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The divide between the rich and the rest

How serious a problem is the divide between the wealthy and the rest of us?

  • Not a problem at all.

    Votes: 32 29.4%

  • A problem, but not a serious one.

    Votes: 8 7.3%

  • A fairly serious problem.

    Votes: 34 31.2%

  • It's not just a "problem." It's a catastrophe that is only getting worse.

    Votes: 35 32.1%

  • This divide does not exist.

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Total voters
    109
Rocketman said:
Absolutely, the successful start with an idea, many that complain are not dedicated enough to pursue those kind of rewards, hell I'm not. I want to work my 60 hour week draw may pay, play and spend time with the family. It comes down to drive and dedication to meeting your goals and objectives.
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I guess you missed my edit. You are conveniently ignoriing the fact that bill gates And Steve jobs made their riches off the backs of Chinese human rights violations. They are essentially criminals.
 
Ikari said:
You "know" at least 10 millionaires that were dirt poor huh? Who, how? Also, care to supply actual statistics? How many in the top 1% started out poor? How many in the top 0.1% (where the TRUE wealth lies) started out poor?

Stats, not personal testimony. Personal testimony only counts if someone made an absolute statement such as "no poor person, regardless of hard word, dedication or luck, could ever rise to the ranks for the rich", but no one said that.
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5 of them were contractors that benefitted from the housing boom, a couple more of them are rental property guys, and the others just though real estate and other deals. Point is their family lives suck, and they work 80+ hours per week every week, they dream of ways to make their next dollar.
 
Guy Incognito said:
I guess you missed my edit. You are conveniently imprint the fact that bill gates And Steve jobs made their riches off the backs of Chinese human rights violations. They are essentially criminals.
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That is your opinion, but means nothing in this argument. Everyone that is a failure can find an excuse if they look hard enough
 
Rocketman said:
5 of them were contractors that benefitted from the housing boom, a couple more of them are rental property guys, and the others just though real estate and other deals. Point is their family lives suck, and they work 80+ hours per week every week, they dream of ways to make their next dollar.
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Yes, there are some fairly well off people who do so a lot. Hard work and luck can still account for something. But what's the break down? As I said, how many in the top 1% started poor? How many in the top 0.1% started poor? If we have true free market capitalism and economic mobility, we'd see quite a bit of movement. But if we have stagnation and a closed, corporate capitalist system we'll start seeing less and less till economic mobility is removed. So which side is it?
 
Rocketman said:
That is your opinion, but means nothing in this argument. Everyone that is a failure can find an excuse if they look hard enough
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China's human rights record is a matter of fact, not opinion.
 
Ikari said:
Yes, there are some fairly well off people who do so a lot. Hard work and luck can still account for something. But what's the break down? As I said, how many in the top 1% started poor? How many in the top 0.1% started poor? If we have true free market capitalism and economic mobility, we'd see quite a bit of movement. But if we have stagnation and a closed, corporate capitalist system we'll start seeing less and less till economic mobility is removed. So which side is it?
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We have the mobility, unfortunately we are becoming a society of handouts with more and more people less willing to perform for their pay. I work for a global company and our quality of products are much higher here but finding a dependable work force is harder and harder driving the cost to the point of harder decisions being made. Much of the action taken by larger corporations is forced on them by the business and social environment that is changing around them.
 
Rocketman said:
When it is multiple times, it is
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No, not really. Depends on the multiple, but it needs to be upwards of ten million before you are even beginning to talk abou real money. Even ten million is chump change in the grand scheme of things.
 
Guy Incognito said:
China's human rights record is a matter of fact, not opinion.
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that is still an excuse for you to challenge two successful people that were average people before making it big. surely you can do better.
 
