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Is the world a better place without Saddam Hussein?

Is the world a better place without Saddam Hussein?

  • Total voters
    102
Boo Radley said:
You make the same mistake many do. It's not when you fine it that matters in this debate, but when they were killed:




This was when we were watching and doing nothing, and anytime near 2003. It was a very specific place and time
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Oh no?

From my second link:

Then, in March 1999, thousands more were believed to have been arrested, imprisoned and in some cases executed after a second uprising broke out after the killing of a prominent Shiite cleric.
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Read more: Mass graves found across Iraq | Mail Online
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

Addendum: Also, many, many more are still missing. People disappeared all the time in Iraq.
 
ChrisL said:
Better?

Mass graves found across Iraq | Mail Online
Click to expand...


Saddam did much worse when we supported him.

"# Reprisal Against Dujail

On July 8, 1982, Saddam Hussein was visiting the town of Dujail (50 miles north of Baghdad) when a group of Dawa militants shot at his motorcade. In reprisal for this assassination attempt, the entire town was punished. More than 140 fighting-age men were apprehended and never heard from again. Approximately 1,500 other townspeople, including children, were rounded up and taken to prison, where many were tortured. After a year or more in prison, many were exiled to a southern desert camp. The town itself was destroyed; houses were bulldozed and orchards were demolished.

Though Saddam's reprisal against Dujail is considered one of his lesser-known crimes, it has been chosen as the first for which he will be tried.

# Anfal Campaign

Officially from February 23 to September 6, 1988 (but often thought to extend from March 1987 to May 1989), Saddam Hussein's regime carried out the Anfal (Arabic for "spoils") campaign against the large Kurdish population in northern Iraq. The purpose of the campaign was ostensibly to reassert Iraqi control over the area; however, the real goal was to permanently eliminate the Kurdish problem.

The campaign consisted of eight stages of assault, where up to 200,000 Iraqi troops attacked the area, rounded up civilians, and razed villages. Once rounded up, the civilians were divided into two groups: men from ages of about 13 to 70 and women, children, and elderly men. The men were then shot and buried in mass graves. The women, children, and elderly were taken to relocation camps where conditions were deplorable. In a few areas, especially areas that put up even a little resistance, everyone was killed.

Hundreds of thousands of Kurds fled the area, yet it is estimated that up to 182,000 were killed during the Anfal campaign. Many people consider the Anfal campaign an attempt at genocide.

# Chemical Weapons Against Kurds

As early as April 1987, the Iraqis used chemical weapons to remove Kurds from their villages in northern Iraq during the Anfal campaign. It is estimated that chemical weapons were used on approximately 40 Kurdish villages, with the largest of these attacks occurring on March 16, 1988 against the Kurdish town of Halabja.

Beginning in the morning on March 16, 1988 and continuing all night, the Iraqis rained down volley after volley of bombs filled with a deadly mixture of mustard gas and nerve agents on Halabja. Immediate effects of the chemicals included blindness, vomiting, blisters, convulsions, and asphyxiation. Approximately 5,000 women, men, and children died within days of the attacks. Long-term effects included permanent blindness, cancer, and birth defects. An estimated 10,000 lived, but live daily with the disfigurement and sicknesses from the chemical weapons.

Saddam Hussein's cousin, Ali Hassan al-Majid was directly in charge of the chemical attacks against the Kurds, earning him the epithet, "Chemical Ali."

Crimes of Saddam Hussein
 
Catawba said:
Saddam did much worse when we supported him.

"# Reprisal Against Dujail

On July 8, 1982, Saddam Hussein was visiting the town of Dujail (50 miles north of Baghdad) when a group of Dawa militants shot at his motorcade. In reprisal for this assassination attempt, the entire town was punished. More than 140 fighting-age men were apprehended and never heard from again. Approximately 1,500 other townspeople, including children, were rounded up and taken to prison, where many were tortured. After a year or more in prison, many were exiled to a southern desert camp. The town itself was destroyed; houses were bulldozed and orchards were demolished.

Though Saddam's reprisal against Dujail is considered one of his lesser-known crimes, it has been chosen as the first for which he will be tried.

