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Who will Democrats blame for the failure of Obamacare?

Who to Blame for Obamacares' Failures?


  • Total voters
    70
Do you actually know what all that means? These folks who will no longer have employer based insurance CAN have the government plan.

No, there is no government plan, remember? The Public Option got squashed. What they can do is take a government subsidy if they qualify. And so the point - that the President's claim that "if you like your insurance you can keep it" was false - remains.

So they will not lose insurance...

Objectively they will. You are simply claiming that they may replace it. If I steal your car and you go out and buy another, you have still lost a car.

they can CHOOSE to switch or they too can CHOOSE to pay penalties. You need to look beyond just the black and white of the matter. Your quote did not accurately represent what will occur.

No, you want to tack on something to the point. Which is well and good - it's a worthy point. For those making less than 400% of the poverty line, Obamacare offers a subsidy for those who lose their insurance to help them purchase insurance through the exchanges. The problem being that (and this is why I brought it up) the bronze plan for those exchanges for a family of 5 (a family my size) is going to be $20,000 in 2016. According to that famously rabid right wing blog, the Internal Revenue Service.
 
....you realize that you making an ad sourcinem and a just-so statement in tandem does not, actually, constitute "being shown"?

I linked and quoted the CBO releases, in this very thread. You know, the CBO reports you had to have others tell you about. I read them myself. I like raw data and thinking for myself. By the way, one of the primary goals of ACA was to increase the number of insured, which that same CBO report shows is exactly what is going to happen, which is again shown in this very thread. So apparently your definition of failure is to do as it is intended.
 
I linked and quoted the CBO releases, in this very thread. You know, the CBO reports you had to have others tell you about. I read them myself. I like raw data and thinking for myself. By the way, one of the primary goals of ACA was to increase the number of insured, which that same CBO report shows is exactly what is going to happen, which is again shown in this very thread. So apparently your definition of failure is to do as it is intended.


That is correct - the net number of insured will go up, according to the CBO (I think they depend too much on people not seeking free rider status, but that's a different debate).

Unfortunately the ACA was sold as a way to get insurance to the "40 million uninsured", and it turns out that we are going to spend a trillion plus and only get insurance to about 10 million of those.
 
:) let's quote the actual article and see:



See the whole "pushed out of their job based insurance coverage" bit? It doesn't say that 7 million people will choose to pay the penalties, it says that their employers will choose to pay the penalties. Look, it's in the second paragraph:



You will notice that the "they" is the businesses, not the individuals.


Funny you should say so - it seems that you are the one who has inaccurately described the article. Now, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt - I don't think you did it because you are inherently untruthful. I think you just skimmed the article and took away a false impression. But perhaps you should make sure before you accuse others of duplicity, eh? :)

You do realize that the CBO stated that those covered by employer insurance will go up every year, right? Do you know why the CBO increased the estimate of those who would be dropped by employers? Here, let me quote the CBO report:

Lower marginal tax rates under the American Taxpayer Relief Act reduce the tax benefit associated with employment-based health insurance and will lead to a greater reduction in such coverage and higher enrollment in insurance exchanges than previously estimated by CBO and JCT.

http://www.cbo.gov/sites/default/files/cbofiles/attachments/43907-BudgetOutlook.pdf

Yup, that's right, lower taxes caused it.
 
That is correct - the net number of insured will go up, according to the CBO (I think they depend too much on people not seeking free rider status, but that's a different debate).

Unfortunately the ACA was sold as a way to get insurance to the "40 million uninsured", and it turns out that we are going to spend a trillion plus and only get insurance to about 10 million of those.

27 million actually. Read the actual report, don't let others tell you what it says: http://www.cbo.gov/sites/default/files/cbofiles/attachments/43907-BudgetOutlook.pdf
 
This is skewing reality, and seeing how some on your side have enjoyed lambasting people for obvious skews through omission, I figured I'd join in.

You state the "ideas" of the Bill were republican in origin, obviously trying to suggest multiple and giving no atempt what so ever to specific which but to simply state it broadly and to give no input as to the context of those ideas. To borrow a phrase from another poster here...this is like a child eating just his dessert and saying that he ate what was given to him. In terms of the ACA and the former republican "ideas":


At best you can say SOME of hte ideas were "republican" in origin, and even that is just picking at dessert while ignoring the main course.

Why didn't you just google "republican healthcare plan 1993"?


