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Should drinking/smoking while pregnant be illegal?

Morality Games

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Prevailing culture norms in the United States make either a rare occurrence (only 1/13 women drink while pregnant), but it isn't illegal to do either. Considering the health factors involved, I was going to say 'yes', but it doesn't seem plausible to outlaw either behavior before a state's abortion deadline.
 
Prevailing culture norms in the United States make either a rare occurrence (only 1/13 women drink while pregnant), but it isn't illegal to do either. Considering the health factors involved, I was going to say 'yes', but it doesn't seem plausible to outlaw either behavior before a state's abortion deadline.

Even though abortion is legal, this should be considered severe child abuse, or at least punishable to a similar degree. I see it as one of the worst forms thereof, in fact, as the damage can be permanent.

People sometimes lose certain rights as a result of their criminal acts. I find this to be an act that is criminal enough in nature to call for a suspension or termination of reproductive rights.
 
I don’t see how it could be enforced without serious risk of infringing on one’s liberties. How would you enforce it? How do you know if the person is pregnant or not (it isn’t always obvious). What is the punishment for having a glass of wine while pregnant? People who aren’t swayed by changing their behavior for the sake of the health of their child aren’t going to change it to avoid a fine.

It is like smoking in your car or home when there are children inside it with you. I think that is despicable and part of me thinks it should be outlawed. But enforcing it would be way too problematic.
 
I don’t see how it could be enforced without serious risk of infringing on one’s liberties.

That's what we do when people commit crimes against their children. We infringe on their liberties via due process.
 
That's what we do when people commit crimes against their children. We infringe on their liberties via due process.

And it is hard enough to do correctly when the victim is an actual child standing there who can talk and show bruises. I can’t see how this would work effectively on a woman one thinks is pregnant. I am open to suggestions on how it would work, though.
 
Life has risks. Quit trying to throw everyone with a vice in prison.
 
I say no. Women have been smoking, drinking and having babies for a very long time sucessfully.

I suspect quite a few babies are conceived by drinking before and smoking after conception.
 
Even though abortion is legal, this should be considered severe child abuse, or at least punishable to a similar degree. I see it as one of the worst forms thereof, in fact, as the damage can be permanent.

People sometimes lose certain rights as a result of their criminal acts. I find this to be an act that is criminal enough in nature to call for a suspension or termination of reproductive rights.

And a man who drives over the speed limit with a pregnant woman should be charged with the additional felony charge of child endangerment too, right?
 
My Japanese better half thinks our American consensus against (moderate) drinking or eating sashimi while pregnant is hilarious.

I tried to argue that these are not "mere superstitions", and looked up the literature, and...well....turns out, there's not a whole lot of evidence.

Even in the studies that came anywhere close to statistical credibility, drinking alcohol was not dissociated from other "life-style" factors - like social status, conditions at work, amount of stress, or hours of sleep per day.

A chronic alcoholic mother is more likely to have a sick child (duh). But does it mean that a glass of pinot noir that is supposed to be good for you (resveratrol, and all that) is bad for the baby? Generations of Italians, Frenchmen and Spaniards can testify that it is hardly the case.

(Well, the baby will be apparently more likely to vote for dysfunctional socialist governments when he grows up; but our own sobering experience suggests that this kind of brain damage is not directly related to ethanol consumption).
 
This is why giving fetuses the right to life is tantamount to enslaving women. As soon as you limit their rights while pregnant, you've effectively opened the door to womens' activites being monitored and restricted at all times between the ages of 12 and 50. Unless she's had a hysterectomy, any sexually active woman can be pregnant at any time-- and any woman can become pregnant at any time with or without her consent.
 
This is why giving fetuses the right to life is tantamount to enslaving women. As soon as you limit their rights while pregnant, you've effectively opened the door to womens' activites being monitored and restricted at all times between the ages of 12 and 50. Unless she's had a hysterectomy, any sexually active woman can be pregnant at any time-- and any woman can become pregnant at any time with or without her consent.

Actually having a child that's any age potentially limits rights of the parents had before they were parents. Parents cannot legally go out and leave a newborn alone. They cannot let the kid starve while they use that money for something they'd rather have. In fact they are legally responsible for that kids actions until he's 18, so you could argue that parenthood is a form of slavery. Does that mean a parent should be able to terminate the life of the child at any age they're responsible for him/her to free themselves from the slavery?
 
Absolutely not. People need to learn to mind their own damn business.
 
Actually having a child that's any age potentially limits rights of the parents had before they were parents. Parents cannot legally go out and leave a newborn alone. They cannot let the kid starve while they use that money for something they'd rather have. In fact they are legally responsible for that kids actions until he's 18, so you could argue that parenthood is a form of slavery. Does that mean a parent should be able to terminate the life of the child at any age they're responsible for him/her to free themselves from the slavery?

Parents can absolve themselves of those responsibilities at any time by finding someone else to assume them. Not to mention that people know whether or not they are parents at all times and in most cases do not suddenly become parents without warning.
 
And a man who drives over the speed limit with a pregnant woman should be charged with the additional felony charge of child endangerment too, right?

Are people charged with felonies when they speed with their kids in the car?
 
Life has risks. Quit trying to throw everyone with a vice in prison.

When it results in permanent damage to a child, that's your response? "Life has risks?"

A chronic alcoholic mother is more likely to have a sick child (duh).

People get sick and recover from sickness. Having static encephalopathy isn't being sick. It's having permanent brain damage.
 
