Would you marry a stripper?

cpwill · Apr 21, 2013

RabidAlpaca said:
To be completely honest, if you're this worried about one of your kids teachers being a former stripper, and the crazy influences this might have on your kid, you're a piss poor parent. You haven't prepared your kid for the real world at all.

What an interesting observation. How many children have you raised?

Aunt Spiker · Apr 21, 2013

cpwill said:
:shrug: I am always leery of applying absolutes. But stereotypes are generally stereotypes for a reason - and that is that the behavior demonstrated is perhaps greater than the mean. Priests are probably more likely to be trustworthy than lawyers, simply because of the incentives of their profession.

Our jobs are a huge part of what we are - and where we spend our time and who we are with impact us greatly.

No, all it shows is what someone assumes about another based on their job-description. IN order to know the REAL reasons for one having gone down a certain career path you MUST get to know them personally.

Drawing assumptions leads you nowhere.

Fiddytree · Apr 21, 2013

sangha said:
More nonsense. For one thing, you said that even if the stripping were in the past, then they shouldn't be teaching. For another, how would a child know that their teacher is a stripper?

The only way is if an adult told them.

And no, you have no right to know the private life of a teacher.

Who on earth told you that?

Goodness, the first thing I was taught was to tighten up my public profile and that teachers often times go to neighboring towns to get a drink. :lol:

Educators are consistently held to higher moral standards and their employment status in part rests on that.

Fiddytree · Apr 21, 2013

Aunt Spiker said:
If it's ok for parents to go to strip clubs - then it's ok for teacher's to perform in one :shrug: I wouldn't care . . . we've had some pretty ****ed up teachers doing ****ed up things to kids during school - and it's funny, none of them worked in a strip club.

And if my former colleagues took that advise, they would be fired.

cpwill · Apr 21, 2013

Aunt Spiker said:
No, all it shows is what someone assumes about another based on their job-description.

Which are often statistically reasonable. Again, stereotypes are often stereotypes for a reason. Everyone cried racism when we started focusing in on why single young black males in inner city New York couldnt' get cab rides.... until people noticed that black cabbies wouldn't pick them up, either. Was it unfair to individuals? :shrug: likely. But the decision to take action which would reduce ones' chances of getting robbed and/or killed was still a reasonable risk mitigation.

IN order to know the REAL reasons for one having gone down a certain career path you MUST get to know them personally.

:shrug: They've made one decision at least (the title of the OP) which has fairly heavy indicators. Sure, they could be the one-in-a-hundred-thousand sweet natured virginal strippers who maintain an innocent heart while working in an arena dedicated to drunkenness and lust. But the odds are against it.

Drawing assumptions leads you nowhere.

Actually drawing assumptions is how the vast majority of us make the vast majority of our decisions. When I hopped in my car this morning, for example, I did not check for wiring underneath to see if someone had put a bomb there. I played the game of likelihood and went with the most likely scenario ("no"). When I am in the Philippines or Thailand, I don't wander drunk and alone into shantytowns or down dark alleyways for the simple reason that I do not want to get robbed - and can safely assume that I am at much greater odds for being robbed if I do so. I hop on planes assuming that they will actually go where my ticket says they will, an in times of trouble I trust people in a cops' uniform assuming that they are real cops, and not criminals dressing as cops. I assume that my wife is roughly who she projects herself as instead of a devilishly clever sociopath, which is why I trust her with my children.

You wouldn't be able to make very many decisions at all if you didn't make assumptions.

cpwill · Apr 21, 2013

Fiddytree said:
Who on earth told you that?

Goodness, the first thing I was taught was to tighten up my public profile and that teachers often times go to neighboring towns to get a drink. :lol:

Most of my teacher friends/family either do not have, or do not really use, a facebook account. It's just not worth the risk.

Educators are consistently held to higher moral standards and their employment status in part rests on that.

Bingo. Educators are - for good or ill, and we'd prefer the former - influences on our children.

Fiddytree · Apr 21, 2013

sangha said:
Because teachers don't teach morality. That's the parents' job.

