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Is Fascism Right Wing?

Is fascism left or right wing?

  • Left

    Votes: 18 20.2%
  • Right

    Votes: 46 51.7%
  • Neither

    Votes: 16 18.0%
  • Description sucks

    Votes: 9 10.1%

  • Total voters
    89
Sure, but who started "the whole revisionism thing", and when?

Why, indeed, the socially conservative, totalitarian, anti-capitalist, nationalist, militarist police state of the Fascist Italy is "right wing", and the EVEN MORE socially conservative, totalitarian, anti-capitalist, nationalist, militarist police state of the Soviet Russia is "left wing"?

Because of the philosophies driving the socially conservative, totalitarian, anti-capitalist, nationalist, militarist police states.

We're talking philosophies, not realities.
 
The revolutionaries despised Lenin, and there were dark forecasts about his dictatorial tendencies....forecasts that were plainly accurate.

That is correct. The Revolution - that the uneasy coalition of liberals (Vladimir Nabokov's father among most prominent), constitutional monarchists, moderate socialists etc - had achieved after long decades of struggle against all odds - that Revolution was stabbed in the back, murdered by a small but exceptionally brutal and efficient gang of opportunists - leading to long decades of nightmare for Russia and too many countries around the world to count.
 
We're talking philosophies, not realities.

Sure. And the major difference in philosophies boiled down to "Unless he is a Jew". Disappearing altogether by the time of the anti-Semitic campaign of the early 1950s in the USSR.
 
Sure. And the major difference in philosophies boiled down to "Unless he is a Jew". Disappearing altogether by the time of the anti-Semitic campaign of the early 1950s in the USSR.

Keep telling yourself that.
 
The only people I have seen get really vocal about denying the reality that fascism is a philosophy of the right are current people also on the right who resent the connection as it is perceived that it does some damage to them.

The minor internet crusade to detach fascism from the right wing seems more of a defense mechanism than anything else. The American right wing confuses their loathing of government in the current day with a strong right wing government in the past. They badly want to pretend that since fascism had a very strong and powerful government that it could not be what they identify as the far right. Its the No True Scotsman fallacy on steroids.
 
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I do. Totally. May I now continue to think of myself as (1) far right wing, (2) real (classical) liberal (aka libertarian), and (3) a consistent opponent of the extreme far-left ideologies, such as Communism, Nazism and Fascism?

Whatever suits you, obviously.

But I don't see why you should give the political Right a pass...by insisting that when conservatives behave in authoritarian ways (as they virtually always do, when in power)...that it's...the Left!...that is actually to blame.

The tautology is pitch-perfect, and lunatic.


This either

1. denies the possibility of "personal responsibility," a terrific mantra but total pretence among much of the political Right;

or

2. Is declaring that "such conservatives are not behaving as conservatives, but as Leftists."


Aside from its obvious No True Scotsman error, it falters; because, of course, all conservatives, in power, behave at least in part in authoritarian ways.

It's as if I were to say that sexist lefties--who are legion, which I presume you find unsurprising--are not really lefties at all. After all (and I realize I'm rather provincializing the grander political theories to which you refer...but the principles remain intact)...virtually every lefty believes in a predictably, nominally non-sexist worldview. Almost without exception.

Therefore, any lefty who exhibits retrograde sexist behaviour...is actually...a conservative!

I don't buy it.

I don't buy any of the ideological pissing contests that declare any "side" inherently good on an intellectual and moral level.

Aside from its extreme ahistoricism, it's also a repudiation of humanity, who simply have not achieved some "perfection of idea" in a political and economic sphere.

How can we even countenance such hubris? God knows.

Plus, its essentially just masturbation...and since so much is available for just that purpose, I see no reason to bring it into discussions like this. :)
 
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Keep telling yourself that.

Hey, what do I know? I am just an ethnic Pole, born and raised in the USSR, to parents who lost almost all their relatives to the twin plagues of the 20th century.

Someone who had enjoyed all the benefits of the fat and happy Anglo-Saxon capitalist societies - including the undisputed right to bite the hand that feeds you - of course he knows better! He is much more, er, objective...
 
Hey, what do I know? I am just an ethnic Pole, born and raised in the USSR, to parents who lost almost all their relatives to the twin plagues of the 20th century.

With all that, and you think the only philosophical differences between Nazism and Socialism is Jews?
 
Hey, what do I know? I am just an ethnic Pole, born and raised in the USSR, to parents who lost almost all their relatives to the twin plagues of the 20th century.

