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Nationalizing the Education System

Nationalize Schools?

  • Yes

    Votes: 14 18.9%

  • No

    Votes: 53 71.6%

  • Other

    Votes: 7 9.5%
  • Total voters
    74
phishfi said:
I'll have you know, I've taken a couple classes in my day...

Are you ever gonna answer my question?
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yeah and I have been to a few ball games but I do not tell Larry Bird how to run the Indiana Pacers or how to shoot a jump shot.

Is this your question?

Let me ask you this: if there was a state that didn't make any state level decisions on education, and specifically prohibited he federal government from funding any education ventures in their state, and left all education matters to the counties or municipalities of its state, what would you call that system?
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answer: something I have never seen nor heard of.
 
haymarket said:
yeah and I have been to a few ball games but I do not tell Larry Bird how to run the Indiana Pacers or how to shoot a jump shot.

Is this your question?



answer: something I have never seen nor heard of.
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I'm not trying to tell the state of Michigan how to run their education program, I'm just pointing out that their system isn't a locally controlled one, it's a state education system.

I didn't ask if you'd seen or heard of it. I'm asking what you would call it. If States mandating specific curriculum requirements is still considered local control (and you're the only one so far who has said that), then what do you call the system I described?
 
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And for the record, my belief on this whole situation is that states should be the only one deciding what happens in their state. I don't want the federal government involved; I want states competing against one another for the most effective education programs. If a state finds a private school systems that functions well, or farms the school system out to private businesses and it works hen I want to see the result. I believe in the tenth amendment, because it's the only way to see improvements.
 
phishfi said:
I'm not trying to tell the state of Michigan how to run their education program, I'm just pointing out that their system isn't a locally controlled one, it's a state education system.
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Because you are an outsider in the filed of professional education, you do not understand the terminology used in the field. I provided you the evidence from the State of Washington on what local control meant. But because you are an outsider who is alien to that world and somewhat uneducated to the terminology used in it you fail to properly understand it. In stead you use a different meaning of the word that is not the one being discussed.

I didn't ask if you'd seen or heard of it. I'm asking what you would call it. If States mandating specific curriculum requirements is still considered local control (and you're the only one so far who has said that), then what do you call the system I described?
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Now you are lying. the State of Washington considers it local control also.

As to what I would call it.......Wonderland? :roll: Fantasyland? ;)
 
haymarket said:
Because you are an outsider in the filed of professional education, you do not understand the terminology used in the field. I provided you the evidence from the State of Washington on what local control meant. But because you are an outsider who is alien to that world and somewhat uneducated to the terminology used in it you fail to properly understand it. In stead you use a different meaning of the word that is not the one being discussed.



Now you are lying. the State of Washington considers it local control also.

As to what I would call it.......Wonderland? :roll: Fantasyland? ;)
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So Americans shouldn't have opinions on politics because we aren't all politicians. None of us should have any say in what electronics to buy because we aren't electronics professionals. I cited a nationally referenced source, which stated exactly what locally controlled schools were (which by the way is a very simple term anyways), and you don't consider that a good enough source, yet your source, which off-handedly referenced local control (a state's opinion, and a document that didn't have anything to do with defining state or local roles in education) and all of the sudden that's an end all of the discussion.

You're an incredible hypocrite...
 
It's also hilarious, to me, that there's local ordinances, then state/federal. Local cops, then state/federal. Local laws, then state/federal. Local taxes, then state/federal. Local property regulations, then state/federal. Local zoning, then state/federal. Local roads, then state/federal. But you won't admit that schools still operate in the same manner as every other government entity.
 
phishfi said:
So Americans shouldn't have opinions on politics because we aren't all politicians. None of us should have any say in what electronics to buy because we aren't electronics professionals. I cited a nationally referenced source, which stated exactly what locally controlled schools were (which by the way is a very simple term anyways), and you don't consider that a good enough source, yet your source, which off-handedly referenced local control (a state's opinion, and a document that didn't have anything to do with defining state or local roles in education) and all of the sudden that's an end all of the discussion.

