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Israel and Palestine

Israel or Palestine?

  • Israel. The UN created it for a reason

    Votes: 19 36.5%
  • Palestine. It was their land.

    Votes: 12 23.1%
  • Israel, but the land the UN gave them when first made.

    Votes: 8 15.4%
  • Other (post below)

    Votes: 13 25.0%

  • Total voters
    52
Tashah said:
I understand the concept of victory through population demographics. I can also assure you that none of what you write is lost on the Israelis.

Per the Arab/Israeli population demographics, you must take into account that the cost of living in Israel is far above what it would be living in the slums of Gaza or Samaria. In other words, the financial burden of large Arab families in Israel would be prohibitive. I suppose you'll have to trust me on this, but Israel will not artificially support (welfare) those who would rather engage in procreation than education.

Arab ingress and egress statistics are also monitored and adjusted. For Arab spouses who are separated (one living in Israel and the other in Palestine), egress is unlimited but ingress is subject to Israeli government controls. I believe at the current time a Palestinian female must be at least 25 years of age and a Palestinian male 35 years of age to reunite in Israel proper.

Despite the fact that there are Christians, Muslims, and Druze living in Israel, it was conceived and realized with a specific purpose, and shall remain as the Jewish homeland. Anyone who believes this truism is problematic is more than welcome to emigrate elsewhere.
In the event that I have not made it sufficiently clear, I'm on your side.

To the extent that Arabs spend quite a bit of money supporting the Palestinians and their handlers, as well as paying for all the costs of the 'military' operations, they could just as well subsidize Palestinians living in Israel and encourage more of them to 'move in'.

The situation would be akin to that of France, where it is estimated that the Islamic component of the population currently stands at 25% and continues to increase. Politicians there are projecting the day when an election will occur which will sweep Islamics into every national political office. Then we'll see about those head scarves, won't we?

So, who needs a war when the victory can be been won at the ballot box.

The past fifty years has seen no gain by the Arabs in the constant and uninterrupted struggle with Israel. Fifty years more and it could be all over without firing a shot.

Perhaps abortion has an unintended consequence after all.
 
Hornburger said:
I think its Palestine's land then...if Israel was created in 1920 I would say it would be okay because the Allies conquered the Ottoman Empire...but that was no the case. It seems as though the Allies were only making Israel because of the guilt they felt after the Holocaust. Palestine was the sole mandate that occupied that land-not Israel...so I think Palestine now.

Israel was created not due to the holocaust though that pushed along the decision as well as the end of WW2. The Jewish people had been immigrating to Palastine in rising numbers for the past decade and a half before 1948, and as a result of newly sprouting Jewish communities the Arabs decided they needed indipendance to safeguard against the Jews, around 1937 the first Arab revolt broke out and was crush by British troops, the Arabs became restless and began evolving or rather devolving to what they are today. Around 1939 the Jews and Arabs were having regular clashes, and the Jew's began building more kibbutzim, and the British deployed more troops to keep the area under control and for a while it simmered. After the war ended hostilities flaired up again and numerous people were killed and as partition began to be talked about as a reality the Arabs went berserk and began openly attacking convoys of supplies and arab snipers took to the country side. We were fighting the arabs for the next two years until partition. It was not open warfare but every few days you would hear about a clash between Jews and Arabs. So as you can see there was much violence in the region and nearing the coming of partion numerous british soldiers were being killed and a few were kidnapped and exicuted, the British government wanted to end the violence that had been going on for over 10 years, so they decided to make two nations out of the ENGLISH provence of palastinem, "Israel" "Palastine" the Jews had begun immigrating there when the zionist movement began in 1900.



Let me put it to you like this, it would be like the Native Americans saying they wanted the land back from you, do you give it to them? No of course not, and unless you do support giving your whole nation back to the indians its so incredibly hippocritical to dictate that the land belongs to the Arabs. Also, it's not like we forced the Arabs off their land, partion split the Jewish concentrated areas off from the arab concentrated areas, into two seperate nations, but the Arabs burned with hatred for the Jews and attacked and suffered as a result of their own hate. They were struck again when the Arab nations geared for war and Palastinian fedayeen units began sprouting up, so we struck to prevent an invasion, as a result the Arabs lost what grip they had in Palastine.