Someone who had enjoyed all the benefits of the fat and happy Anglo-Saxon capitalist societies - including the undisputed right to bite the hand that feeds you - of course he knows better! He is much more, er, objective...

But if we are to take this as an authoritative stance, what do we do with the influx of European immigrants--fleeing from the Soviet satellites, from Nazi Germany--who were so integral to the North American progressive movements?
 
But I don't see why you should give the political Right a pass

Why do you think that I do anything of the sort? I am not giving them a pass - I am saying that they are a total fraud. I mean, how someone who is homophobic, anti-Semitic, closed-borders fanatic, anti-free-markets, anti-free-minds, militaristic, etc, etc is "Right-wing"? - doesn't it describe a good Stalinist, down to the last shiny button on his NKVD uniform?
 
Why do you think that I do anything of the sort? I am not giving them a pass - I am saying that they are a total fraud.


My point--stated at least twice--is that all conservatives, in power, behave in certain authoritarian ways...and that to blame some theoretical "leftism" for what people do becomes a pretty tepid argument.

If your argument is that conservatives don't actually exist--so that by default all abuse of power is Leftist--then fine. We're arguing that everybody's a leftist. But I don't think that's your argument.

I mean, how someone who is homophobic, anti-Semitic, closed-borders fanatic, anti-free-markets, anti-free-minds, militaristic, etc, etc is "Right-wing"? - doesn't it describe a good Stalinist, down to the last shiny button on his NKVD uniform?


It also describes the right-wing reactionary.
 
the influx of European immigrants--fleeing from the Soviet satellites, from Nazi Germany--who were so integral to the North American progressive movements?

Nabokov was anywhere close to "progressive"? Rachmaninoff? (Who challenged some hapless fellow to a duel over a semantic muddle concerning the word "revolutionary") Stravinsky?

Yes, a whole bunch of German emigrants held views nearly identical to the views of the Nazis - except for the anti-Semitic part - because they were Jewish. So, they had cheered for the Other Twin (whose own anti-Semitism did not become obvious until some two decades later).

But notice the difference: Those are the people who had escaped - before the most terrible events in known history had provided the ultimate clarity. Those of us who were not so lucky have no excuse to delude ourselves.
 
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This is not accurate. "Left" and "right" are extremely malleable terms (as several posters have correctly pointed out). In the end, "conservative" is what conservative does; same with liberal.

So we can look at what the right wing and left wing does in our (ie north American) arena; or we can play No True Scotsman.

So, if the political Right opposes Big government, they would of course oppose the death penalty, for starters...by far the most extreme manifestaiton of any statist government, and one of its organizing principles, at least de facto.

Some people mistake "big" or "small" government as being terms almost entirely to do with taxes, social programs, "entitlements" and so on. But these are only aspects, and not even the most important.

Authoritarianism and "big government" have a lot of different components.

so for example, there are some Westerners (including the late Ms. Thatcher) who have the unmitigated nerve to laud Pinochet (a right-winger) for his "small government" and "economic freedoms."

In other words, running a gigantic imprisonment, torture and murder regime is not "big government"; but raising taxes is!

:)

Big Government is when the state can give you everything you desire, but also take it away at any moment. Be it Welfare or Life!
 
It also describes the right-wing reactionary.

Begging the question: Is there really such thing as "the right-wing reactionary"? If we have identical phenomena described by "opposite" terms, shouldn't we drop one of the terms? I don't mind if you say that ALL totalitarian, extreme-statist regime were "actually right-wing", or (as I prefer, for "sentimental reasons") that they were all "actually left-wing". But it makes no sense to declare one "left", and its near-perfect copy "right".
 
Nabokov was anywhere close to "progressive"? Rachmaninoff? (Who challenged some hapless fellow to a duel over a semantic muddle concerning the word "revolutionary") Stravinsky?

Yes, a whole bunch of German emigrants held views nearly identical to the views of the Nazis - except for the anti-Semitic part - because they were Jewish. So, they had cheered for the Other Twin (whose own anti-Semitism did not become obvious until some two decades later).

But notice the difference: Those are the people who had escaped - before the most terrible event in known history had provided the ultimate clarity. Those of us who were not so lucky have no excuse to delude ourselves.

This doesn't seem to be the case. Jewish political activism--and the Jewish vote--have consistently been liberal (I mean in the contemporary vernacular)/leftist, including in the darkest part of the fascist and communist interregnum.
 
