Is Fascism Right Wing?

Your history is all wrong.

If a Nazi even talked with a Communist, they would have been beaten up and run out.
As early as 1933-35 Communists were being put in death camps.

Left-wingers believe that government has a significant role to play in society. So in that sense they are similar. But the American left at least believes that the government's role is, among other things, to protect minorities from private oppression. Whereas fascists' goals, like the Nazis, for example, are often to have the government oppress and murder minorities. So in that way they are very very different.

Social conservatives are the closest we have to fascists in this country, because they believe in broad government power to advance their social goals. I think certain liberals might fall into the category as well, but I can't really think of a large liberal sect that pushes a platform that is seriously oppressive of anyone.

Strucker said:

At bottom, no. As they say, those on the wrong side of the gun don't care.

The very point of this thread is an attempt to revise reality so that some monstrous entity called "the Left" is to blame for every political badness.

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Well, that's just plain silly. If we are to use the cartesian grid common in most "what's your political persuasion" tests the answer to this question would be neither Right or Left but Authoritarian as opposed to libertarian ( not the party, obviously)

All political badness stems from the few trying to control the many, or the many trying to control the few. We all need to just learn to control ourselves. :smoking:

ChezC3 said:

Well, that's just plain silly. If we are to use the cartesian grid common in most "what's your political persuasion" tests the answer to this question would be neither Right or Left but Authoritarian as opposed to libertarian ( not the party, obviously)

All political badness stems from the few trying to control the many, or the many trying to control the few. We all need to just learn to control ourselves. :smoking:

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Hear, hear.

Indeed said:

...Our history class taught that the Nazi party of Germany had a meeting with the Communist Party of Germany to discuss a number of things starting on what slogans would be and what category they would say they were. Fascists were very much left wing, but they looked like right wing extremists compared to the communists, so they decided to call the communists left wing and call the fascists right wing to avoid confusion.

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Okay, I have to admit, this made me laugh pretty ****ing hard.

Anywho...no, you're so ****ing wrong it's goddamn adorable, and your wrongness is based in your absolute lack of knowledge of what divides the "left" and "right" wing groups.

In a tradionalist political science sense, Fascism is generally regarded as "right wing" to an utter extreme. Attempting to compare it as some kind of analog or similar thing to modern american conservatism would be like trying to compare a mid-major Basketball team with the Chicago Bulls of the 90's. It's an emotional bit of hyperbole used as a political bludgeon without regard to common sense.

Take the standard Nolan Chart that's often referenced, or just take the general mindset of it. I prefer it to the standard "left" / "right" idea. Everythings based off a two part scale in terms of Economic Freedom and Social Freedom (or the focus on community vs focus on individual).

Here's a general view of it



In this, Facism would be in the lower portion, probably in the bottom right portion of that section.

Here's a very interesting take on some of the various types of ideologies commonly thought about in the U.S. as well as the extreme ends for each side.

Krhazy said:

Left-wingers believe that government has a significant role to play in society. So in that sense they are similar. But the American left at least believes that the government's role is, among other things, to protect minorities from private oppression. Whereas fascists' goals, like the Nazis, for example, are often to have the government oppress and murder minorities. So in that way they are very very different.

Social conservatives are the closest we have to fascists in this country, because they believe in broad government power to advance their social goals. I think certain liberals might fall into the category as well, but I can't really think of a large liberal sect that pushes a platform that is seriously oppressive of anyone.

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When you look over the whole political agenda of Italian fascists and Nazis it becomes clear what they most resemble. They advocated central control of the economy and the monetary system, cradle to grave welfare, guaranteed employment, central control of labor unions, redistribution of land and other resources held by the previous ruling classes, and abolition of class differences. Corporations were allowed to continue to operate but had to follow the direction of the state with regard to what was best for the nation. Authority was invested in a leader with plenary powers to do whatever was necessary to correct the problems that both nations faced before the fascists came to power. Racism is held up as a key feature of fascism but didn't exist in Italian fascism until the Nazis allied with them. Militarism and nationalism were central to both Italian and German varieties but became strong features of the USSR as well eventually with 70% of resources going to the military even up to the end of the USSR.