That's a matter of degree. Schools are all about character building, discipline, and a morally aware and active citizenry.

sangha · Apr 21, 2013

cpwill said:
That is correct - and issues like this are a good part of why I support School Choice. If Sangha High wants to have Daisy Dawn from the Catz Meow teach your 14 year old boy math.... :shrug: you should be free to take him elsewhere.

cpwill said:
What an interesting observation. How many children have you raised?

It's posts like these that sometimes make me think we should pass a law prohibiting the religious, particularly Christians. from being teachers. After all, aside from other fruitcakes, who would want their impressionable children to be taught by people who believe in zombies and who practice symbolic cannibalism?

sangha · Apr 21, 2013

Fiddytree said:
Who on earth told you that?

Goodness, the first thing I was taught was to tighten up my public profile and that teachers often times go to neighboring towns to get a drink. :lol:

Educators are consistently held to higher moral standards and their employment status in part rests on that.

Fiddytree said:
And if my former colleagues took that advise, they would be fired.

We all know that teachers can and have been fired for their behavior outside of work. That's not what the discussion Is about.

We're talking about whether that is right, particularly with respect to working as a stripper

sangha · Apr 21, 2013

Fiddytree said:
That's a matter of degree. Schools are all about character building, discipline, and a morally aware and active citizenry.

None of those things are the same as teaching morality. Strippers can have character (especially ex-strippers), discipline and be active citizens

Fiddytree · Apr 21, 2013

sangha said:
We all know that teachers can and have been fired for their behavior outside of work. That's not what the discussion Is about.

We're talking about whether that is right, particularly with respect to working as a stripper

Under current circumstances, it is absolutely right.

Firstly, the education world is fundamentally a conservative order. It seeks to maintain some semblance of the status-quo, in part out of fear of rocking the boat, and because it is easier to control. This requires conformity, due to the wide clientele, the perspective that the families still have a right to determine the course of their children's upbringing, and the wider social-political structure. Educators are representatives of that order, and of the community at large.

Second, ignoring that status-quo leads to significant classroom management issues. Students are quickly curious and motivated to finding everything out about you they can. This general principle became evident to me when I had students googling me in class rather than doing their assignment. Being employed as a stripper would have a large public footprint, the students would be able to find that information out, and the news spreads like wildfire. Students who are both sexually curious and sexually excitable would not look at their instructor the same way again, and that important portion of respect necessary between the student and teacher is likely to be severed.

Fiddytree · Apr 21, 2013

sangha said:
None of those things are the same as teaching morality.

They are the same things as teaching morality. However basic the lessons are, they are moral lessons.

Strippers can have character (especially ex-strippers), discipline and be active citizens

I find it interesting you gave more credence to the notion that strippers have no character, but are more likely to have character once they leave that life. No matter, anyhow, as I responding to the concept that educators do not teach morality.

sangha · Apr 21, 2013

Fiddytree said:
Under current circumstances, it is absolutely right.

Firstly, the education world is fundamentally a conservative order. It seeks to maintain some semblance of the status-quo, in part out of fear of rocking the boat, and because it is easier to control. This requires conformity, due to the wide clientele, the perspective that the families still have a right to determine the course of their children's upbringing, and the wider social-political structure. Educators are representatives of that order, and of the community at large.

While I agree that maintaining social order is a desired end result of the educational system, I'd note that there is a difference between "maintaining social order" and "maintain *the* social order". Schools have sometimes been the place where the social order is changed. Sex ed is an example of that.

And I do not believe that educators are representative of the social and political order, or the community at large.

Second, ignoring that status-quo leads to significant classroom management issues. Students are quickly curious and motivated to finding everything out about you they can. This general principle became evident to me when I had students googling me in class rather than doing their assignment. Being employed as a stripper would have a large public footprint, the students would be able to find that information out, and the news spreads like wildfire. Students who are both sexually curious and sexually excitable would not look at their instructor the same way again, and that important portion of respect necessary between the student and teacher is likely to be severed.

No, being a stripper doesn't have a large public footprint, as demonstrated by the examples of women who worked as strippers for years without being found out.

sangha · Apr 21, 2013

Fiddytree said:
They are the same things as teaching morality. However basic the lessons are, they are moral lessons.

I find it interesting you gave more credence to the notion that strippers have no character, but are more likely to have character once they leave that life. No matter, anyhow, as I responding to the concept that educators do not teach morality.