(Also in addition the term palastinian does not even really have a proper reason for existing, the first time the Arabs began coining that phrase was after the 1967 war in an attempt to attract pity for their "cause")
 
Fantasea said:
In the event that I have not made it sufficiently clear, I'm on your side.

To the extent that Arabs spend quite a bit of money supporting the Palestinians and their handlers, as well as paying for all the costs of the 'military' operations, they could just as well subsidize Palestinians living in Israel and encourage more of them to 'move in'.

The situation would be akin to that of France, where it is estimated that the Islamic component of the population currently stands at 25% and continues to increase. Politicians there are projecting the day when an election will occur which will sweep Islamics into every national political office. Then we'll see about those head scarves, won't we?

So, who needs a war when the victory can be been won at the ballot box.

The past fifty years has seen no gain by the Arabs in the constant and uninterrupted struggle with Israel. Fifty years more and it could be all over without firing a shot.

Perhaps abortion has an unintended consequence after all.


Actually the Arabs dont vote in our elections they vote in the seperate Palastian Authority Elections. This is to avoid exactly what you describe, as it was thought of over 50 years ago. So it will never happen.
 
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Fantasea said:
In the event that I have not made it sufficiently clear, I'm on your side.
I do realize that and appreciate your support Fantasea.

I expounded on your post mainly for the purpose of explaining that what on the surface may seem to be an unyielding principle (that high Arab birth rates will dilute and eventually abolish Jewish control of Israel via population demographics), is neither a viable truism nor an absolute commodity.

Rather than being a democracy in the true ideological sense, Israel is actually a quasi-democracy and has no written Constitution. The guiding principles of Israel's conception and realization were deliniated in its initial statement of independence and soverignty. Israel is a Jewish state and shall remain a Jewish state. If additional legislation is required to ensure its ethnic composition and its longevity... then that shall be addressed in due course.

Fantasea said:
To the extent that Arabs spend quite a bit of money supporting the Palestinians and their handlers, as well as paying for all the costs of the 'military' operations, they could just as well subsidize Palestinians living in Israel and encourage more of them to 'move in'.
Arabs and Palestinians cannot simply 'move in' to Israel. The border control points are highly regulated. I'll share with you a pertinint story...

I have a personal and professional friend who lives in the United States and is an American citizen. Her name is Rana and she is of Palestinian decent. Rana has a Ph.D. in Religious Studies and holds the Religious Department chair at a major American university.

A few months ago, Rana flew to Israel to visit extended family in the territories and spend a few days with me in Tel Aviv. Despite the fact that Rana is a highly educated American citizen and traveling on a valid American passport, she was subjected to intense scrutiny by Israeli security at Ben Gurion International Airport. The main problem was that she listed visiting family in Samaria (the West Bank) as her reason for visiting Israel. To make a long story short, my personal and direct intervention was required for Rana to negotiate the Israeli airport security, border control, and customs apparatus.

As you can plainly deduce from this, Israel does not at all resemble France in this regard and does not extend either 'colonial citizenship' or 'right of return' status to ethnic Arabs and Palestinians. Although it may seem logical to assume that population demographics will eventually win the day for Arabists who harbor the illusion of victory through the Israeli electorate, it is precisely this electorate that precludes this notion from becoming a reality.

 
Hey Billo,

Whether or not intentional, by continually throwing reports on one side of Iraq, a side that is shared by people like you with a pre-existing grudge,(As your attached image proves), you are hurting the morale of both the military personale reading this and/or their families. It achieves NOTHING positive. Everything you do is an attempt to sabotage. You are not seeking truth and you are not seeking lies....You just seek to hurt.

You will not rest until there is a 100% disapproval rating for our current President, which would still be irrelevant because, like it or not, he is OUR President until Jan. 2008.

Defend your actions anyway you want...your ending results are hurtful.
 
I voted Palestine because they've been abused since day 1 they had to go up against tanks with rocks. But I truly believe that they should make Jeruselum a U.N. controled area and split the rest equally.
 
