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Is Fascism Right Wing?

Is fascism left or right wing?

  • Left

    Votes: 18 20.2%

  • Right

    Votes: 46 51.7%

  • Neither

    Votes: 16 18.0%

  • Description sucks

    Votes: 9 10.1%
  • Total voters
    89
Quik said:
If we had a libertarian government then there would be no government favors to sell in the first place. Statism is a central requirement of corporatism. You can't have corporatism without statism.
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How do you get to a libertarian govt from here?

Answer the damn question.
 
What if...? said:
How do you get to a libertarian govt from here?

Answer the damn question.
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Lew Rockwells 30 day plan should suffice. My order would be a bit different.

I would first end all wars that America is currently involved in and bring all the troops home. Then I would slash all Department budgets by 50% for the first year. Remedial reading/writing classes would be set up for all the former bureaucrats who lost their jobs. This 50% slash would continue every year for 10 years.
 
Quik said:
Lew Rockwells 30 day plan should suffice. My order would be a bit different.

I would first end all wars that America is currently involved in and bring all the troops home. Then I would slash all Department budgets by 50% for the first year. Remedial reading/writing classes would be set up for all the former bureaucrats who lost their jobs. This 50% slash would continue every year for 10 years.
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And who is going to actually DO these things?

Our govts sponsors like things the way they are, they aren't going to pay for any campaigns for those who will upset the applecart. What they will.do is drown libertarian upstarts in cash and opposition research, or trick you guys with a bait and switch.
 
What if...? said:
And who is going to actually DO these things?

Our govts sponsors like things the way they are, they aren't going to pay for any campaigns for those who will upset the applecart. What they will.do is drown libertarian upstarts in cash and opposition research, or trick you guys with a bait and switch.
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I don't believe in using the political system. I saw what happened when liberty-minded folks tried. Ron Pauls campaign was a disaster. They will never allow someone like him to upset the established order.

Counter-economics - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Silk Road (marketplace) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
3D printing - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Black market - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Illegal drug trade - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I believe in counter economics. It's the best form of resistance and the safest. Individuals are free to pick and choose when and where to resist. Whether that means printing something the government says you can't print or smoking something the government says you can't smoke, or owning something the government says you can't own. The best thing is that the government can't monitor you 24/7 and so when and where you choose to resist and undermine the authority of the government is totally up to you. It's very liberating. It's like speeding or running a red light when nobody is on the road.
 
According to Konkin's pamphlet Counter-Economics:
The Counter-Economy is the sum of all non-aggressive Human Action which is forbidden by the State. Counter-economics is the study of the Counter-Economy and its practices. The Counter-Economy includes the free market, the Black Market, the “underground economy,” all acts of civil and social disobedience, all acts of forbidden association (sexual, racial, cross-religious), and anything else the State, at any place or time, chooses to prohibit, control, regulate, tax, or tariff. The Counter-Economy excludes all State-approved action (the “White Market”) and the Red Market (violence and theft not approved by the State).[3]
According to Konkin, counter-economics also allows for immediate self-liberation from statist controls, to whatever degree practical, by applying entrepreneurial logic to rationally decide which laws to discreetly break and when. The fundamental principle is to trade risk for profit, although profit can refer to any gain in perceived value rather than strictly monetary gains (as a consequence of the subjective theory of value).
Voluntary practices of counter-economics include:[4]
Arms trafficking
Bartering and alternative currency use
Being or hiring illegal immigrants
Drug trafficking
Smuggling
Subsistence farming
Tax evasion
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This is a good summary.
 
HumanBeing said:
Fixed your statement for you ;)
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Go learn what Communism is.

There is no state in Communism. Which tells you just how much the USSR failed in attempting to get to Communism. Class structured society where power is vested in the few is not a Communism society.
 
Cyrylek said:
Lenin and Mao - creators of the two most massively powerful totalitarian states in history are laughing and clinking glasses of - whatever they use in lieu of champagne in Hell: You can do whatever you want to these people - and they still will believe in your cheapest propaganda shots - the more illogical, the better.
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Really? You think they'd be laughing at what their states have become? What Mao and Lenin may have believed has not become their countries. Merely because I understand Communism (unlike 90% of this board) does not mean I support it. Intelligence is the ability to entertain an idea without accepting it. Unfortunately, a great many people here would not qualify as intelligent under that definition.
 
obvious Child said:
Go learn what Communism is.

There is no state in Communism.
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I've spent the past ten years living in Cambodia, helping survivors of communism move on with their lives. Communism is pure statism. There is nothing in a communist society other than the state and the people who serve it. The results are horrific.
 