I disagree. History, math, science, etc are not the same as teaching morality and an ex-stripper is just as capable of teaching those things as any other person.

And nowhere did I say that strippers have no character. Not sure where you got that from.

Fiddytree · Apr 21, 2013

sangha said:
While I agree that maintaining social order is a desired end result of the educational system, I'd note that there is a difference between "maintaining social order" and "maintain *the* social order". Schools have sometimes been the place where the social order is changed. Sex ed is an example of that.

Then look in broader strokes. On the whole, that is what you are getting.

And I do not believe that educators are representative of the social and political order, or the community at large.

No offense, but how on earth can you claim that? Teacher colleges across the country have that expressed notion. Schools across the country maintain that notion for their employees. It was even pounded into me for years. Even society at large accepts that principle.

No, being a stripper doesn't have a large public footprint, as demonstrated by the examples of women who worked as strippers for years without being found out.

And has the internet taught you little about what often has happened to teachers with less than stellar side-lives?

Fiddytree · Apr 21, 2013

sangha said:
I disagree. History, math, science, etc are not the same as teaching morality and an ex-stripper is just as capable of teaching those things as any other person.

You don't recall teachers either using history an example of morality or immorality? You don't recall your teachers talking about anything other than the academic disciplines? You can't be serious.

And nowhere did I say that strippers have no character. Not sure where you got that from.

I noticed the interesting distinction you made between ex-strippers and current strippers.

sangha · Apr 21, 2013

Fiddytree said:
Then look in broader strokes. On the whole, that is what you are getting.

Teachers have never been required to support the social order in order to qualify for a job teaching in a public school. I find this line of argument to be sophistic.

No offense, but how on earth can you claim that? Teacher colleges across the country have that expressed notion. Schools across the country maintain that notion for their employees. It was even pounded into me for years. Even society at large accepts that principle.

What institutions accept is not the determining factor. For many years, institutions and the social order have supported all sorts of unfair and oppressive policies and justified it on the basis of "maintaining the social order"

Again, I don't deny that teachers can face ramifications for not conforming; I am arguing that this is wrong. Teachers should be judged on the basis of their ability to teach and their performance (and I'm not talking about teaching morality here. IMO, that's best left to the parent)

And has the internet taught you little about what often has happened to teachers with less than stellar side-lives?

Again, I don't deny that teachers can face ramifications for not conforming; I am arguing that this is wrong.

Fiddytree · Apr 21, 2013

sangha said:
Teachers have never been required to support the social order in order to qualify for a job teaching in a public school. I find this line of argument to be sophistic.

In the schools they aren't supposed to upset it.

What institutions accept is not the determining factor. For many years, institutions and the social order have supported all sorts of unfair and oppressive policies and justified it on the basis of "maintaining the social order"

And until that wider notion against strippers across regular society is struck through, teachers will be expected to maintain the status quo on their private lives. No stripping, no pornography, no public binge drinking, no pictures on the internet getting drunk, no pictures of them going to a strip club, nothing.

That is the reality of the profession. If you don't like it, don't enter it, but don't whine about it.

Again, I don't deny that teachers can face ramifications for not conforming; I am arguing that this is wrong. Teachers should be judged on the basis of their ability to teach and their performance (and I'm not talking about teaching morality here. IMO, that's best left to the parent)

And I don't think that should be the only criteria. Teachers aren't in a job like the rest of you are. You're talking about two completely different worlds here. You're placing private sector ethics onto an occupation that does not put itself there, and considers itself above that. Teachers like it, administrators like it, and most of the public likes it.

sangha · Apr 21, 2013

Fiddytree said:
In the schools they aren't supposed to upset it.

Says you. I say different

And until that wider notion against strippers across regular society is struck through, teachers will be expected to maintain the status quo on their private lives. No stripping, no pornography, no public binge drinking, no pictures on the internet getting drunk, no pictures of them going to a strip club, nothing.

That is the reality of the profession. If you don't like it, don't enter it, but don't whine about it.

So you've been reduced to arguing "That's how it's done now, so I must be right!".

That's just sad. I know you can do better than that.