Che said:
I voted Palestine because they've been abused since day 1 they had to go up against tanks with rocks. But I truly believe that they should make Jeruselum a U.N. controled area and split the rest equally.

And with what would the UN control Israel?
 
V.I. Lenin said:
Which one should own the land?



It is amazing that some people cannot ever accept the; "right by conquest" to settle such matters, ..unless the ones who are victorious happen to be whom THEY want to see as legal owners.

Ancient Assryia, Babylon, Persia, The Medes, The Romans etc....right up the the Ottoman Turks all controlled the area at one time, or another.

We KNOW that Israel had a country, a government etc...& a real documented history, & a golden age, & was a MAJORITY in that area of land up until roughly 70 A.D. when the last great jewish diaspora at the hands of Rome's general Titus ended Israeli identity forever. As centuries before by Assryia, Babylon, & Persia who did the very same thing, ..only that Israel WAS able to recover itself.

Jews were forcibly enslaved,..if not put to the sword first, & scattered throughtout many of those conquering countries as was the custom of those times, ..& many lost their identity through the ages, & were absorbed into other cultures. Many "illegally" remembered their heritage though, & the fortunes of war, which countries rose & fell gave them an opportunity to go back to the land of Israel, & re-settle.

Unfortunatley for them, ..Rome did such a complete & thorough job of dismembering, & destroying Israel in 70 A.D., ..it basically became desolate, & the area was repopulated by non-jewish arab nomadic wandering tribes.

The validity, or question of whether or not there ever was a legitimate nation, or country called; "Israel" is not even open to debate because those who conquered Israel were not shy about publicizing their conquests of Israel, ..& it is a fact of many of their ancient histories!

In Israel today....many arabs resent Israeli archaeology from doing digs, because it only re-inforces the fact of Israeli existence which proves the ancient historical link of israeli existence in the land; ..something that misplaced nomadic non-jews do NOT want to be reminded of as it only reinforces Israeli claims by their roots!

If anybody wishes to read a few excerpts of how distant relatives of the jews, (Idumeans)...treated their israeli relatives when Israel had suffered many invasions by foreign invaders, ..please refer to the old testament in "Obadiah" which was written well before the first century A.D.
There is absolutely NO question as to whether or not Israel had a history, a territory & government & existence.

Of course this was LONG before the existence of the religion of ISLAM which UNITED the arab peoples in their hate for Israel since its founding by Mohammed in the 7th century A.D., & its spreading to other ARab nations which only compounded the hate, & utter contempt that the arab countries continue to have towards their semetic brothers called; "Israel"!

Truly....Ishmael has had his finger in Issac's eye since the time of Abraham. God had blessed the seed of Ishmael, ..BUT made his "covenant" with Issac's seed (Jacob); something that angers the Mohammedites to this very day.

What we know about the word; "palestinian" is that it was an invented word overused by Arafat, ..among other jew hating muslims that was meant to imply that a people called "palestinians" were disposessed of their land, ..which of course is PURE FICTION as NOBODY'S land was taken away by any Israeli in 1948.

The arab lust to destroy the new nation of Israel in 1948 called for the arabs living within palestine to leave the area so the surrounding arab nations could commence their wars upon Israel within 24 hours of the United Nations declaring statehood for Israel in may of 1948, ..which in fact DID HAPPEN as the very next day Israel WAS invaded.

Israel wanted to live with all its neighbors in peace, & in fact welcomed any & all to live among them, ..& to this day ALLOWS any arab to be members of its "knesset", ...which SHOULD dispell any notions & charges of Israel seeking to destroy arab identity, or arab representation within the land of Israel.

Israel is guilty of nothing, except where their remnant of their ancestors want to survive in their ''Promised" land in a sea of millions & millions of arab peoples in their former land whereas they made their covenant with their God millennia ago, LONG before Islam came along to mark them for death, destruction & world condemnation.;)
 
Which one should own the land?

Hi Lenin, where's your faggat lover? You can't throw me off this blog like you did yours. You quote from Troskii, bet you didn't know that his grand children learn in Israeli Yeshivas! British puke.
 
And with what would the UN control Israel?

