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Is the world a better place without Saddam Hussein?

Is the world a better place without Saddam Hussein?


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There is no evidence, before, during or after the Iraq invasion that control of or access to Iraqi oil was a war aim. Protection of Saudi and Kuwaiti fields was an aim of the first Gulf war. The invasion of Iraq, if anything, was conducted contrary to U.S. economic interests. Your ideology blinds you to the obvious.:cool:

I've already documented the plan before the war recommended in Cheney's Task Force Report, Strategic Energy Challenges for the 21st Century.

And the new Iraq oil law that we helped draw up was a key benchmark for the new Iraq government:

"The oil law was drafted in 2006, after the first post-Saddam permanent government was formed. Then the Bush administration pushed it especially hard through 2007.

The law had three purposes. The first was to create a framework in which multinationals would have a primary role in developing Iraq’s oil industry, and to determine exactly the extent of that role, what rights they would have, and the extent of their powers. The second element was to clarify how that would work in an emerging federal system in Iraq. To put it simply: With whom would they sign contracts? Was it with the central government in Baghdad, or was it with regional governments—in particular, the only one that exists so far, the Kurdistan regional government?

The third element of the law was to essentially disempower parliament in relation to decisions around oil. . . .
Since 1967 Iraq has had a law in place, No. 97, which said if the government were to sign contracts to develop oil fields and run them, the parliament would have to sign a specific piece of legislation to approve them. [In other words,] the parliament would have to say, “We support and agree with this contract and we give it validity in law.” That was still in force in 2003, and indeed in 2006. The government could legally sign contacts with foreign companies. But if it did so, it would have to get the OK from parliament for them to have any force. Therefore, the most important role of the oil law of 2006/2007 was not [so much] to allow contracts to be signed by multinationals, as that was already possible. It was to allow them [i.e., the contracts] to be signed without parliament having any oversight.

Incidentally, the importance of parliamentary oversight is that oil accounts for over ninety-five percent of government revenue. So it is quite reasonable for parliament to have some say in how that works.

So this was the oil law. The United States, Britain, the International Monetary Fund (IMF), and other financial institutions wanted to see it passed as soon as possible once the permanent post-Saddam government was formed in May 2006. As soon as that happened, the United States and the Britain started to say, “your priority is going to be to pass the oil law.” I have documents from that period which make this very clear. They moved very quickly to draft an oil law in August 2006, and it basically delivered those three asks of it. Getting this law passed in parliament became the major political priority of the United States."

The Unfinished Story of Iraq's Oil Law: An Interview with Greg Muttitt
 
There was evidence of terrorist training camps in Iraq. Iraq was a terrorist's haven.

Positive test for terror toxins in Iraq - World news | NBC News

TERRORISTS TEMPTED BY TOXINS
MSNBC.com’s samples of ricin and botulinum, two deadly biological agents, were taken from the soles of a boot and a shoe recovered from the Sargat camp. The facility has been flattened by several Tomahawk cruise missiles, fired as part of the U.S. campaign against Ansar al-Islam.

The thick rubber boot twice tested positive for ricin, a toxin derived from castor beans. Ingesting a pinch of ricin, which causes shock and respiratory failure, can kill a human being within 72 hours. There is no cure.

A black running shoe, shredded by the U.S. bombing, tested positive for botulinum. U.S. officials say terrorists have a particular interest in botulinum and ricin toxins, which may be delivered through release in food and water. Botulism, the illness resulting from botulinum ingestion, is a muscle-paralyzing disease that can cause a person to stop breathing and die, according to the U.S. Centers for Disease Control.



Both the CIA and the Pentagon have determined there was neither WMD, nor a Saddam/al Qaeda link.
 
That's not the point. The point is some people seem to think he had "stopped killing." Well, that is just ridiculous IMO. He was obviously an insane madman, killing men, women, children and even babies pretty much indiscriminately. People lived in FEAR of this guy. The Iraqi people knew about the mass graves but were too afraid to speak of them because they knew better.

and yet the incidence of violent deaths among civilians was higher after madass insane was deposed.
 
I am sick of this wounded warrior bull**** where are injured vets have to beg for money to take care of their injuries...They should not have to beg for the money. They should get all he money they need to cover any injuries they have from the war.

If the nation wasn't so prone to sending its citizens off to get killed and injured invading foreign countries, they wouldn't be in that position.
 
Think about the impact of dictatorship on the environement and consider the reasoning I provided above. This is not rocket science.

I would like you to define democracy, because from where I am sitting, democracy doesn't look like its that good for ecology.

it COULD be, but not without education, and awareness.

that is not rocket science.
 
Both the CIA and the Pentagon have determined there was neither WMD, nor a Saddam/al Qaeda link.

Does not negate the FACT that Iraq was terrorist friendly and had many terrorist training camps and God only knows what else. Saddam was KNOWN to have produced and used chemical weapons in the past against foreign and domestic enemies. What makes you think he would suddenly change his ways, I don't know. The guy was a danger to his own people and a danger to the world as well. He was unstable and created a lot of instability in the region.

Now, the war has also caused instability in the region, but THAT is to be expected. It takes time to pick up the pieces and get back some stability. This is not some new idea. War tends to temporarily destabilize regions, but eventually things improve with time.
 
Not sure I need to. But there is no evidence of it happening. As I said, I even heard Iraqis say it wasn't happening before we invaded. Groups like the one I linked were very busy trying to chronicle all they could, and they had nothing. So, the evidence is fairly strong it wasn't.