You're an incredible hypocrite...
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Calling me names does not rectify your inability to learn about a common term used in education by professionals in the field.
 
haymarket said:
Calling me names does not rectify your inability to learn about a common term used in education by professionals in the field.
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Just because I'm not a teacher doesn't mean I don't know plenty. A college professor today told me he would consider"local" to mean county or school district specifically dictating their own standards. An Ohio teacher (high school physics) said the system they are stuck with (Ohio standardized test requirements and minimum curriculum requirements is "anything but 'local'" in his mind).

I love the switch to this whole "high and mighty" argument, now that you know you're the only teacher talking here, but you're still not right...
 
phishfi said:
Just because I'm not a teacher doesn't mean I don't know plenty. A college professor today told me he would consider"local" to mean county or school district specifically dictating their own standards. An Ohio teacher (high school physics) said the system they are stuck with (Ohio standardized test requirements and minimum curriculum requirements is "anything but 'local'" in his mind).

I love the switch to this whole "high and mighty" argument, now that you know you're the only teacher talking here, but you're still not right...
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I give you a 40 page study from Minnesota which identifies the system we have been talking about as LOCAL CONTROL. This was linked to. This was quoted from. This was cited.

You claim you talked to two people. :doh:roll:
 
phishfi said:
Just because I'm not a teacher doesn't mean I don't know plenty. A college professor today told me he would consider"local" to mean county or school district specifically dictating their own standards. An Ohio teacher (high school physics) said the system they are stuck with (Ohio standardized test requirements and minimum curriculum requirements is "anything but 'local'" in his mind).

I love the switch to this whole "high and mighty" argument, now that you know you're the only teacher talking here, but you're still not right...
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You are wasting your time. Here are some things to think about:

1. Teachers teach and you are not a teacher; therefore, you are the learner and need to listen to what the teacher says. You will always be wrong until the teacher tells you that you are correct.
2. Those who can't do, teach.
3. Government is the answer, it doesn't matter what the question is.

Have a nice day.
 
haymarket said:
Because you are an outsider in the filed of professional education, you do not understand the terminology used in the field.
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This is a lazy argument and I think you can do better. You don't have to work in a field to have an opinion on it or to process information logically.

That would be like me trumping you on every conversation about whether or not we should be at war, all because I've been there and you haven't.
 
RabidAlpaca said:
This is a lazy argument and I think you can do better. You don't have to work in a field to have an opinion on it or to process information logically.

That would be like me trumping you on every conversation about whether or not we should be at war, all because I've been there and you haven't.
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Yeah I'm kinda blown away by the thought of someone making an argument like that, personally. Then when I do reference people in the field of education, it's only two people so I'm still wrong... whatever, I'm done arguing this point because it's irrelevant to a debate on nationalizing our education system
 
phishfi said:
So Americans shouldn't have opinions on politics because we aren't all politicians. None of us should have any say in what electronics to buy because we aren't electronics professionals. I cited a nationally referenced source, which stated exactly what locally controlled schools were (which by the way is a very simple term anyways), and you don't consider that a good enough source, yet your source, which off-handedly referenced local control (a state's opinion, and a document that didn't have anything to do with defining state or local roles in education) and all of the sudden that's an end all of the discussion.

You're an incredible hypocrite...
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But we don't have much say in that - the EE's that design the stuff we buy make those decisions.
 
RabidAlpaca said:
This is a lazy argument and I think you can do better. You don't have to work in a field to have an opinion on it or to process information logically.

That would be like me trumping you on every conversation about whether or not we should be at war, all because I've been there and you haven't.
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The fact is that the person in question clearly rejects common terms used in the filed of education and my link to the Minnesota report in which they use the term LOCAL CONTROL as I have been using it clearly demonstrates this.
 
haymarket said:
and who is that?
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:doh

The people, haymarket-who-taught-government-for-decades-in-the-public-education-system. The people are sovereign in our form of government.
 
Do these principles in fine require that the powers of the general government should be limited, and that beyond this limit, the States should be left in possession of their sovereignty and independence? We have seen that in the new government as in the old, the general powers are limited, and that the States in all unenumerated cases, are left in the enjoyment of their sovereign and independent jurisdiction.

