with a history lesson, but when we talk about having "guest workers" and so forth, I can't help but be reminded of Rome's stratified class system.

America, to me, has always been about something different. This country has always seemed to stand for the ethic that, if you're willing to work hard and take some risks, you'll be rewarded on the merit of what you do. We don't have nobility or birthrights in America, at least, we didn't used to.

We're going down a road I'm not happy to be going down. We're slowly but surely becoming what Europe was before all the Americans left to come to America.



Get rid of the mindset that being born a "citizen" entitles you to anything more than someone who wasn't born with that distinction. Distinguish yourself through your knowledge, your skills, and your work ethic. Compete. Win because you're better, not because you were born with a silver spoon.

That's what America is about.
 
]I think there are very few if any here who are anti-immigration. In fact, from my own view, I love immigrants and love what they bring to the mix.
•••Maybe I misunderstood but I thought I heard some strong anti-immigration sentiment. So I may have been responding to an invisible monster.:3oops:

The first statement is effectively incorrect. There is middle ground between what we have now enforcement wise and what you suggest, that's what some of us have been calling for from the beginning. And it wouldn't take any more regulation or laws than exists right now (perhaps with a couple exceptions).
•••Are you saying it is plausible to build a 2000 mile wall on the Mexican border? Can you amplify some middle-ground for me please?

You betcha I've noticed, as have we all. Have you noticed that the majority of the American public has always been behind enforcing our immigration laws where it comes to illegals? NAFTA, CAFTA, moves to globalize, all things the American people have been against yet every POTUS in my lifetime has ignored the people on these fronts.
•••So why is that? Were thy all paid off? Did they all determine it was best not to address this? Were they all incompetent? I'd like to think there is some rationale to this.


I think there are very few if any here who are anti-immigration. In fact, from my own view, I love immigrants and love what they bring to the mix.



The first statement is effectively incorrect. There is middle ground between what we have now enforcement wise and what you suggest, that's what some of us have been calling for from the beginning. And it wouldn't take any more regulation or laws than exists right now (perhaps with a couple exceptions).



You betcha I've noticed, as have we all. Have you noticed that the majority of the American public has always been behind enforcing our immigration laws where it comes to illegals? NAFTA, CAFTA, moves to globalize, all things the American people have been against yet every POTUS in my lifetime has ignored the people on these fronts.
 
Simply put too many people would come too quickly without adequate time for the infrastructure, economy, and housing system to cater for them. I had a friend who served with the Spanish army on the Spanish/Moroccan border in Ceuta (Spanish enclave in Morocco) and he said that people would literally hurl themselves at huge barbed wire fences in an attempt to get in to Europe. If people are willing to do that to get into whats actually a very poor country by first world standards think how many will come to the U.S if there are no restrictions whatsoever. Though thats not to say that I'm against loosening the restrictions.


Well, roughly 30% of Mexico's total population currently resides in the United States illegally. That figure doesn't even count the millions who were granted amnesty in the 80's. How much "worse" can it get?
 
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