And I don't think that should be the only criteria. Teachers aren't in a job like the rest of you are. You're talking about two completely different worlds here. You're placing private sector ethics onto an occupation that does not put itself there, and considers itself above that. Teachers like it, administrators like it, and most of the public likes it.

Your appeal to the majority is a logical fallacy. It's a shame that you would be in such a profession and rely on such fallacies.

Is the regular use of fallacious logic the way teachers demonstrate the sort of character you spoke of earlier?

Fiddytree · Apr 21, 2013

sangha said:
Says you. I say different

Alright. Good luck with that if you decide to teach.

So you've been reduced to arguing "That's how it's done now, so I must be right!".

That's just sad. I know you can do better than that.

Well, I have a difficult time explaining it to someone who hasn't been in the classroom. Traditions and social expectations mean a great deal. We even take pride in it, if you could believe it.

Your appeal to the majority is a logical fallacy. It's a shame that you would be in such a profession and rely on such fallacies.

Oh, the use of the logical fallacy. I am always amused when someone wants to throw out some latin phrases and declare victory. Of course it is a logical fallacy. Damn near everything is.

You wish to uproot an entire system despite the wishes of the practitioners of the craft and society at large, and somehow I am at disadvantage if I suggest that perhaps we should maintain it out of that consideration. We should listen to the outsider, disregard everyone else, obviously.

How about this for an argument: perhaps we should maintain stricter standards upon other professions. I mean, if I were to be discounted for suggesting that mass acceptance accounts for it being a bad idea to change something so drastically, maybe I would be all the better to suggest the rest of you folks should join our high standards.

But that would be another logical fallacy. Oh, darn.

sangha · Apr 21, 2013

Fiddytree said:
Alright. Good luck with that if you decide to teach.

I'm retired. However, in my life I was fortunate to have many teachers that did not support the social order and actively promoted the subversion of the current order. They were not only not fired, but quite popular with the students.

Well, I have a difficult time explaining it to someone who hasn't been in the classroom. Traditions and social expectations mean a great deal. We even take pride in it, if you could believe it.

Stop flattering yourself by pretending that you're some kind of authority. My family has been involved in the public education system for longer than you've been alive. However, unlike you, I won't dishonestly try to dismiss your opinion because your experience is inferior to mine.

That's because I was taught properly. Therefore, I need not rely on "arguments from authority", which is another logical fallacy.

Oh, the use of the logical fallacy. I am always amused when someone wants to throw out some latin phrases and declare victory. Of course it is a logical fallacy. Damn near everything is.

You wish to uproot an entire system despite the wishes of the practitioners of the craft and society at large, and somehow I am at disadvantage if I suggest that perhaps we should maintain it out of that consideration. We should listen to the outsider, disregard everyone else, obviously.

Oh yeah, I'm just an iconoclast for suggesting that you might be wrong. After all, if it weren't for you and the ban on strippers, the entire system would fall :lamo

How about this for an argument: perhaps we should maintain stricter standards upon other professions. I mean, if I were to be discounted for suggesting that mass acceptance accounts for it being a bad idea to change something so drastically, maybe I would be all the better to suggest the rest of you folks should join our high standards.

But that would be another logical fallacy. Oh, darn.

Don't worry. I won't hold it against you. After all, you're an educator. It's not like you have to say things that make sense or get fired. Just as long as you don't take your clothes off for money, you're good to go.

cpwill · Apr 22, 2013

sangha said:
It's posts like these that sometimes make me think we should pass a law prohibiting the religious, particularly Christians. from being teachers. After all, aside from other fruitcakes, who would want their impressionable children to be taught by people who believe in zombies and who practice symbolic cannibalism?

You know you only degrade from the effectiveness of your own argument when you pull crap like that, right?

But please, don't let me interrupt you making a fool of yourself

cpwill · Apr 22, 2013

Fiddytree said:
Alright. Good luck with that if you decide to teach.

Well, I have a difficult time explaining it to someone who hasn't been in the classroom. Traditions and social expectations mean a great deal. We even take pride in it, if you could believe it.