"In November, 1993, Sen. John Chafee, R-R.I., introduced what was considered to be one of the main Republican health overhaul proposals: "A bill to provide comprehensive reform of the health care system of the United States."

Titled the "Health Equity and Access Reform Today Act of 1993," it had 21 co-sponsors, including two Democrats (Sens. Boren and Kerrey). The bill, which was not debated or voted upon, was an alternative to President Bill Clinton's plan. It bears similarity to the Democratic bill passed by the Senate Dec. 24, 2009, the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act.

Here is a summary of the 1993 bill:

Summary Of A 1993 Republican Health Reform Plan - Kaiser Health News

^^^ Almost half of the Republican Senate endorsed it.


"The concept that people should be required to buy health coverage was fleshed out more than two decades ago by a number of conservative economists, embraced by scholars at conservative research groups, including the Heritage Foundation and the American Enterprise Institute, and championed, for a time, by Republicans in the Senate...."
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/15/h...e-was-first-backed-by-conservatives.html?_r=0

"Romney’s signature legislative achievement served as the model for Obamacare. But as Romney said in a debate in Las Vegas last October, “we got the idea of an individual mandate…from [Newt Gingrich], and [Newt] got it from the Heritage Foundation.” "......
The Tortuous History of Conservatives and the Individual Mandate - Forbes
 
You do realize that the CBO stated that those covered by employer insurance will go up every year, right? Do you know why the CBO increased the estimate of those who would be dropped by employers? Here, let me quote the CBO report:
Lower marginal tax rates under the American Taxpayer Relief Act reduce the tax benefit associated with employment-based health insurance and will lead to a greater reduction in such coverage and higher enrollment in insurance exchanges than previously estimated by CBO and JCT.

I love that you quote this. Describe for us what you think is meant by the words "a greater reduction in such coverage". :)


Let's quote at length here to see where the disparity lies:

...For the 2013–2022 period, technical changes to estimates for the Medicaid program have reduced projections for spending by $236 billion (or 5.5 percent) relative to CBO’s estimates in August 2012. (Changes to estimates of Medicaid outlays related to legislation or economic factors amounted only to $3 billion.) The revisions reflect both lower anticipated enrollment in Medicaid and lower expected costs per person. CBO now estimates that enrollment in 2022, for example, will be about 84 million, compared with the 85 million it projected last August. Although CBO projects that more people will enroll in Medicaid for the first time because of the Affordable Care Act’s expansion of the program, the agency’s projection of the number of people who would have been covered by Medicaid in the absence of that act has declined by a greater amount. Lower estimated Medicaid enrollment among those other groups is, in part, the result of improvements in CBO’s methods for forecasting the number of people with insurance. More people are now expected to have insurance through other sources (primarily employers), resulting in lower projected enrollment in Medicaid....

You will note that the "more people will have insurance through other sources (primarily employers)" was not based off of current numbers but rather off of the baseline of assumed losses that includes employers but does not state that the growth from that baseline comes from them. You will note if you skip to page 60 that the raw amount of employer-penalty increases from the 2012 to the 2013 estimates while the individual penalty amounts goes down, indicating that more employers are pushing people off their insurance rolls than previously estimated, and more individuals are purchasing on the exchanges than previously estimated.

Oh, and look, the chart even has those handy little explanations at the bottom:

The change in employment-based coverage is the net result of projected increases in and losses of offers of health insurance from employers and projected changes in enrollment by workers and their families

That net change between 2012 and 2013? -4 Million people; with a total of 7 million people now projected to lose offers of health insurance from employers.


Oh look, if we skip from there on to page 64 we run into the most interesting paragraph.

Fewer People with Employment-Based Coverage
In 2022, by CBO and JCT’s estimate, 7 million fewer people will have employment-based health insurance as a result of the Affordable Care Act; in August, that figure was estimated to be about 4 million people. The revision is the net effect of several considerations, with the largest factor being the reduction in marginal tax rates, which reduces the tax benefits associated with health insurance provided by employers. The increased movement out of employment-based coverage also reflects revisions to CBO’s projections of income over time and higher projections of employment-based coverage in the absence of the Affordable Care Act. Reductions in employment-based health insurance coverage boost federal tax revenues because they increase the proportion of compensation received by workers that is taxable. (That effect is included in Table A-2 in the line labeled “Other Effects on Tax Revenues and Outlays.”) Although a greater reduction in the number of people with employment-based coverage is expected, the projected increase in revenues from changes in the taxability of compensation is now $53 billion less for the 2013–2022 period than was projected in August because of the lower tax rates enacted in the American Taxpayer Relief Act and because of other technical changes.