Well, don't make silly claims about Saddam "stopping" killing people. Of course he kept his torture and murder of people a secret and try to hide it and any evidence of it. Hence all the mass graves. Now, just because those killings in my links were from the early to late 1990s, that does not mean that the man just stopped killing people.

And your statement that after the war started he stopped killing people is just ludicrous. Of course he stopped killing people in that period of time. He was on the run for his life. :lamo
 
Well, don't make silly claims about Saddam "stopping" killing people. Of course he kept his torture and murder of people a secret and try to hide it and any evidence of it. Hence all the mass graves. Now, just because those killings in my links were from the early to late 1990s, that does not mean that the man just stopped killing people.

And your statement that after the war started he stopped killing people is just ludicrous. Of course he stopped killing people in that period of time. He was on the run for his life. :lamo

No where do I claim after the war started the killing stopped. That's your misreading. Or a diversion, I'm not sure which.

By all we know, he was not killing that way at that time. So, my statement stands.
 
Because of insurgents loyal to the Baath party.

regardless of whether this is true or not (and not all of the violence is necessarily attributable to this), why was it higher after the invasion?
 
regardless of whether this is true or not (and not all of the violence is necessarily attributable to this), why was it higher after the invasion?

Seriously? Because Saddam was taken down, that's why. Some of those who agreed with and supported Saddam (members of the Baath party) rebelled and became insurgents against the United States and even their OWN people.
 
No where do I claim after the war started the killing stopped. That's your misreading. Or a diversion, I'm not sure which.

By all we know, he was not killing that way at that time. So, my statement stands.

Well, they say ignorance is bliss.
 
Does not negate the FACT that Iraq was terrorist friendly and had many terrorist training camps and God only knows what else. Saddam was KNOWN to have produced and used chemical weapons in the past against foreign and domestic enemies. What makes you think he would suddenly change his ways, I don't know. The guy was a danger to his own people and a danger to the world as well. He was unstable and created a lot of instability in the region.

Now, the war has also caused instability in the region, but THAT is to be expected. It takes time to pick up the pieces and get back some stability. This is not some new idea. War tends to temporarily destabilize regions, but eventually things improve with time.

here you go again, minimizing the suffering of the Iraqis.

I don't know if its callousness, or a lack of understanding that these are real people who are suffering.
 
Seriously? Because Saddam was taken down, that's why. Some of those who agreed with and supported Saddam (members of the Baath party) rebelled and became insurgents against the United States and even their OWN people.

so he is more powerful after his death?

does that mean the world is better off without him?
 
so he is more powerful after his death?

does that mean the world is better off without him?

Absolutely not. This is a common occurrence after ANY war. There were also insurgents after WW II and Vietnam. It takes TIME for things to settle down.
 
here you go again, minimizing the suffering of the Iraqis.

I don't know if its callousness, or a lack of understanding that these are real people who are suffering.

Acknowledging facts is not callousness. If all you want to do is cry, then go for it.
 
Well, they say ignorance is bliss.

Yes, indeedy, just like when Bremer, the USA's maximum leader in Iraq, disbanded the Baathist Iraq Army and let them all leave with their weapons to begin the insurgency. The screw up of the Century. GWShiiteForBrains gave him the Medal of Freedom and they still can't find Billions of dollars misplaced/unaccounted for under his stewardship.
 
Absolutely not. This is a common occurrence after ANY war. There were also insurgents after WW II and Vietnam. It takes TIME for things to settle down.

your argument is not consistent. If it is still taking time to settle down, maybe it is a bit premature to claim the world is a better place.
 
Yes, indeedy, just like when Bremer, the USA's maximum leader in Iraq, disbanded the Baathist Iraq Army and let them all leave with their weapons to begin the insurgency. The screw up of the Century. GWShiiteForBrains gave him the Medal of Freedom and they still can't find Billions of dollars misplaced/unaccounted for under his stewardship.

Again, how does this help the Iraqi people? The United States doesn't even know when to get involved in war, how to win a war. Ever hear of Sun Tzu?
 
disregarding the suffering caused by our actions is callousness.

No one is disregarding the suffering. Acknowledging that there will be suffering after war is not disregarding the suffering. Your statements make no sense.
 
Again, how does this help the Iraqi people? The United States doesn't even know when to get involved in war, how to win a war. Ever hear of Sun Tzu?


My post was accounting for the armed insurgency and the USA culpablility for that insurgency, not an al Queda project, but another USA screw up. That is the same insurgency that caused the deaths of hundreds o thousands of Iraqis that you refuse to blame on the USA, but we are responsible. You can't argue with stupid.
 
My post was accounting for the armed insurgency and the USA culpablility for that insurgency, not an al Queda project, but another USA screw up. That is the same insurgency that caused the deaths of hundreds o thousands of Iraqis that you refuse to blame on the USA, but we are responsible. You can't argue with stupid.

I never placed blame or no blame. That doesn't accomplish anything. That's right, you CAN'T argue with stupid and ignorance and people who want to dwell on mistakes and bad decisions and add fuel to the fire of hatred. Nice going.
 
I never placed blame or no blame. That doesn't accomplish anything. That's right, you CAN'T argue with stupid and ignorance and people who want to dwell on mistakes and bad decisions and add fuel to the fire of hatred. Nice going.


My point is that if you do not "acknowledge the mistakes of the past, you are doomed to repeat them," not to add fuel to any fires of hatred.
 
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