Naturally. Sangha here is attempting to comment on the inner workings of a profession of which he knows little to nothing (it seems). While I think I might quibble with you a bit on the widespread dedication to "teachers are pounded never to teach something other than what the family wants reinforced" (Wilson, for example, said that the purpose of education was to make men as unlike their fathers as possible, and the "let me enlighten you" liberal hippy professor is so ubiquitous he has a South Park meme), the idea of education as a place where civics are imparted as well as mathematics is pretty much (as near as I am aware) universal.

Oh, the use of the logical fallacy. I am always amused when someone wants to throw out some latin phrases and declare victory. Of course it is a logical fallacy. Damn near everything is.

I have long wanted to start a conversation on that. The problem is that questions like that are best suited for the Loft so they don't get jumped; but nobody really talks in the Loft

.

DA60 · Apr 22, 2013

ChrisL said:
Now this I find interesting. Here you say the above, but as I quoted below:

So basically, strippers are NOT good enough for you or other guys because of their questionable moral standards, however you feel they are good enough for students who are trying to learn. Hmmm.

Lol...once again, for the third time, you are putting words in my mouth.

Can you not read?

I said - several times - that I dated exotic dancers...so how on earth could they not be good enough for me?

Why don't you a) stop putting words in people's mouths and b) lighten up.

Sheesh....you are on my ignore list until you do both.

And 'no' I don't think you will say you care - but I am just being courteous so you don't waste your time replying to me when I (probably) won't even read your post.

Have a nice day.

Btw - I believe NO ONE is EVER above or beneath ANYBODY...NO EXCEPTIONS.

We are equals...some are more/less messed up then others; but no one is better (IMO).

ChrisL · Apr 22, 2013

RabidAlpaca said:
You answered that you don't know. Which is another way of saying you're afraid of contradicting yourself.

No, I answered it. I said case by case basis.

Personal responsibility does not mean that you can dictate what the consequences of the actions of others are. Personal responsibility would only apply when society has made rules that no stripper can ever be a teacher (it hasn't), and these rules are well known. An angry group of parents with pitch forks and an insanely intolerant woman on the internet do not qualify.

Society does not accept teachers who are sex industry workers. I'd like you to name one who has.

That would be like saying "Yeah, I threw rocks at those faggots. It's called personal responsibility, and that rock was the consequence that I decided for them."

That is stupid beyond belief. It is nothing at all the same.

No, it's not. You're using your religious judgements to harass someone else. You're trying to make their degree worthless, and their life's work for naught. How would you like it if someone else decided you'd never be able to do your passion anymore? All based on intolerance, and not any actual effect on children?

No, I'm not. If I once worked in the sex industry, I would not even attempt to pursue a career working with children because I would know better than that. I would know that if the children found out, I would be a distraction. I would put my own selfishness on the back burner and pursue another career that would not be effected by my past.

You've still refused to explain any way this could even remotely effect children. All it's done so far is effect YOUR perceptions of the teacher.

Yes I have. If you don't want to comprehend, that's not MY problem.

Considering you replied hours after the 25 minute edit limit expired, that doesn't make any sense at all.

Well, let's see DUHHHH, there are only 2 reasons why someone would edit a post, either they made a mistake or they made an addendum. Since you spelled lackadaisical wrong, I thought that perhaps making a correction was not on the top of your list, so it must have been an addendum.

LOL! I'm right though, aren't I?

Sex education doesn't teach you morality. It teaches you how sex works, what STDs are, and how to practice safe sex. With few exceptions, no teacher in sex ed class is standing there telling kids they can't have sex.

It is teaching children about sex, which has MANY moral implications.

Are the kids marrying, dating, or ****ing the teachers? Or are they learning how to read and write? I find it astounding that you don't know the difference. How many former strippers turned teachers have given kids lap dances or molested children? I'd like numbers and sources.

Well, our children don't seem to be keeping up with other children in other countries as far as education goes. Perhaps that's due to the quality of our educators? I don't know. Could be.

To be completely honest, if you're this worried about one of your kids teachers being a former stripper, and the crazy influences this might have on your kid, you're a piss poor parent. You haven't prepared your kid for the real world at all.

I think that you have no idea what you are talking about. :lol: You're not much more than a kid yourself probably.

Would you marry a stripper?

Would you marry a stripper?

Yes, if I believed she truly loved me for me and not because I was saving her.

No, nothing but trouble there.

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