# Anfal Campaign

Officially from February 23 to September 6, 1988 (but often thought to extend from March 1987 to May 1989), Saddam Hussein's regime carried out the Anfal (Arabic for "spoils") campaign against the large Kurdish population in northern Iraq. The purpose of the campaign was ostensibly to reassert Iraqi control over the area; however, the real goal was to permanently eliminate the Kurdish problem.

The campaign consisted of eight stages of assault, where up to 200,000 Iraqi troops attacked the area, rounded up civilians, and razed villages. Once rounded up, the civilians were divided into two groups: men from ages of about 13 to 70 and women, children, and elderly men. The men were then shot and buried in mass graves. The women, children, and elderly were taken to relocation camps where conditions were deplorable. In a few areas, especially areas that put up even a little resistance, everyone was killed.

Hundreds of thousands of Kurds fled the area, yet it is estimated that up to 182,000 were killed during the Anfal campaign. Many people consider the Anfal campaign an attempt at genocide.

# Chemical Weapons Against Kurds

As early as April 1987, the Iraqis used chemical weapons to remove Kurds from their villages in northern Iraq during the Anfal campaign. It is estimated that chemical weapons were used on approximately 40 Kurdish villages, with the largest of these attacks occurring on March 16, 1988 against the Kurdish town of Halabja.

Beginning in the morning on March 16, 1988 and continuing all night, the Iraqis rained down volley after volley of bombs filled with a deadly mixture of mustard gas and nerve agents on Halabja. Immediate effects of the chemicals included blindness, vomiting, blisters, convulsions, and asphyxiation. Approximately 5,000 women, men, and children died within days of the attacks. Long-term effects included permanent blindness, cancer, and birth defects. An estimated 10,000 lived, but live daily with the disfigurement and sicknesses from the chemical weapons.

Saddam Hussein's cousin, Ali Hassan al-Majid was directly in charge of the chemical attacks against the Kurds, earning him the epithet, "Chemical Ali."

Crimes of Saddam Hussein
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That's not the point. The point is some people seem to think he had "stopped killing." Well, that is just ridiculous IMO. He was obviously an insane madman, killing men, women, children and even babies pretty much indiscriminately. People lived in FEAR of this guy. The Iraqi people knew about the mass graves but were too afraid to speak of them because they knew better.
 
Catawba said:
You better reread what you just linked because it doesn't make your case that the war wasn't about oil.
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It does indeed. The interviewee has an opinion but his own data don't bear it out. Fact is that there has been no attempt to push US oil companies into a strong position in Iraq.
 
Jack Hays said:
It does indeed. The interviewee has an opinion but his own data don't bear it out. Fact is that there has been no attempt to push US oil companies into a strong position in Iraq.
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That's what I wonder about too. Where's all this super cheap oil that we "stole" from the Iraqis? :roll:
 
Catawba said:
You better reread what you just linked because it doesn't make your case that the war wasn't about oil.
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Something of interest.

American Firms Shut Out Of Iraq Oil Fields - Business Insider
www.businessinsider.com/american-firms-shut-out-iraq-oil-...
Robert Wile

by Robert Wile - in 70 Google+ circles - More by Robert Wile
American Energy Companies Have Been Almost Completely Shut Out Of Iraq's Oil Fields. Rob Wile | Oct. 10, 2012, 12:28 PM | 3,071 | 15 ...

:cool:
 
ChrisL said:
That's not the point. The point is some people seem to think he had "stopped killing." Well, that is just ridiculous IMO. He was obviously an insane madman, killing men, women, children and even babies pretty much indiscriminately. People lived in FEAR of this guy. The Iraqi people knew about the mass graves but were too afraid to speak of them because they knew better.
Click to expand...


The point is that our support or non-support of Saddam depended on our interests, not his brutality.
 
Catawba said:
The point is that our support or non-support of Saddam depended on our interests, not his brutality.
Click to expand...

A lot of these graves were not even known about until the invasion.
 
Jack Hays said:
It does indeed. The interviewee has an opinion but his own data don't bear it out. Fact is that there has been no attempt to push US oil companies into a strong position in Iraq.
Click to expand...

Until our invasion and occupation, US and British oil companies were completely locked out of one of the biggest oil reserves left on the planet.
 
ChrisL said:
Oh no?

From my second link:



Read more: Mass graves found across Iraq | Mail Online
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

Addendum: Also, many, many more are still missing. People disappeared all the time in Iraq.
Click to expand...