Prevailing culture norms in the United States make either a rare occurrence (only 1/13 women drink while pregnant), but it isn't illegal to do either. Considering the health factors involved, I was going to say 'yes', but it doesn't seem plausible to outlaw either behavior before a state's abortion deadline.

Practicality is a really, really big issue here. Especially when you factor in the reality of the way alcohol causes damage.

Some women may not realize they're pregnant through the entire first trimester. It's actually not terribly uncommon.

However, the first trimester is when alcohol causes the most damage to a ZEF.

So how the hell are you going to prove that they knowingly consumed alcohol while pregnant when even the most well-intentioned woman can mess it up?

Also, this paves a very easy gateway to some serious ethical violations. And we have already seen examples of how bad this can get. For example, a woman being criminally charged for with "murder" of the fetus when she attempted suicide. This was a woman who was mentally ill to the extent of being willing to take her own life, and everyone was more concerned about the ZEF.

There is no way to enforce this, either practically or ethically.
 
There is no way to enforce this, either practically or ethically.

It's not practical to remove kids from their homes/families and place them with strangers, but we do it despite all practical hassle when the alternative is worse for the child.

The tough thing about some ethical dilemmas is that doing nothing is also ethically questionable. On this issue we're doing pretty much nothing.
 
It's not practical to remove kids from their homes/families and place them with strangers, but we do it despite all practical hassle when the alternative is worse for the child.

The tough thing about some ethical dilemmas is that doing nothing is also ethically questionable. On this issue we're doing pretty much nothing.

There's two big differences here.

1. The parent of a born child knows that said child exists. A woman during the most dangerous time of pregnancy in terms of FAS risk may not even know she's pregnant. Are you going to tell me you're fine with imprisoning a woman for harming a fetus she didn't know was there? If it's legal for her to drink when she's not pregnant, and she didn't think she was pregnant, on what grounds are you going to argue that case?

2. The inescapable fact that it is still her body. It is preposterous for me to support legal abortion, and then turn around and make harming a fetus a punishable offense. A fetus is not a person with rights. The woman is. And the amount of invasive and violating molestation that would be necessary to even try to enforce this would be amongst the worst human rights offenses in history. I want no part of it.
 
When it results in permanent damage to a child, that's your response? "Life has risks?"



People get sick and recover from sickness. Having static encephalopathy isn't being sick. It's having permanent brain damage.

I'm sorry, but you can't put a pregnant woman in a bubble. Millions of women have had a drink or a smoke while pregnant -- knowingly or not -- and while it's certainly not the healthiest activity, the real-life risks to moderate imbibing are very, very small. I certainly don't advise drinking or smoking while pregnant, but I find the push to criminalize it more distasteful than the act itself.
 
Prevailing culture norms in the United States make either a rare occurrence (only 1/13 women drink while pregnant), but it isn't illegal to do either. Considering the health factors involved, I was going to say 'yes', but it doesn't seem plausible to outlaw either behavior before a state's abortion deadline.
Of course it shouldn't be illegal, how silly can you get?


I should note that it is already immoral in many circles but that's beside the point.

Are people charged with felonies when they speed with their kids in the car?
No, but using your logic they should be. They should also be penalized for living downwind of an air pollution source, not making their kids drink bottled water, and letting them play on the jungle gym. (I mean, seriously, we all know kids can break their arms and legs falling off those things, so it's obvious child endangerment.)

What about sports? If the school can't take responsibility for injuries doesn't that tell us those sports are dangerous? Obvious child endangerment admitted by authority in those cases. They should be outlawed instead of sanctioned!!! :mad:
 
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There is no way of enforcing such a law except post-factum. Basically, if a woman drinks and smokes at such a level that it endagers the child, when the child will be born and tests will be made, it will be detectable if the woman behaved irresponsably while she was pregnant, and yes, if she did harm the child through her behavior, she should be prosecuted.

However, there is no way of making a law that states that it is illegal for women who are pregnant to smoke and drink. I mean, if you make it... you can't possibly enforce it and it will just, most likely, backfire.

What you can do is create, what we have created, a culture that encourages and applauds women who behave responsibly towards their unborn children and discourages reckless behavior.

And if we are talking about the society way of dealing with problems, men, when trying to have children with their spouses, should also quit smoking.
 
If smoking & drinking are *that bad*, shouldn't they be completely illegal for everybody?

We tried that once, it didn't go well.

Oddly enough, I could see this argument falling along abortion lines. (Resulting in a reverse of what one might expect on ideologicl lines) Someone who thinks a fetus is a person should think harming that person is illegal. Someone who thinks life begins later would think there's nothing to harm until whatever arbitrary stage of development they see as that changing.
 
Prevailing culture norms in the United States make either a rare occurrence (only 1/13 women drink while pregnant), but it isn't illegal to do either. Considering the health factors involved, I was going to say 'yes', but it doesn't seem plausible to outlaw either behavior before a state's abortion deadline.

I hate to see a woman smoke, drink or do anything that is potentially harmful to the child, which in the end could not only result in an unhealthy child, but a big strain on society given that this "wise" mother is on the public tit.

That being said I would still say no. The government has no business whatsoever telling a women what she can or cannot do, and/or what decisions she can make.
 
If smoking & drinking are *that bad*, shouldn't they be completely illegal for everybody?

These vices have extremely strong correlations with health problems with chronic users, but it should not be illegal. If that were the case, government would be prohibiting certain behaviors, thus we would not be considered free.
 
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