By the time the Nazis came to power in Germany there were no actual conservatives anywhere to be seen except the monarchists and aristocrats who retained their roles in the military because of their expertise. These people had to toe the political line under pain of death.

LowDown said:

When you look over the whole political agenda of Italian fascists and Nazis it becomes clear what they most resemble.

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But again, this is no argument that they were leftists.

It's only an argument that the Right shares some perverse political inclinations.

Strucker said:

No. That's just a residue of the Hate-the-Left Cold War nonsense.

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not at all. Fascism was (falsely) popularly associated with the right wing throughout the Cold War.

Like the "People's Republic of China"?



Tells us nothing.

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On the contrary - both speak to intents. Peoples' Republic is just the nicer version of Dictatorship of the Proletariat.

cpwill said:

not at all. Fascism was (falsely) popularly associated with the right wing throughout the Cold War.

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That's why I said "residue."

In recent years, we've all seen some attempts to redefine history so that this thing called "conservatism" is pristine...at least theoretically; whereas some entity called "leftism" is always and inherently about the worst kinds of statist tyranny.

Now, I have elsewhere on this thread pointed out the fantastic tautologies that arise out of this self-indulgence.

Also the abhorrence of taking any sort of responsibility...why bother, when shouting "The Left!" will suffice?

Hell, we've got people saying that when the political Right, in power, acts in authoritarian ways (a not infrequent occurrance, I presume you'll agree)
...that it's because they're actually "leftists."

Meaning that right-wing political power simply doesn't exist, presumably...which rather changes the conversation into something else, I think.

Except that, according to many on the right, it does exist...as when Thatcher and a few other moral relativists praised Pinochet. The theme seems to be "a little too harsh [I assume they're speaking of mass murder, torture, et al]...but a useful and effective adherence to free market principles and a robust protection of social conservative values."

Well, it puts me in an odd posiiton to argue with conservatives that murder and torture are not strictly "conservative values"; but more to the point, Pinochet did not adhere to "free market principles." Killing your opponents, jailing socialist intellectuals and left-leaning peasants, and torturing union leaders is interference in the "free market," by definition. Big Government statism.

At any rate, you could, I suppose, say that everything bad about the man was his "leftism" which no one else has recognized; and that what was good about him--zero--constitutes his "conservatism."


All this is to say that, when the political right goes authoritarian and oppressive, that doesn't make them the political left. It makes them the political right behaving abominably.

As with lefties, the right is what the right does.

This is a stupid question. Yes it is. Simple.

Now. If you want an in depth description...the political spectrum isn't a line, but a circle that isn't quite closed. Communism and Fascism are close...but not the same...not connecting. You can move right and left in the circle, but eventually when you get to an extreme is results in excessive government control, or excessive force and violation of freedom.

Cyrylek said:

Why do you think that I do anything of the sort? I am not giving them a pass - I am saying that they are a total fraud. I mean, how someone who is homophobic, anti-Semitic, closed-borders fanatic, anti-free-markets, anti-free-minds, militaristic, etc, etc is "Right-wing"? - doesn't it describe a good Stalinist, down to the last shiny button on his NKVD uniform?

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That doesn't mean that Nazis are leftist.

Rather, it means that Stalinists are rightist.

Indeed said:

In school, I was taught that fascism was not in fact right wing, but compared to American Government, it was very much left wing. Our history class taught that the Nazi party of Germany had a meeting with the Communist Party of Germany to discuss a number of things starting on what slogans would be and what category they would say they were. Fascists were very much left wing, but they looked like right wing extremists compared to the communists, so they decided to call the communists left wing and call the fascists right wing to avoid confusion.
Fascism is left wing because you cannot own a business or large home if you don't toe the line that the ruling party draws.. If you don't toe the line, they take your business and give it to someone who will. It is far right of either communism or socialism in that it allows private property at all. In socialism the government owns all the business and makes sure that everyone is paid equally, and in communism the gov't owns everything and makes sure that everyone has everything they need.
So fascism is far right of communism but still pretty far left of American conservatism. It's somewhere in the middle.