Guy Incognito said:
No, not really. Depends on the multiple, but it needs to be upwards of ten million before you are even beginning to talk abou real money. Even ten million is chump change in the grand scheme of things.
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I could retire and live comfortably on 10 million right now and never look back
 
Guy Incognito said:
Good for you. It's still not real wealth.
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Sure is, just maybe not to you. 10 million coud easily be 100 million in todays markets in a short period of time
 
Rocketman said:
We have the mobility, unfortunately we are becoming a society of handouts with more and more people less willing to perform for their pay. I work for a global company and our quality of products are much higher here but finding a dependable work force is harder and harder driving the cost to the point of harder decisions being made. Much of the action taken by larger corporations is forced on them by the business and social environment that is changing around them.
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Yes, we do give too many hand outs, corporate welfare is out of hand these days. They benefit too much from tax payers, and are given too much leeway to hide away their fortunes or offshore production. Corporate Capitalism is choking out the economic freedom of the Republic and is one of the reasons we're seeing wealth aggregate into fewer and fewer hands.
 
Rocketman said:
Sure is, just maybe not to you. 10 million coud easily be 100 million in todays markets in a short period of time
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Look, I'm talking about objective terms. Ten million net worth is not upper class, it is the higher end of middle class. If you work your whole life as a doctor and retire on a ten million nest egg, it is not real wealth. Yes, you can invest that money in the market and make a hundred million, but what retiree is going to take that risk?

You're mixing up the petit-bourgeoisie and the bourgeoisie. Despite their similar sounding names, the petit bourgeoisie have more in common with the proletariat.
 
When constantly revealed that the increase in wealth of the upper, what is it, we'll say 5% the increase is greater than the accumulative total, TOTAL of the remaining 95%, ya, I think that constitutes a problem, a very BIG problem.
 
Medusa said:
even if these social classes will exist , their basic needs should be met by the governments

again it comes to social justice................
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Only those who cannot do for themselves due to disability. Otherwise, put them on welfare farms and let them work for what they get.
 
DVSentinel said:
Only those who cannot do for themselves due to disability. Otherwise, put them on welfare farms and let them work for what they get.
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your post has the potential to represent the wild capitalism
 
Phys251 said:
How serious a problem is the wealth gap between the wealthy and the rest of us?
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Surtr said:
I don't see it as a problem at all. The lower classes got mad, and bitched about it enough to get in the press again, just like they always do.
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Therein lies the problem... people don't see it as a problem, but it is a nest of termites in the house. Income inequality is a primary source of political instability, and the US has one of the worst problems with income inequality (measured by the Gini coefficient).

Map: U.S. Ranks Near Bottom on Income Inequality - Max Fisher - The Atlantic

The fact that people's perceptions, not only of the ramifications of income inequality, but of just how bad the "infestation" is in the US, serve to make this a big threat to our Constitution, our way of life and the very existence of the US than Korea, China, Al Qaeda or the national debt.

table_wealth_divide_110906_2.jpg
 
It hasn't made my life any better or worse. In fact, looking at my tax returns from the time my wife and I got married in 2004 to now, we have increased our earnings by over 400%. From 2004-2008 liberal democrats would tell you this is impossible, because of the policies of GWB. From 2009-present conservative republicans would tell you this is impossible because of Obama's desire to ruin our economy.

Somehow we have made it through the strife put forth by tea-partiers, and survived the "greed" of the 1% by doing nothing more than getting our degrees and working hard.
 
upsideguy said:
Therein lies the problem... people don't see it as a problem, but it is a nest of termites in the house. Income inequality is a primary source of political instability, and the US has one of the worst problems with income inequality (measured by the Gini coefficient).

Map: U.S. Ranks Near Bottom on Income Inequality - Max Fisher - The Atlantic

The fact that people's perceptions, not only of the ramifications of income inequality, but of just how bad the "infestation" is in the US, serve to make this a big threat to our Constitution, our way of life and the very existence of the US than Korea, China, Al Qaeda or the national debt.

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The US has a lot of problems; bums and hippies aren't even at the top of the list. They can fix it if they want to, but it requires hard work. Every day I drive to work, Sunday-Saturday most weeks, and I see men standing around at the overpass holding their hand out for scraps. Younger men, working age, nothing wrong with them at all. Instead of working to close that gap, they'd rather sit around smokin and jokin, pissing their lives away. I worked hard to get where I am today, anyone can get to at least upper middle class, they just have to try. If anything is the problem, it's the whiners who sit around and bitch about how it's not fair that some people have nicer things than them while they absolutely refuse to suck it up and take responsibility for why their lives suck. It's not because I have money, that's for damn sure. All kinds of places hiring around here, good pay, some rig hands start out at 11 dollars an hour, but the work is hard, and that's just not "cool".
 