Begging the question: Is there really such thing as "the right-wing reactionary"? If we have identical phenomena described by "opposite" terms, shouldn't we drop one of the terms? I don't mind if you say that ALL totalitarian, extreme-statist regime were "actually right-wing", or (as I prefer, for "sentimental reasons") that they were all "actually left-wing".


Well, I am not making the claim that all totlaitarian governments were right-wing. I think a case can be made that tyrannies--which after all rule over the messy complexities of human societies--have inherent to them both leftish and rightish values.

But it makes no sense to declare one "left", and its near-perfect copy "right".

Perhaps not. But you're assuming agreement that homophobia, anti-semitism, anti-immigration et al are specifically and only of the Left. I think it's obviously false.

Again...unless there is really no such thing as active agents called "conservative."
 
With all that, and you think the only philosophical differences between Nazism and Socialism is Jews?

With all due respect to Jews, they did not make it, as the "philosophical difference": a vicious anti-Semitic campaign was underway in the USSR, by the time of Stalin's death. Jewish celebrities were assassinated or "disappeared", people with "funny last names" were arrested on most improbable charges, and a whole "Jewish Autonomous Region" was designated in - - - the eastern Siberia - any translation needed?

The "difference" was only in emphasis on particulars and in the phase of development.
 
This doesn't seem to be the case. Jewish political activism--and the Jewish vote--have consistently been liberal (I mean in the contemporary vernacular)/leftist, including in the darkest part of the fascist and communist interregnum.

Ludwig von Mises - or Ayn Rand, for that matter - what are they, chopped liver? (as they say in Brooklyn).

For obvious reasons, Jews had been represented disproportionally in the intellectual class of the early 20th century. And that class was generally infected with the socialist "memes".

Doesn't mean that any particular Jew who barely escaped a Nazi gas camera would admire the intent behind a Makarov pressed against the back of his head.
 
you're assuming agreement that homophobia, anti-semitism, anti-immigration et al are specifically and only of the Left. I think it's obviously false.

I am assuming nothing. I am trying to give some meaning to familiar but extremely vague labels. The complexity of real life is one thing; the contradictory, illogical definitions is another.
 
Ludwig von Mises - or Ayn Rand, for that matter - what are they, chopped liver? (as they say in Brooklyn).

I wouldn't insult chopped liver by associating it with Rand's name.

But no, I didn't mean to suggest it was universal by any means. Only that diaspora Jews, particularly in the United States, tend far more towards the Left than towards the Right...it's not even close.

It was true in 1930. And it remains true today.

For obvious reasons, Jews had been represented disproportionally in the intellectual class of the early 20th century. And that class was generally infected with the socialist "memes".

And what of 2013?

At any rate, some conservative Jews (Podhoretz, Jonah Goldberg, some others) have tried to explain it using, yes, your point, also some ruminations on the the effect of the gospels on Jewish moral and intellectual life, etc.

I don't pretend to know why American Jews remain the most progressive of any identified grouping in the country, nor do I demand that it means something fundamental, although it might.

I was only replying to the idea (which I thought implied...forgive me if I'm mistaken) that anyone who suffered under the Nazis or the Soviets would be likley to eschew leftist politics.

That doesn't appear to be the case.
 
(Assuming most are answering here based on the American standard of Right vs Left)

To the people who put right Wing, you do realize that Fascism is for state controlled industries, right?

And for the people who selected Left Wing, you do realize Fascism is based on nationalism, militarism and imperialism?

To argue that fascism is clearly a left wing or right wing ideology is stupid. Fascists are opposed to socialism, communism, traditional conservatism, and liberal democracies. If they fit anywhere on the American scale, they are centrists.
 
(Assuming most are answering here based on the American standard of Right vs Left)

To the people who put right Wing, you do realize that Fascism is for state controlled industries, right?

And for the people who selected Left Wing, you do realize Fascism is based on nationalism, militarism and imperialism?

To argue that fascism is clearly a left wing or right wing ideology is stupid. Fascists are opposed to socialism, communism, traditional conservatism, and liberal democracies. If they fit anywhere on the American scale, they are centrists.


To your credit, one of the scholars of fascism whom I cited earlier made a similar point; I think he called them "radical centrists" or some such thing.
 
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If we all can agree that Fascism is bad, does it matter if it's Left or Right?
 
If we all can agree that Fascism is bad, does it matter if it's Left or Right?

At bottom, no. As they say, those on the wrong side of the gun don't care.

The very point of this thread is an attempt to revise reality so that some monstrous entity called "the Left" is to blame for every political badness.
 
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