HumanBeing said:
I've spent the past ten years living in Cambodia, helping survivors of communism move on with their lives. Communism is pure statism. There is nothing in a communist society other than the state and the people who serve it. The results are horrific.
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Merely because a state calls itself Communist does not make it so. I can call myself a Panda. Does that make me a panda? North Korea calls itself a Democracy. Do you believe that?

I'm not arguing that countries that call themselves Communist have lead to bad outcomes. But when we start defining Communism as anything a self proclaimed Communist nation has done, that results in very, very, very few countries, if any, not being Communist.
 
obvious Child said:
Merely because a state calls itself Communist does not make it so. I can call myself a Panda. Does that make me a panda? North Korea calls itself a Democracy. Do you believe that?

I'm not arguing that countries that call themselves Communist have lead to bad outcomes. But when we start defining Communism as anything a self proclaimed Communist nation has done, that results in very, very, very few countries, if any, not being Communist.
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Even in theory, it is still pure statism. There is no financial freedom or individual freedom of choice, everyone is part of the same integrated mechanism. It's the very definition totalitarian statism.
 
HumanBeing said:
Even in theory, it is still pure statism. There is no financial freedom or individual freedom of choice, everyone is part of the same integrated mechanism. It's the very definition totalitarian statism.
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First, there isn't an actual government in Communism. It's a loose democracy of the worker. Except that everyone votes the same way. It's completely idealistic and will never actually happen. Technically there is freedom of choice, but that everyone due to the transitions from Capitalism to Communism now makes the same choices.

I highly disagree with the whole define Communism by anything a self proclaimed Communist nation has done because it can make Switzerland Communist by definition. Which is insane.
 
obvious Child said:
Intelligence is the ability to entertain an idea without accepting it. Unfortunately, a great many people here would not qualify as intelligent under that definition.
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QFT. Unfortunately open minds with the ability to think critically and see and analyze both sides of an argument are few and far between. For the rest, there's a special Kool-Aid.
 
kenc said:
QFT. Unfortunately open minds with the ability to think critically and see and analyze both sides of an argument are few and far between. For the rest, there's a special Kool-Aid.
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It's not even that. Many people cannot even be bothered to go to the source and find out what it actually is about. I'm not asking for people to be able to fully see both sides, but at least don't start off with an overarching out of control bias.

People define Communism as a stratified class society where power is vested in the few, trades with the West, has private property laws and practices capitalism. That makes the USA Communist.

And they don't even think about what they just argued.
 
obvious Child said:
It's not even that. Many people cannot even be bothered to go to the source and find out what it actually is about.
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Why do that when they can get some nutjob's version right off of YouTube.
 
kenc said:
Why do that when they can get some nutjob's version right off of YouTube.
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Dude, you're quoting a self proclaimed 19 year old who is telling someone who has lived in several cultures and political systems over the course of the past couple of decades to "go to the source". News flash: I'm at the source, and I'm not a commie anymore. You should try following your own advice.
 
kenc said:
Why do that when they can get some nutjob's version right off of YouTube.
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To be fair, this goes both ways.

Partisans from both sides approach things from a "How can I ding the other side" rather than "what can be learned here, and what is the closest we can get to the truth?"

The IRS non-scandal is a perfect example of this.
 
obvious Child said:
To be fair, this goes both ways.

Partisans from both sides approach things from a "How can I ding the other side" rather than "what can be learned here, and what is the closest we can get to the truth?"

The IRS non-scandal is a perfect example of this.
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Relevant to the OP, I think most people think fascism is an ugly thing, but having lived in Italy for the last 13 years, and talking to many intelligent Italians, they have often said that fascism was a brutal system here, but it did actually provide a period of impressive economic growth relative to other parts of Europe. Many are calling for a dictator who will deliver economic growth to a country that has been stagnant, even declining, for a very long time. Go figure.

Anyway, there is going to the source, and then there is looking for real world examples of the political theories. So, communism is an interesting theory and a lot of people chose to get behind it, but in reality the end game of communism is out of reach because the middle game is not practical and tolerated by the people. In fact, the first few opening moves were pretty devastating as well. Fascism is pretty ugly in theory but can work in certain circumstances.
 
Indeed said:
In school, I was taught that fascism was not in fact right wing, but compared to American Government, it was very much left wing. Our history class taught that the Nazi party of Germany had a meeting with the Communist Party of Germany to discuss a number of things starting on what slogans would be and what category they would say they were. Fascists were very much left wing, but they looked like right wing extremists compared to the communists, so they decided to call the communists left wing and call the fascists right wing to avoid confusion.
Fascism is left wing because you cannot own a business or large home if you don't toe the line that the ruling party draws.. If you don't toe the line, they take your business and give it to someone who will. It is far right of either communism or socialism in that it allows private property at all. In socialism the government owns all the business and makes sure that everyone is paid equally, and in communism the gov't owns everything and makes sure that everyone has everything they need.
So fascism is far right of communism but still pretty far left of American conservatism. It's somewhere in the middle.
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First of all, whoever taught a class of students that BS should be fired.

