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"The House of Horrors" Gosnell case

Vote:

  • Yes, there probably are more abortion doctors like Gosnell

    Votes: 23 79.3%

  • No, Gosnell is an anomaly

    Votes: 6 20.7%
  • Total voters
    29
Gina said:
You are welcome.

Whichever procedure he performed, it was legal and that's the difference between him and Gosnell, cb.
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Oh yes, I knew it was legal, still, having once witnessed the procedure I cannot shake how wrong it is, legal or not.

That aside I find your pro-choice view reasonable. But then we both know the debate isn't ruled by those of us with reason on either side of the issue. The loud-shouters and cheerleaders have the field and suck the air out of the room.
 
Redress said:
Why are you trying to put words in my mouth?
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I wasn't! You said you couldn't think of the words and I was ASKING you if that's what you thought. There was a QUESTION MARK. Jeez louise.
 
Josie said:
I want to hear your opinion instead of presupposing what you think, Gina. I'm weird like that. :)

I guess I just don't understand why the feeling is there to have abortion be rare if it's just a simple procedure to get rid of some cells.
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But you asked the question Josie, so I was curious as to your thoughts why we wouldn't want it to be rare.

A woman undergoing an abortion is not clicking her heels. It's not like changing hair color. I guess you don't know anyone who has had one if you can describe it like that. There is a poster here who described her experience and she certainly wasn't.

All of the women whom I know who have had an abortion, thought long and hard about it. It wasn't a cavalier or capricious decision. They considered if there was a way to go through with the pregnancy, but none were in the position to do so. Relationship status, economics, the response of their family and continuing with their education were amongst the reasons they chose to abort. It's not a happy day. Why would I want lots of women to go through that? They aren't monsters and all of them became mothers later.
 
Gina said:
A woman undergoing an abortion is not clicking her heels. It's not like changing hair color. I guess you don't know anyone who has had one if you can describe it like that. There is a poster here who described her experience and she certainly wasn't.
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That's where my experience differs. I was an LVN in the late 70s at a hospital (in CA) that did abortions (they ceased this subsequently). So many of the abortions were obviously being used as after the fact birth control. The hospital stopped offering the procedure when repeat customers became the majority.
 
clownboy said:
Oh yes, I knew it was legal, still, having once witnessed the procedure I cannot shake how wrong it is, legal or not.

That aside I find your pro-choice view reasonable. But then we both know the debate isn't ruled by those of us with reason on either side of the issue. The loud-shouters and cheerleaders have the field and suck the air out of the room.
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CB, I support late term abortion to save the life of the mother, or if the fetus is dead or other necessary extreme cases. So I understand what you are saying.

Thank you. I wish the reasonable of either side controlled the debate. Sucking is a great adjective for what goes on in the place of clear headed discussion.
 
Gina said:
But you asked the question Josie, so I was curious as to your thoughts why we wouldn't want it to be rare.

A woman undergoing an abortion is not clicking her heels. It's not like changing hair color. I guess you don't know anyone who has had one if you can describe it like that. There is a poster here who described her experience and she certainly wasn't.
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Actually I've heard many women here and elsewhere who joke about their abortions and even applaud others for having abortions.

Gina said:
All of the women whom I know who have had an abortion, thought long and hard about it. It wasn't a cavalier or capricious decision. They considered if there was a way to go through with the pregnancy, but none were in the position to do so. Relationship status, economics, the response of their family and continuing with their education were amongst the reasons they chose to abort. It's not a happy day. Why would I want lots of women to go through that? They aren't monsters and all of them became mothers later.
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So actually we all believe the same thing (there IS a human being growing inside of you). It's just that some pro-choicers feel kinda bad about ending that life, but still feel morally okay about going ahead with it. And pro-lifers cannot even fathom doing that to their child. Kinda like a mercy killing, I guess. I don't want to put words into your mouth, though. Is that how you view it?
 
pbrauer said:
Silliest question I've heard in quite a time.
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Not really. How many times have we heard that abortions are just a simple procedure to rid the woman's body of some cells? It's not anything horrific or inhumane or murderous, they have said. It's just a parasite being removed from the body. It's like taking a tumor out! <<< all things I've heard from pro-choicers about abortions.

So if you want it to be rare, you must be placing some sort of moral relevance on it. If you have to think long and hard about having an abortion, something must be tugging at your heartstrings about it. Maybe it's NOT just a clump of cells. Maybe it's a human being.
 
Gina said:
CB, I support late term abortion to save the life of the mother, or if the fetus is dead or other necessary extreme cases. So I understand what you are saying.
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As do I, and can't imagine the horror of having to make such a decision. If anyone I knew and loved had to do that, make that terrible choice, and some asshat said boo to them about it, I'd take a bat to the commenter (and I am pro-life).
 
clownboy said:
That's where my experience differs. I was an LVN in the late 70s at a hospital (in CA) that did abortions (they ceased this subsequently). So many of the abortions were obviously being used as after the fact birth control. The hospital stopped offering the procedure when repeat customers became the majority.
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It's unfortunate that there are women for whom it's birth control. I guess for those women, it may not be a hard choice. This is why I advocate for free birth control. And not just pills, but the longer term varieties. In a study released last year, the group offered long term, took it. The abortion rate was reduced.

For the women I know, it was, even if they knew there was no way they could be mothers at that time, it was still sad.
 
sangha said:
Because we support family planning which reduces the # of unplanned and unwanted pregnancies.
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I also support using birth control. That doesn't really answer the question though. If you have an unwanted pregnancy, just get an abortion. What's the big deal, right?
 