Believed? In some cases? Well, that's powerful. But again, related to an uprising. And some cases don't give us any sense of how many. And that was still four full years. Not 2003.
 
Boo Radley said:
Believed? In some cases? Well, that's powerful. But again, related to an uprising. And some cases don't give us any sense of how many. And that was still four full years. Not 2003.
Click to expand...

But you made the claim that he "stopped killing." That is just so . . .
 
Jack Hays said:
Something of interest.

American Firms Shut Out Of Iraq Oil Fields - Business Insider
www.businessinsider.com/american-firms-shut-out-iraq-oil-...
Robert Wile

by Robert Wile - in 70 Google+ circles - More by Robert Wile
American Energy Companies Have Been Almost Completely Shut Out Of Iraq's Oil Fields. Rob Wile | Oct. 10, 2012, 12:28 PM | 3,071 | 15 ...

:cool:
Click to expand...


All that shows is that Cheney had a ****ty plan. Without a US military occupation as McCain wanted, there was no way to get the Iraqis to abide by the new oil law we helped draw up. Still they have an interest now in Iraq oil they didn't have before, and they have an interest in the Kurdish oil wells they didn't have before. None of which could have happened without our invasion and occupation.
 
ChrisL said:
But you made the claim that he "stopped killing." That is just so . . .
Click to expand...

In 2003. Sure, an uprising might start it again. But there was no uprising, there was no such killing at that time. We brought the killing in 2003, adding injury to injury as I said. When those killings were taking place, we did nothing. To be humanitian, as I liked, it must be active.
 
ChrisL said:
A lot of these graves were not even known about until the invasion.
Click to expand...

Which is even more proof they were not the motive for our invasion and occupation.
 
Boo Radley said:
In 2003. Sure, an uprising might start it again. But there was no uprising, there was no such killing at that time. We brought the killing in 2003, adding injury to injury as I said. When those killings were taking place, we did nothing. To be humanitian, as I liked, it must be active.
Click to expand...

What exactly are you claiming now? Saddam stopped killing because he was running for his life! :roll:
 
Catawba said:
Which is even more proof they were not the motive for our invasion and occupation.
Click to expand...

There was evidence of terrorist training camps in Iraq. Iraq was a terrorist's haven.

Positive test for terror toxins in Iraq - World news | NBC News

TERRORISTS TEMPTED BY TOXINS
MSNBC.com’s samples of ricin and botulinum, two deadly biological agents, were taken from the soles of a boot and a shoe recovered from the Sargat camp. The facility has been flattened by several Tomahawk cruise missiles, fired as part of the U.S. campaign against Ansar al-Islam.

The thick rubber boot twice tested positive for ricin, a toxin derived from castor beans. Ingesting a pinch of ricin, which causes shock and respiratory failure, can kill a human being within 72 hours. There is no cure.

A black running shoe, shredded by the U.S. bombing, tested positive for botulinum. U.S. officials say terrorists have a particular interest in botulinum and ricin toxins, which may be delivered through release in food and water. Botulism, the illness resulting from botulinum ingestion, is a muscle-paralyzing disease that can cause a person to stop breathing and die, according to the U.S. Centers for Disease Control.
 
ChrisL said:
What exactly are you claiming now? Saddam stopped killing because he was running for his life! :roll:
Click to expand...

No. Before we invaded in 2003, no such killing. Not in 2002 either. There was no such killing.
 
Catawba said:
All that shows is that Cheney had a ****ty plan. Without a US military occupation as McCain wanted, there was no way to get the Iraqis to abide by the new oil law we helped draw up. Still they have an interest now in Iraq oil they didn't have before, and they have an interest in the Kurdish oil wells they didn't have before. None of which could have happened without our invasion and occupation.
Click to expand...

There is no evidence, before, during or after the Iraq invasion that control of or access to Iraqi oil was a war aim. Protection of Saudi and Kuwaiti fields was an aim of the first Gulf war. The invasion of Iraq, if anything, was conducted contrary to U.S. economic interests. Your ideology blinds you to the obvious.:cool:
 
ChrisL said:
You don't know that.
Click to expand...

Not sure I need to. But there is no evidence of it happening. As I said, I even heard Iraqis say it wasn't happening before we invaded. Groups like the one I linked were very busy trying to chronicle all they could, and they had nothing. So, the evidence is fairly strong it wasn't.
 
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