Second of all, not really.

Fascism has some things in common with certain types of "right wing" (and there are many). But it also has some things with common with certain kinds of "left wing" (again, there are many).

And finally, when you get to a certain level of extremism, they're all pretty much the same thing. They may differ in their theoretical doctrine, but not as much as they would pretend, and the real-world results are usually pretty much the same.
 
cpwill said:
:) is that your way of saying that you have no actual method of response?

I realize it's popular to identify Fascism as right wing. After all, there wasn't really a conservative movement in America in the end of the 40's, so it was safe to associate them with it. Just like no one had ever been a eugenicist after 1944, suddenly no one had ever admired fascism, either.

Unfortunately, all those records are still around. Progressives in this country were very much on the same ideological wavelength as the fascists in Europe. It was and remains a left-wing ideology. The one poster on these forums honest enough to identify himself as a fascist is pretty much clear on this point - which is why his actual identifier reads "progressive".
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Which only makes him as deluded as yourself. Note I don't say 'dishonest', as I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt.

To suggest that Hitler was a champion of Socialism is, at best, laughable. So much so, that I would dearly love to be present at some highly publicised political event, where you make such a claim. The ensuing headlines might be even more amusing than the initial outrage.

Cyrylek said:
Sure, but who started "the whole revisionism thing", and when?

Why, indeed, the socially conservative, totalitarian, anti-capitalist, nationalist, militarist police state of the Fascist Italy is "right wing", and the EVEN MORE socially conservative, totalitarian, anti-capitalist, nationalist, militarist police state of the Soviet Russia is "left wing"?
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Italy is anti-Capitalist and Totalitarian? Odd then that it should exist as a Capitalist nation, existing within a larger Capitalist trading bloc, operating with a Liberal-Democratic constitution and political infrastructure. Nationalist and militarised? Too ambiguous to be definitive; certainly not conspicuously so. This sounds remarkably similar to claims among some Americans, of Europe as a Socialist entity. Both Italy and Russia are Republics.

As for the advent of Revisionism, I would submit that it existed in one form or another since the earliest origins of political debate. A complementary feature of ongoing discourse, as with historical dialogue itself.
 
Hey, maybe if we be good, brush our teeth, eat all our vegetables and pray real hard, the powers that be will demand that henceforth, the very foundations of political terminology shall be radically redefined, for the sake of fringe agenda.

Hell, why define America as a 'federal, presidential, constitutional republic' (Wiki). Why not call it a Monarchy?

While I'm at it, I now declare that America's economy is characterised by Feudalism.

Ya know, because I say so, and the accepted definitions don't apply all of a sudden.
 
NoC_T said:
Italy is anti-Capitalist and Totalitarian? Odd then that it should exist as a Capitalist nation, existing within a larger Capitalist trading bloc, operating with a Liberal-Democratic constitution and political infrastructure.
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Psst! Nothing escapes your incisive intellect, so I am forced to share a well-kept secret: the Fascist regime in Italy had ended - by any measure or definition - on April 28, 1945, when Benito Mussolini was executed.

I have no special illusions about the clowns who "do politics" in Italy these days - whether "right", "left", or the nauseating Beppe Grillo's "just plain nuts" - but Fascist they are not. None of them. Not even Alessandra Mussolini. The 20th century is over. Thank goodness for that.
 
Cyrylek said:
Psst! Nothing escapes your incisive intellect, so I am forced to share a well-kept secret: the Fascist regime in Italy had ended - by any measure or definition - on April 28, 1945, when Benito Mussolini was executed.

I have no special illusions about the clowns who "do politics" in Italy these days - whether "right", "left", or the nauseating Beppe Grillo's "just plain nuts" - but Fascist they are not. None of them. Not even Alessandra Mussolini. The 20th century is over. Thank goodness for that.
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You'll forgive my sarcasm, Cyrylek. I indulge it in good faith.
 
In terms of the British Freemasonry I would say neither in terms of Fascism's classic sense. Although it does have old colonial instincts and is most certainly bigoted particularly towards the Irish. It Sees itself as upper class, privileged, and royalist as opposed to belonging to any particular group. ie -Communist or -Nazi Certainly Right Wing though

I think Fascism is different in every country

I see Fascism as control and hatred with an indifference towards average people. You do not need a 'wing' per se for this politick
 
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