Gosh, that doesn't sound at all like

Redress said:
You do realize that the CBO stated that those covered by employer insurance will go up every year, right?

In fact, it sort of sounds like the exact opposite of that...


I dunno. Maybe you should read your own sources before you decide to throw around comments like

Redress said:
I read them myself. I like raw data and thinking for myself.

....because now it sort of looks like either you lied, or you lack reading comprehension.


I'm thinking it's neither - that in fact you scanned until a sentence that you thought would prove your point caught your eye, marched in here sure that because cpwill cited a conservative source it must have been twisting the truth, and are now caught.
 
It is clear that Obamacare, in its current form, will fail. The question is how long will it take for America and its government to move to a single payer system in order to save the nation's citizens from Obamacare. When the single payer system is instituted, Obamacare will be seen as the vehicle that got you there by forcing your hand. As such, Obama will be seen as the father of the single payer system.

There is a lot wrong with both the delivery of health care and its costs in Canada under our universal, single payer healthcare system, including the fact that much of healthcare now requires the individual to pay, but Tommy Douglas, who was instrumental in its inception in the early 1960's, is still deified here as the father of medicare.

Paying for your own health care? That's just crazy talk.
 
Why didn't you just google "republican healthcare plan 1993"?

Well it looks like somebody at least read it before not debating on it! ;)

Just because it was a Republican plan doesn't mean it was a good plan. It does address lawsuits more than the current mess but we didn't need a complete takeover of health insurance to accomplish that.
 
Our health care system isn't failed, our health care system does pretty doggone well. That's why we have a higher satisfaction rating than, for example, Canada. We just have a stupid way of paying for our healthcare, which has led to price explosion and needless administrative complexity.


True, IF you live in a vacuum and simply ignore the 46 million uninsured and the consequences of that, those who lose their homes, education for their kids, retirement, etc., due to health care costs...but yes, if you just SAY something you WANT to be the case, then it does seem like one has a great argument.

However, the US is actually way behind even those - ewwwwwwwww - SOCIALIST countries in health care.

THEN, conversely, if you just DECLARE a system that hasn't even been fully implemented OR had time to be tested a failure, again, just creating the reality you WANT for argument purposes, then sure, it FEELS like it is what you say it is.

Problem is, it isn't.

It really is time for Republicans to end the "we create reality now, and it's always just a coincidence that our created reality suits our POLITICS, namely our war against Democrats" era, don't you think?

Oh, and FYI: Massachusetts is still standing and doing okay, despite both Romneycare AND gay marriage! Imagine that!
 
Funny, because if you read the actual report what it says is that 26 million people will be on the exchanges, not that 26 million previously uninsured people will :).




The number of people expected to be uninsured under Obama- Care continues to climb, according to an analysis by the Congressional Budget Office. In March, the CBO estimated that 27 million people would still be uninsured in 2022. It now finds that 30 million will be uninsured 10 years from now.

Worth noting is that that was the August 2012 report. The one from 2013 now says once again that 27 million people will still be uninsured. So I suppose that I have indeed been eclipsed by the changing estimate - all that incredible spending in Obamacare isn't going to increase the number of insured by 10 million, but by 13 million. Out of the 40 million that it was billed as helping.

So, once again, you have apparently misread the report - it doesn't add 27 million to the insurance rolls, it still has 27 million off the insurance rolls.

You are reading the wrong line. -30 uninsured was the old projection, -27 million is the new projection.
 
Just a couple things cpwill since I am time limited right now. that -4 million is change in projection. 27 million more insured is the actual number by 2022.

Here is the chart with the actual projections for number of insured through employer: http://www.cbo.gov/sites/default/files/cbofiles/attachments/43900_ACAInsuranceCoverageEffects.pdf

Note that it clearly shows number of insured through the employer going from 154 to 167 million by 2023.

:doh That's the estimates for prior law coverage, Redress. As in "if we hadn't passed the ACA, this is what we estimate would have happened".

Note at the bottom of the page: Figures reflect average annual enrollment; individuals reporting multiple sources of coverage are assigned a primary source. To illustrate the effects of the Affordable Care Act, which is now current law, changes in coverage are shown compared with coverage projections in the absence of that legislation, or "prior law."