Josie said:
I want to hear your opinion instead of presupposing what you think, Gina. I'm weird like that. :)

I guess I just don't understand why the feeling is there to have abortion be rare if it's just a simple procedure to get rid of some cells.
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All surgical procedures carry risks, as does pregnancy. I believe that all pregnancies should be planned, or at a minimum, wanted
 
Gina said:
It's unfortunate that there are women for whom it's birth control.
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I disagree

Abortion is *always* a form of birth control.

The phrase "using abortion as birth control" is an appeal to emotion meant to depict women as irresponsible and heartless. It's propoganda
 
Josie said:
I also support using birth control. That doesn't really answer the question though. If you have an unwanted pregnancy, just get an abortion. What's the big deal, right?
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Sometimes right. Sometimes wrong

That may be a hard concept to grasp if one sees everything in black and white, or right and wrong
 
Josie said:
Actually I've heard many women here and elsewhere who joke about their abortions and even applaud others for having abortions.



So actually we all believe the same thing (there IS a human being growing inside of you). It's just that some pro-choicers feel kinda bad about ending that life, but still feel morally okay about going ahead with it. And pro-lifers cannot even fathom doing that to their child. Kinda like a mercy killing, I guess. I don't want to put words into your mouth, though. Is that how you view it?
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Which women here? I haven't seen that and I've done my share of posting in the abortion forums.

It's a moral conundrum for lots of women Josie. "Kinda bad" is not how I would or did describe it. Mercy killing? No I wouldn't use that term either. There is a human growing inside, but not yet a child at gestational point where the greatest number of abortions take place. That is how I view it. I completely understand why a pro-choice woman could not make that decision for herself.
 
sangha said:
Sometimes right. Sometimes wrong

That may be a hard concept to grasp if one sees everything in black and white, or right and wrong
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When is it wrong to abort your unborn child?
 
Josie said:
When is it wrong to abort your unborn child?
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I never said it was ever wrong to abort a child

I said that your statement about abortion being a simple procedure is sometimes right, and sometimes wrong.

I suggest you stop trying your appeals to emotion on me, like describing abortion as a simple procedure. I don't give a damn how complicated it is. MCAB's are complicated, but everyone with blocked coronaries should have one.
 
Josie said:
Not really. How many times have we heard that abortions are just a simple procedure to rid the woman's body of some cells? It's not anything horrific or inhumane or murderous, they have said. It's just a parasite being removed from the body. It's like taking a tumor out! <<< all things I've heard from pro-choicers about abortions.

So if you want it to be rare, you must be placing some sort of moral relevance on it. If you have to think long and hard about having an abortion, something must be tugging at your heartstrings about it. Maybe it's NOT just a clump of cells. Maybe it's a human being.
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Those words are not my words, I'm pro choice, but I could never recommend a woman getting an abortion. And I would hope that woman thinks long and hard about her decision to get one.
 
sangha said:
I disagree

Abortion is *always* a form of birth control.

The phrase "using abortion as birth control" is an appeal to emotion meant to depict women as irresponsible and heartless. It's propoganda
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You are right and I can accept that statement. It's a hard issue for me sangha, but I do come down on the side of choice.
 
Josie said:
I wasn't! You said you couldn't think of the words and I was ASKING you if that's what you thought. There was a QUESTION MARK. Jeez louise.
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You asked if I meant something I did not say, imply, suggest, or was any way related to what I did say.
 
Gina said:
Which women here? I haven't seen that and I've done my share of posting in the abortion forums.
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I don't spend much time there anymore because it sickens me to hear these women talk about killing their unborn children and trying to justify it any way they can. I did spend a lot of time there when I first registered here, though..... there were people posting there that aren't here anymore....if that helps you.

Gina said:
It's a moral conundrum for lots of women Josie. "Kinda bad" is not how I would or did describe it. Mercy killing? No I wouldn't use that term either. There is a human growing inside, but not yet a child at gestational point where the greatest number of abortions take place. That is how I view it. I completely understand why a pro-choice woman could not make that decision for herself.
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So would you agree with me that an abortion at any stage is the killing of human life?

For the record, I wouldn't call it "mercy killing" either because it's not like the child is in any danger or in pain or anything. It's just that the mother doesn't want to carry the child, the mother thinks she cannot be a good mother, the mother thinks that she doesn't have the finances to take care of a child... whatever the reason may be.

To me, (and this will probably piss people off, but I don't care), most women who have abortions make that decision based on selfishness. "I don't want to be a mother." "I don't have the money to spend on a baby." "I want to have a career without having to take care of a child." "I don't want to be a single mother." And they know they're killing their baby, which is why they have to "think long and hard about it" and realize it's a "moral conundrum." They know exactly what they're doing - it tugs at their heart - it tugs at their moral compass - but they do it anyway. *sigh*
 
Josie said:
It's interesting how many people are ignoring this thread.
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Mostly because the question in and of itself lends itself to be ignored. This isn't common. You're more likely to get killed by some depressed white kid at a high school or a black gang banger in Chicago then you are to run into a clandestine abortion clinic. It's an anomaly and to treat it as anything more than that is absurd. The right wing however keeps trying to make this into an every day thing when they really can't prove such. The left on the other hand ignores the fact that this guy was a sick bastard operating outside the boundaries of what is legally acceptable. End of story and ignoring all the crying from conservatives & liberals:

1. This guy was performing illegal abortions and in some cases murder.
2. He hired unqualified people to help perform these.
3. They should all get the maximum penalty.
4. None of that has any bearing on the thousands of legal abortions carried out every year in the US.

:peace
 
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