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Fascism is the Republocrats. The American government is speeding quickly down the road of fascism. Y'all are just too busy yelling "socialism" to notice.

Cyrylek said:

I am not talking about any "guilt by association". I am talking about ideological kinship and resulting absolute blindness in the face of overwhelming evidence of the Communist regime's criminality.

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This "ideological kinship" is non existent since US liberals are not totalitarians.

Pray tell me, how did I just manage that? The 1920-30s. There you have a dirty wave of radical socialism sweeping Europe. They are "the wave of future". Absolute power is within reach. Competing ambitious leaders differentiate on trifles and accuse each other of all mortal sins. In Germany, the Soviet puppets (incidentally, led by German-Jewish intellectuals) compete with people of very similar views who use their Jewishness to whip up a very useful anti-Semitic hysteria. Both "antagonists" have nothing but unlimited hatred for liberals, conservatives and social democrats.

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Oh my goodness, the "dirty-ness" of socialism! The use of "Jewishness" by Jews! They BOTH (socialists included!) hate socialists!

FFS! What insane ramblings!

Yes, "wow". Because the Russian Revolution was done by the (classical) liberals, laborites and social democrats (Mensheviks). The Bolsheviks usurped power and destroyed the Revolution. As anyone not totally brainwashed by "liberal" college professors would know.

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Well there we are again, not only do you have your own vocabulary, but your own alternative history where the Bolsheviks did not split from the Mensheviks in 03 and were not the the "majority" in name or number.

Double WOW!

Nonsense. The Red Terror started immediately after the Bolsheviks took power, and continued, unimpeded, throughout the years when Lenin and Trotsky ruled as the all-powerful duumvirate. Stalin is perceived as The Monster only because he had more time to do exactly the same thing, with body count steadily going up.

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The years of Lenin were occupied by 6 years of civil war in defeating the Whites, once Stalin took over in 22 he tossed out Lenin's New Economic Policy, which included private enterprise. Lenin was never able to implement any sort of post-revolution regime, so to project wartime activities to a post-war scenario is kookie, but that is what I see you doing..... a lot.

Cyrylek said:

I am equating things that are exactly the same, unless you accept the self-serving portrayal of every libertarian as an infantile radical wasting time on the far fringes of our political landscape. The liberal (classical liberal) political vector was always quite well defined, and in the modern American newspeak, we are forced to say "libertarian", when we mean "liberal". In Germany, or Poland, or Scandinavia, or France, and so on - they still say "liberal" and mean "liberal", not "socialist covering his arse and dodging unpleasant semantic associations"

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Yes, friend, Libertarians ARE an extremist group, they minimize ALL restrictions on social and economic activity. They are equal to anarchists minus any self regulation.

You can hijack the term "libertarian" and apply it to your brand of Classic Liberalism, but this is nothing more than a US conservative, an 18th century liberal using a modern wall street economic outlook with outdated social views.....but you are not a libertarian, they are much more radical than a Classical Liberal.

Zyphlin said:

In a tradionalist political science sense, Fascism is generally regarded as "right wing" to an utter extreme. Attempting to compare it as some kind of analog or similar thing to modern american conservatism would be like trying to compare a mid-major Basketball team with the Chicago Bulls of the 90's. It's an emotional bit of hyperbole used as a political bludgeon without regard to common sense.

Take the standard Nolan Chart that's often referenced, or just take the general mindset of it. I prefer it to the standard "left" / "right" idea. Everythings based off a two part scale in terms of Economic Freedom and Social Freedom (or the focus on community vs focus on individual).

Here's a general view of it

In this, Facism would be in the lower portion, probably in the bottom right portion of that section.

Here's a very interesting take on some of the various types of ideologies commonly thought about in the U.S. as well as the extreme ends for each side.