If you look at the columns below that where it says "change", you will note that the figures for Employer Based Coverage under the ACA read:

Employer: 1 * -2 -6 -7 -8 -8 -8 -7 -7 -7

The note associated with those numbers reads:

The change in employment-based coverage is the net result of increases in and losses of offers of health insurance from employers and changes in enrollment by workers and their families. For example, in 2019, an estimated 12 million people who would have had an offer of employment-based coverage under prior law will lose their offer under current law, and another 3 million people will have an offer of employment-based coverage but will enroll in health insurance from another source instead. These flows out of employment-based coverage will be partially offset by an estimated 7 million people who will newly enroll in employment-based coverage under the Affordable Care Act.

Again. If you are going to accuse others of misrepresentation, it may help to actually read those sources before you attempt to correct others on them. :)
 
You are reading the wrong line. -30 uninsured was the old projection, -27 million is the new projection.

That is precisely what I said. See where I say:

cpwill said:
Worth noting is that that was the August 2012 report. The one from 2013 now says once again that 27 million people will still be uninsured.

?

:)



Regardless, nowhere that I can see does it say that of the previously much-ballyhoo'd "40 million uninsured", that 27 million of those previously uninsured will be added to the insurance rolls, as you claimed.
 
Oh, and FYI: Massachusetts is still standing and doing okay, despite both Romneycare AND gay marriage! Imagine that!

Doing OK depends ...


"As a result of Chapter 58 of the Acts of 2006, Massachusetts has expanded coverage to 98% of its population through the shared responsibility of individuals and employers. It is essential that businesses and consumers be engaged in efforts to promote a value-based health care market. Providers cannot coordinate care without the alignment of varying interests of consumers, purchasing employers, and health insurers. We should not expect to fix the system by shifting the risk and responsibility for efficient care management from health insurers to providers through Accountable Care Organizations (―ACOs‖). A shift of payment methodology by itself is not the panacea to controlling costs. Moreover, the information we reviewed shows that the shift to global payments without other fundamental changes may not only fail to control cost, but may exacerbate market dysfunction and market inequities by establishing widely different per member per month rates based on historic pricing disparities.
The improvement of our health care system requires fundamental changes in how we purchase and pay for health care. Massachusetts is a national leader in health care. We face a unique opportunity and a shared responsibility to build upon the existing strengths in our health care system. The need for system reform and improvement has been recognized by Governor Patrick, legislative leaders, consumer groups, insurers, hospitals, health care providers, employers, and leading business associations. This effort will require the active participation of all these parties."

http://www.mass.gov/ago/docs/healthcare/2011-hcctd-full.pdf
 
Should note - this poll is prefaced upon the assumption that at some point the ability to deny what is happening will break, and they will have to blame somebody.
Well shoot, that's just political standard operating procedure.
 
True, IF you live in a vacuum and simply ignore the 46 million uninsured and the consequences of that, those who lose their homes, education for their kids, retirement, etc., due to health care costs...but yes, if you just SAY something you WANT to be the case, then it does seem like one has a great argument.

And who are the uninsured?

...For the record, according to the latest figures from the Census Bureau, 45.6 million Americans currently lack health insurance. This is actually down slightly from the 47 million that were uninsured in 2006. However, those numbers don’t tell the whole story.

For example, roughly one quarter of those counted as uninsured — 12 million people — are eligible for Medicaid and the State Children’s Health Insurance Program (S-CHIP), but haven’t enrolled. This includes 64 percent of all uninsured children, and 29 percent of parents with children. Since these people would be enrolled in those programs automatically if they went to the hospital for care, calling them uninsured is really a smokescreen.

Another 10 million uninsured “Americans” are, at least technically, not Americans. Approximately 5.6 million are illegal immigrants, and another 4.4 million are legal immigrants but not citizens.

Nor are the uninsured necessarily poor. A new study by June O’Neill, former director of the Congressional Budget Office, found that 43 percent of the uninsured have incomes higher than 250 percent of the poverty level ($55,125 for a family of four). And slightly more than a third have incomes in excess of $66,000. A second study, by Mark Pauly of the University of Pennsylvania and Kate Bundorf of Stanford, concluded that nearly three-quarters of the uninsured could afford coverage but chose not to purchase it.

And most of the uninsured are young and in good health. According to the CBO, roughly 60 percent are under the age of 35, and fully 86 percent report that they are in good or excellent health....