"The words "people of the United States" and "citizens" are synonymous terms, and mean the same thing. They both describe the political body who, according to our republican institutions, form the sovereignty, and who hold the power and conduct the Government through their representatives. They are what we familiarly call the "sovereign people," and every citizen is one of this people, and a constituent member of the sovereignty." Dredd Scott v Sandford, 60 US 393, at pg 404;
 
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cpwill said:
:doh

The people, haymarket-who-taught-government-for-decades-in-the-public-education-system. The people are sovereign in our form of government.
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can you tell me the last time 'the people' decided an issue of constitutionality after it was decided by the US Supreme Court? That was the topic being discussed.

It is really silly - not to mention petty - that you have such envy of my education and experience that you stoop and lower yourself to taking the cheapest of shots based on your own perverted and skewed intentionally dishonest butchering of what is actually being said and discussed. This is not the first time you have done it and it simply demeans you for engaging in such foolishness.
 
I love how anytime education is brought up the solution is always "Dump more money into it". The problem with our education system isn't that we don't put enough money into it, the main issue is it's too standardized. The teachers teach how to take the test, rather than the actual material on the damn test. But what do I know about how teachers teach I was only in High school a year ago. And there are alot of people like me who feel the same way, but nobody listens to us. That and the fact that you aren't going to get someone to learn who doesn't give a **** in the first place.
 
haymarket said:
can you tell me the last time 'the people' decided an issue of constitutionality after it was decided by the US Supreme Court? That was the topic being discussed.
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Is it your claim that the Supreme Court claiming supremacy over the other branches equates to their right to do so? Or perhaps you can explain to me how in the world that excuses the fact that you did not know who was sovereign in the American political system?

It is really silly - not to mention petty - that you have such envy of my education and experience that you stoop and lower yourself to taking the cheapest of shots based on your own perverted and skewed intentionally dishonest butchering of what is actually being said and discussed. This is not the first time you have done it and it simply demeans you for engaging in such foolishness.
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:lol: I don't have envy of your education. You have a masters in education; if there is a less rigorous masters degree, I am unaware of it. I don't envy your experience, I want to cry that someone so ignorant of so many portions of American political history was allowed to teach American History and Government. You don't make me envious, you make me depressed.
 
haymarket said:
The fact is that the person in question clearly rejects common terms used in the filed of education and my link to the Minnesota report in which they use the term LOCAL CONTROL as I have been using it clearly demonstrates this.
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It was a Washington document, if I'm not mistaken. And the topic of the document was not about local control, it simply started by mentioning local control, and there have been PLENTY of cases where a government document has been mistaken before...
 
cpwill said:
Is it your claim that the Supreme Court claiming supremacy over the other branches equates to their right to do so? Or perhaps you can explain to me how in the world that excuses the fact that you did not know who was sovereign in the American political system?
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I've heard many conservatives on this board declare Obama to be a "dictator", so it is not beyond reason to ask what YOU mean by the term "sovereign". Belittling someone who asks what you mean is not the fault of the poster but of your fellow conservatives, and most likely yourself, because of the rhetoric you (pl.) use in many threads. Your post could have easily been (mis)interpreted in that light.
 
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haymarket said:
can you tell me the last time 'the people' decided an issue of constitutionality after it was decided by the US Supreme Court? That was the topic being discussed.

It is really silly - not to mention petty - that you have such envy of my education and experience that you stoop and lower yourself to taking the cheapest of shots based on your own perverted and skewed intentionally dishonest butchering of what is actually being said and discussed. This is not the first time you have done it and it simply demeans you for engaging in such foolishness.
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I'll name a few: prohibition, marijuana nullification, the few states right now that are nullifying federal gun laws, border states enforcing stronger immigration laws, the northern states nullifying the federal slave laws. It's happened plenty of times in our history, the people are the sovereign, in fact, that's kind of how our government's founding document begins...
 
haymarket said:
The way to change education is to change it all over the nation by eliminating the factory assembly line model that we have used all over all 50 states for the last century or more.
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Because bureaucrats in DC know better than teachers and parents on how to educate children. If NCLB taught us anything its that national govt is not about to divert away from the assembly line model.
 
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