Click to expand...

Since modern US conservatism is in the same quadrant as capitalistic/neoconservatism, with fascism differentiated only by the the amount of personal freedom afforded, it is not "hyperbole" but a marginal difference. There are plenty of US conservatives everyday pronouncing their resistance to personal/social freedoms to anyone outside of their ethnic/social group.

It is no more reasonable to proclaim that the US Right today is comparable to "Facism" the nit is to proclaim that the US Left today is comparable to "communism".

However you want to take that, be my guest.

Cyrylek said:

The very idea that we can neatly separate economic freedoms and social ones is silly: they are interdependent. Freedom of choice is freedom of choice. The real - "classical" - liberals ('libertarians' in modern American usage) are proponents of freedom of choice, and as such "right-wing", if we want to be logical and admit that Fascism, Nazism and Communism are varieties of the collectivist, statist ideology that belong on the Far Left, and nowhere else.

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Maybe you can get on the same page with us and examine the "political compass" above....

Zyphlin said:

It is no more reasonable to proclaim that the US Right today is comparable to "Facism" the nit is to proclaim that the US Left today is comparable to "communism".

However you want to take that, be my guest.

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Again, the only difference between US conservatives and most fascists is the marginal difference in social freedoms, and as I said, there are lots of cons promoting the restrictions of social freedoms on groups outside of theirs. Bircherism is alive and well within the US right wing, Palin and the tea bags are just a few steps away from Stormfront.

Strucker said:

The very point of this thread is an attempt to revise reality so that some monstrous entity called "the Left" is to blame for every political badness.

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It is?! I thought the point of this thread is to clarify how people use certain words and why.

274ina said:

If a Nazi even talked with a Communist, they would have been beaten up and run out.
.

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Ribbentrop was not beaten up and run out after signing agreements with the Stalinists and designing a plan for joint attack on the countries of Eastern Europe.

Of course, regimes like those two turn onto each other sooner or later: there can be only one absolute master. But the same is true for the internal power struggles within the certified Communist camp: Stalin murdered Trotsky and his surrounding; the Soviets and the Maoists became bitter enemies; the Khmer Rouge was eventually taken out (thank god for the lesser evils) by the Vietnamese Communists...

The problem, in either case is extremism, blind and stupid as it is....faith in things which do not even exist.

Krhazy said:

But the American left at least believes that the government's role is, among other things, to protect minorities from private oppression.

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If you deny the anti-immigrant - neo-Malthusian and/or unionist - groups the "left" designation.

Krhazy said:

Whereas fascists' goals, like the Nazis, for example, are often to have the government oppress and murder minorities. So in that way they are very very different..

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But very, very similar - in practice, if not in sloganeering - to the Soviet-style Communists, who specifically targeted and massacred Kalymks, Chechens, Kazakhs, Poles, Ukraininans, and so on, and so on.

Krhazy said:

Social conservatives are the closest we have to fascists in this country, because they believe in broad government power to advance their social goals.

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You could also say that they are "the closest to Communists", for the same reason. Hell, under Stalin, abortion was illegal, homosexuality was a felony (10 years in gulag, for just being gay), most any imaginable ban or prohibition was in place....

Krhazy said:

I think certain liberals might fall into the category as well

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I don't think any of them do - whether we are using the term properly, as in "classical liberal, libertarian", or to describe the moderate, democratic socialists, as it is usually used in America. In the latter case, you may say that they are "left of the center", because of their statist positions on certain economic issues, but they are miles and miles away from the Far Left, such as Communists, Nazis or Fascists.

Cyrylek said:

Definitions vary.

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Not really. Fascism is well understood to be generally hostile to left wing principles.

samsmart said:

That doesn't mean that Nazis are leftist.

Rather, it means that Stalinists are rightist.

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Considering that the Soviet Communism and metastases had conquered half of the world and defined the content of ideological struggles for a century, who is a "true leftist" then? Two dudes in Amherst, Massachusetts smoking dope and quoting Proudhon to each other?