However, the US is actually way behind even those - ewwwwwwwww - SOCIALIST countries in health care.

based on what? certainly not actual provision of - you know - health care. because when it comes to that we beat them hands down. what we don't do as thorough a job as they do of is rationing; which I will admit, socialist nations are generally more prone to become experts at.
 
Doing OK depends ...


"As a result of Chapter 58 of the Acts of 2006, Massachusetts has expanded coverage to 98% of its population through the shared responsibility of individuals and employers. It is essential that businesses and consumers be engaged in efforts to promote a value-based health care market. Providers cannot coordinate care without the alignment of varying interests of consumers, purchasing employers, and health insurers. We should not expect to fix the system by shifting the risk and responsibility for efficient care management from health insurers to providers through Accountable Care Organizations (―ACOs‖). A shift of payment methodology by itself is not the panacea to controlling costs. Moreover, the information we reviewed shows that the shift to global payments without other fundamental changes may not only fail to control cost, but may exacerbate market dysfunction and market inequities by establishing widely different per member per month rates based on historic pricing disparities.
The improvement of our health care system requires fundamental changes in how we purchase and pay for health care. Massachusetts is a national leader in health care. We face a unique opportunity and a shared responsibility to build upon the existing strengths in our health care system. The need for system reform and improvement has been recognized by Governor Patrick, legislative leaders, consumer groups, insurers, hospitals, health care providers, employers, and leading business associations. This effort will require the active participation of all these parties."

http://www.mass.gov/ago/docs/healthcare/2011-hcctd-full.pdf


And? Your point? Where did I say Romneycare was perfect or a panacea? I said Mass. is still standing.

Btw, I've criticized RomneyObamacare all along as not doing the most important thing, controlling health care costs. But it DOES solve other problems.

You're looking at these things from only one side and ignoring the serious, serious flaws in our current system. Not good thinking OR debating.
 
good grief. Do some info. gathering, will you, please? Don't just SAY stuff you WANT to be the case.

YOU made the claim. You back it up.
 
YOU made the claim. You back it up.

Happy to do so. But are you acknowledging that you do NOT do your homework and are unaware of something everyone is aware of? I was simply saying, know what you're talking about before you comment. So, here we go, me doing YOUR homework. And we'll just run with the "your leftist sources" thing afterward, okay?

U.S. Ranks Last Among Seven Countries on Health System Performance Based on Measures of Quality, Efficiency, Access, Equity, and Healthy Lives - The Commonwealth Fund

Health Costs: How the U.S. Compares With Other Countries | PBS NewsHour

The 36 Best Healthcare Systems In The World - Business Insider

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-m...oehner-says-us-health-care-system-best-world/

WHO | World Health Organization Assesses the World's Health Systems

TONS of info. out there.
 
You're looking at these things from only one side and ignoring the serious, serious flaws in our current system. Not good thinking OR debating.

No I'm looking at the only example we currently have of any sort of mandated health insurance we have in this country and what Obamacare is modeled on.
There are problems with it that need to be addressed. It's not like it has been a well functioning program for decades that just needs a tweak here or there.
 
Happy to do so. But are you acknowledging that you do NOT do your homework and are unaware of something everyone is aware of?

I am aware that by the metric you identified - health care - the United States is in fact doing quite well.


Yeah, and I've seen this before. Here's the problem with WHO, is that it isn't measuring health care. It measures a whole slew of things - for example, "equitability". So, if Country A and Country B both had a populace that suffered from some form of cancer, and then Country A found a way to cure half of those who came down with it, then according to the WHO Country A would have worse healthcare than Country B, simply because all of Country B's citizens are suffering equally, whereas half of Country A's get cured.

When you start looking at actual health care, you will notice, the story changes dramatically.

Americans have better survival rates than Europeans or Canadians for common cancers, they have better access to treatment for chronic disease, they have better access to preventative screening, they spend less time waiting for access to healthcare, they have access to higher quality healthcare, and they are therefore reasonably more satisfied with their healthcare.

So yeah. If you want to measure by "who does a better job of rationing", then that would be one of the single-payer nations. If you want to measure by "who has better health care", however, that would be the U.S. :)
 
So yeah. If you want to measure by "who does a better job of rationing", then that would be one of the single-payer nations. If you want to measure by "who has better health care", however, that would be the U.S. :)

You could also ask the preemies.
 
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