Guy Incognito said:
Well, ok, a fair point. But that's kind of a chicken or the egg question. What is the problem, the corrupt government or the plutocrats who corrupted it?
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Tax loopholes, offshore companies, 1 000 001 laws, progressive taxation, etc, etc... Generally speaking, the great complexity of the system.
 
Surtr said:
The US has a lot of problems; bums and hippies aren't even at the top of the list. They can fix it if they want to, but it requires hard work. Every day I drive to work, Sunday-Saturday most weeks, and I see men standing around at the overpass holding their hand out for scraps. Younger men, working age, nothing wrong with them at all. Instead of working to close that gap, they'd rather sit around smokin and jokin, pissing their lives away. I worked hard to get where I am today, anyone can get to at least upper middle class, they just have to try. If anything is the problem, it's the whiners who sit around and bitch about how it's not fair that some people have nicer things than them while they absolutely refuse to suck it up and take responsibility for why their lives suck. It's not because I have money, that's for damn sure. All kinds of places hiring around here, good pay, some rig hands start out at 11 dollars an hour, but the work is hard, and that's just not "cool".
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Please explain why you think some anecdotal drivel is somehow a worthy counter argument to an articulate, well-cross referenced, pertinent article and a clear graph dealing with the differences between reality and perception on the specific subject discussed. Really? You see some guy standing on a corner and think your understanding of who he is and why he is, to be an appropriate counter-balance to (some degree of) expert witness (not me, my cites)?

Now I could bore you with quite a few anecdotes of my own. I employ 60 people, many of whom make $10-11 per hour (which is 50% above the minimum wage)... including one women that I surprised with a small performance bonus, which only served to screw up her Medicaid, which she needed to pay for the medicine of her epileptic child. I had to write two letters to the review board to explain this was a one time bonus... but that is a story of one. Its a micro-economic view to argue a macro-economic situation. Even though I actually know these people, not just pass them by and speculate as to their specific life-challenges, I would rightfully expect someone to laugh at me for countering an intelligent argument with my one story.

I am not sure what is more troubling: you thinking you have countered my argument with your backhanded anecdotes (which aren't even that, as you are assuming a lot about the life of people you do not know); or the guy the "liked" you thinking you "zinged me" with a prima facie retort.

Step up your game. You are on the Internet. There is a plethora of information at your finger tips; some of which might even support your position. We are not interested in your writing he life stories of the guys you pass in the street and know nothing about. You can do that on a creative writing website.
 
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upsideguy said:
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From a macro perspective I understand the politically destabilizing potential of vast wealth inequality, but at the same time I feel pretty unmoved by Americans' desire for this magical outcome of wealth equality despite all other factors. Simply put, there are way too ****ing many people in this country and the world, in my opinion, and way too many of them suck utterly at life. Not just because they're poor, but because their behavior is pathological.

In Alaska there is a Medicaid-based children's health insurance program that makes maternity care and children's health insurance FREE to those under 175% of the poverty level of income. For those living outside the cities, they'll pay to fly those expectant mothers to the cities and put them up in hotels for up to a month prior to the due date, because you never know when the baby will come, and maybe they'll need an anesthesiologist for a C-section. 100% covered. Plus they get an extra PFD every year if they have more kids. More free money for them. Everyone else pays out the nose for maternity care and children's health insurance, and they are boxed in to paying obscene amounts up here.

There are a number of policies out there in this country like this, whereby those who are LEAST financially capable of supporting their children receive by far the most astronomical subsidies for going ahead and having them anyway. Those who are capable (even if just barely) of supporting children are virtually penalized for having them.

So does vast wealth disparity have a politically destabilizing effect? Yeah. Do I care what a nation of outright entitled people just want delivered to them free of charge on a silver platter? No I do not. Not one bit.
 
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