The '48 vote only declared that a majority of member states favored Jewish Self Determination. The UN did not establish the Jewish State, Jews earned the state by fighting a winning their war of Independence. This absurd notion that the UN established the Jewish State makes about as much sense as the British burning the American Capital in the war of 1812 made the White House.
True they Americans painted the burnt building which became their seat of public administration white. But the White House would mean nothing had the Americans lost the war of 1812 to the British.
 
And with what would the UN control Israel?

I voted Palestine because they've been abused since day 1 they had to go up against tanks with rocks. But I truly believe that they should make Jeruselum a U.N. controled area and split the rest equally.

Another right wing reactionary who gets his info from newspapers. Makes a person just want to vomit, such ignorance. Poochy had the Arabs thrown the Jews into the Sea in '48 do you think those Arab states would have established a "Palestinian State"? Funny thing about these so called "Palestinians", they gained public recognition with Arafat's propaganda! Where's their historic currency. How come no such people existed when the Ottomans ruled the middle east!

But this does not stop Poochy's like your self barking and linking all humanity of mankind unto the poor pathetic and abused Palestinians. Poochy right now a major world war which has killed some 6 million Africans is being fought in the Congo. The Congo, that's the same place where the Belgian King Leopold murdered countless millions in his day so he could profit from rubber production. Dog where's your bark.
 
I do realize that and appreciate your support Fantasea.

I expounded on your post mainly for the purpose of explaining that what on the surface may seem to be an unyielding principle (that high Arab birth rates will dilute and eventually abolish Jewish control of Israel via population demographics), is neither a viable truism nor an absolute commodity.

Rather than being a democracy in the true ideological sense, Israel is actually a quasi-democracy and has no written Constitution. The guiding principles of Israel's conception and realization were deliniated in its initial statement of independence and soverignty. Israel is a Jewish state and shall remain a Jewish state. If additional legislation is required to ensure its ethnic composition and its longevity... then that shall be addressed in due course.


Arabs and Palestinians cannot simply 'move in' to Israel. The border control points are highly regulated. I'll share with you a pertinint story...

I have a personal and professional friend who lives in the United States and is an American citizen. Her name is Rana and she is of Palestinian decent. Rana has a Ph.D. in Religious Studies and holds the Religious Department chair at a major American university.

A few months ago, Rana flew to Israel to visit extended family in the territories and spend a few days with me in Tel Aviv. Despite the fact that Rana is a highly educated American citizen and traveling on a valid American passport, she was subjected to intense scrutiny by Israeli security at Ben Gurion International Airport. The main problem was that she listed visiting family in Samaria (the West Bank) as her reason for visiting Israel. To make a long story short, my personal and direct intervention was required for Rana to negotiate the Israeli airport security, border control, and customs apparatus.

As you can plainly deduce from this, Israel does not at all resemble France in this regard and does not extend either 'colonial citizenship' or 'right of return' status to ethnic Arabs and Palestinians. Although it may seem logical to assume that population demographics will eventually win the day for Arabists who harbor the illusion of victory through the Israeli electorate, it is precisely this electorate that precludes this notion from becoming a reality.
Rather than being a democracy in the true ideological sense, Israel is actually a quasi-democracy and has no written Constitution.

Establishing a Constitutional Government thats the focus of my political group.
 
None of what you write is lost on the Arabs. But, their movement need not take the form of war.

However, their goal remains, as does their patience. Simply encouraging and supporting a more rapid population growth among Palestinians, coupled with a 'relaxed' attitude toward peace could, in several generations, produce an imbalance which would simply overwhelm the Israeli populace by dilution.

As the Japanese gained, through peaceful means, the share of the US that they could not gain by war, the Arabs may try the same tactic.

Bad comparison. The Arabs view the Jewish state in the same vein as they did the Crusaders which they eventually expelled. Feudal european barbarians were aliens to the middle east. The comparison breaks down completely with the Jews. 3 Jewish kingdoms have ruled these lands. We as a people have a much stronger claim than do the post Mohamadean invaders who conquored a huge empire in times now dead. What offends the Arabs is their blatant hypocracy; its fine for them to conquor but evil for the Jews to do the same.
 
Aleem poochy sit play dead roll over bark. That's a good pooch. Mohammed is really funny, his "Angel" was unaware that the Apostle Paul was a Jewish secret agent sent by the Sanhedrin to undermine the polytheistic Roman Empire. The "Angel" who dicktated the Koran was un-aware that Jesus was an imaginary man; the same technique was employed in the T'nach with the Book Of Job! Job also being an imaginary man. This technique of literature comes under "Aggaditah".
Divide forment domestic political unrest, this technique the Maccabees employed against the Syrian Greeks when the Jews successfully rebeled against their attempts to impose a Greek Poltis culture upon Jerusalem. So when the Jews sought to revolt against the Romans, well one does not argue against success! Injecting a monotheistic religion into Roman polytheistic society society. Getting Romans to swear alligiance unto the "king of the Jews" rather than Ceasar as god.

Ignorant fishermen not learned in the finer subtle Talmudic techniques of literature "believed" Stefens aggadatah of an imaginary man who died on the cross and who made atonement for sin and believe this aggadatah as occuring literally. The simple reading of the text, in hebrew called "Pashat", this root of this word is 3 letters. By re ordering these same three letters the word "fool" t'pesh is written. The ignorant fishermen of Galilee "believed" a t'pesh pashat of Stephen's aggaditah, originally designed to teach a key pharisee teaching: the resurrection of the dead, and to console the Jewish people who were enduring the political oppression of the Roman plebean governors. These villians sought to steal wealth from their conquored subjects so as to eventually return to Rome and buy their way into the patrician class.

That Gabriel that enlightened Angel was unaware of this diplomatic strategem, reading the Koran makes me laugh at the Arab ignorance of believe in Mohammed's fantacies and visions.
 
Hornyburger, your revisionist history makes me laugh. The term "Palestine" did not come into vogue until the League of Nations Palestinian Mandate of 1922. This mandate, given to the British, favoured the establishment of a Jewish State as per the Balfour Declaration of 1917. No such peoples as "Palestinans" existed when the non Arab Turks ruled the middle east for some 400 years. Poochy get some history books and do your homework.
 
Maybe im too optimistic but i think both jews and arabs should live in 1 state but due to the fact they hate each others guts i vote for splitting the land in half with jews controlling the wall and palestinians al asqa and if neither side can accept splitting jerusalem, i want UN/NATO to take control of Jerusalem

OR

Give the land back to UK if the children cannot share
 
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The Arab is patient and will bide his time. The stated goal is to drive Israel into the sea. The UN mandates mean nothing to them.

When it appears that the time is right the Arab nations will form up and another attempt will be made.

Not likely, they're too lazy to jump a country.
I think it is more likely that Israel will not get peace until a state is established with equal share of land prob.

Muslims are patient, Jerusalem being under jewish control for a few decades is nothing, people like to point that out but compare it to the hundreds if not thousand years muslim controlled it - it is merely a tiny dip.
 
Silvermike,
Amerika uses economic aid like the British did addictive drugs with China late in the 19th century. American largese extends in a balanced way to all the conflicting middle eastern states. The industrial military complex does not want the American boys to come home and disband the army like as was done following the civil war and the 1st world war. America, the world's policeman spends 1 trillion dollars every year maintaining its foreign empire. Making the middle east a set of "balanced" warring states is very profitable for Washington. Hence the "aid" Israel recieves, this money never leaves American soil, it only permits Israel a discount when she buys American weapons and arms. Discount stores call this a "SALE". The American Sales Job equally applies unto the Arab states. Egypt too as Jordan and other non oil producing Arab states recieve this "aid" in almost exact proportion as does Israel. Poochy it would help if you read a book or two on the subject.
 
Laila
another British imperialist yuk. Poochy the way the Arabs are reproducing and the British are not reproducing, I think the UN should make London an Arab capital city.
 
Laila
another British imperialist yuk. Poochy the way the Arabs are reproducing and the British are not reproducing, I think the UN should make London an Arab capital city.

London is a multi cultural city, it already has Arabs in it's community
 
I say we poison the whole lot of land. Make it unable to support human life in the least. If they can't play nice, we'll take the ball and go home.

Heheh, not really. I don't care who owns it, I just don't want to listen to either side bitch about it anymore. It's not my problem so STFU.
 
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