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Dorner: Executed or Accident?

Was Dorner executed or was it an unfortunate consequence?

  • YES, police knew teargas would burn him alive.

    Votes: 25 64.1%

  • NO, it was an honest attempt to subdue him.

    Votes: 14 35.9%
  • Total voters
    39
  • Poll closed .
What if...? said:
My bad, I was unaware they were allowing cameras to film the whole thing. They usually keep them back.

So, "He looked like he was going for a weapon", then.
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Backpedaling on CT is no fun. Eventually, you'll find some kind of subterfuge that could maybe possibly be employed to kill him illegally and...

therefore he had no chance.


Nonsense.
 
joko104 said:
Also, the poll question is an EXTREME anti police poll, since starting a fire in the cabin would NOT burn him alive. It would force him out with his only option being suicide.

Setting the cabin on fire would NOT have been "burning him alive." The OPer should just have started his OP with "I REALLY, REALLY HATE POLICE!" for how it is worded.
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So it's acceptable and justifiable police procedure to set fire to any structure a bad guy is hiding in, eh? Interesting.
 
Northern Light said:
It might have been necessary to kill this guy due to his resistance but over all I do not agree with your sentiment. Habeas corpus exists for a reason, so does trial by a jury of your peers.

We don't have a police force of Judge Dreds. Their job is to detain SUSPECTS for processing by the courts. Anything less if vigilante justice and violates the Bill of Rights.
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I think when you do what he did, you don't deserve a trial by jury. You've pretty much made it clear that you're either going to escape or die.

I'll let them facilitate the latter.
 
Gipper said:
I think when you do what he did, you don't deserve a trial by jury. You've pretty much made it clear that you're either going to escape or die.

I'll let them facilitate the latter.
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Doesn't matter if you think he doesn't "deserve" it, it is still required to provide it. And they cannot just go off and kill folk because someone shot at the police.
 
Ikari said:
Doesn't matter if you think he doesn't "deserve" it, it is still required to provide it. And they cannot just go off and kill folk because someone shot at the police.
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My brain knows you're right. My heart just wants this guy shot dead and his next of kin billed for the bullet.

That's why I've always had an internal struggle with my libertarianism. Some people just act like they don't deserve certain rights. I have streaks of elitism and meritocracy that just can't be 100% compatible with libertarian thought.
 
Gipper said:
My brain knows you're right. My heart just wants this guy shot dead and his next of kin billed for the bullet.
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Ahhh debtors prison. We don't allow that anymore either.

Gipper said:
That's why I've always had an internal struggle with my libertarianism. Some people just act like they don't deserve certain rights. I have streaks of elitism and meritocracy that just can't be 100% compatible with libertarian thought.
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Some people will certain act like the "don't deserve rights", but that doesn't mean we are justified in the arbitrary infringement of them. Proof and warrant are necessary to elicit government force against the rights and liberties of the individual.
 
Ikari said:
Ahhh debtors prison. We don't allow that anymore either.



Some people will certain act like the "don't deserve rights", but that doesn't mean we are justified in the arbitrary infringement of them. Proof and warrant are necessary to elicit government force against the rights and liberties of the individual.
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Again, I know you're right, I do. Sometimes it's just hard for me to stand and champion for guys who do this. Now if it was a freedom of speech issue about him railing about cops or his wife/girlfriend, sure. I'd never make a good lawyer. I couldn't argue for someone I know is guilty as all hell, and pretend that he deserves leniency or understanding.
 
Gipper said:
Again, I know you're right, I do. Sometimes it's just hard for me to stand and champion for guys who do this. Now if it was a freedom of speech issue about him railing about cops or his wife/girlfriend, sure. I'd never make a good lawyer. I couldn't argue for someone I know is guilty as all hell, and pretend that he deserves leniency or understanding.
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The government probably should temper their decisions with "will I force someone to kill me over this".
 
I expect Dorner had no intention of being taken alive. I also expect the police were more than willing to oblige him.

That said from what I heard of the audio the San Bernadino PD didn't sound particularly professional and it did sound to me like they intended to set fire to the cabin. Turning a cabin in a wooded area into a blazing inferno doesn't seem to be the brightest of ideas. That could have ended badly.
 
There was no way Dorner was going to be taken alive, whether he wanted to be or not. The two incidents of police firing on cars that looked like Dorner's proved that. We don't know what actually happened, and I imagine that the conspiracy theory rumor mills will be quite active after this. However, judging by the idiotic, overzealous response that involved shooting at unarmed people when there was zero evidence that the officers' lives were in danger, I wouldn't put it past the LAPD. Dorner was a murderer. There is no justifying that. He was also extremely dangerous, and it's just as likely that he did himself in rather than be taken alive. I get that, but the police only put the public in greater danger with their bone-headedness. This zealotry was enough to allow them to shoot at unarmed civilians. I highly doubt that they would have extended greater generosity toward someone who had killed their colleagues.
 
Unitedwestand13 said:
Since when has tear gas been used to start a fire?
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Teargas grenades usually results in a fire if the grenade is in contact with combustible materials.

Remember the SLA (Symbioses Liberation Army) shootout with the LAPD back in 1974 ? All of those leftist were burned alive when LAPD fired teargas grenades in to the house they were hold up in.

story_shootout.jpg
Photo of a SLA BBQ in South L.A.

It was Dorners choice just like the SLA members, he could have surrender or commit suicide by either affixation, burning to death or putting a bullet in his own head.
 
APACHERAT said:
Teargas grenades usually results in a fire if the grenade is in contact with combustible materials.

Remember the SLA (Symbioses Liberation Army) shootout with the LAPD back in 1974 ? All of those leftist were burned alive when LAPD fired teargas grenades in to the house they were hold up in.

View attachment 67142548
Photo of a SLA BBQ in South L.A.

It was Dorners choice just like the SLA members, he could have surrender or commit suicide by either affixation, burning to death or putting a bullet in his own head.
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....so it's ok to set buildings on fire to get bad guys; it's the bad guy's fault for dying in the fire.

Does that mean I can set fire to your house and if you die, I cannot be held to murder or manslaughter charges? I mean, it was your choice "stay in" there, yes?
 
ecofarm said:
Backpedaling on CT is no fun. Eventually, you'll find some kind of subterfuge that could maybe possibly be employed to kill him illegally and...

therefore he had no chance.


Nonsense.
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IME, in So Cal theres no such thing as a "bad shoot".

So there wouldn't be anything "illegal".

I'm sure an internal investigation would exonerate anyone who shot him.

You know, like the transit cop who shot the guy by mistake because he thought he had his taser.

The one on his "off" hip that somehow weighs the same as a loaded gun. Honest mistake.

Not.

You'll note I tend to come down on the side of LE. They have a complex and difficult job.

But i've had personal experience with So Cal cops that would cause any rwasonable person to have reservations in regard to their professionalism.

LA and San Bernadino are particularly notorious.

So the "unthinkable" tack you're taking doesn't apply.

Police misbehavior is RARELY seriously dealt with. It's a weird psychology. Admitting misbehavior damages public confidence in the police in general. Covering misbehavior up only outrages the victims and their families. Standard PR methods. Mimimize negative public sentiment. **** the truth.

It's a big part of negative attitudes towards police. Only takes one instance where you know for a fact they're being dishonest to make you doubt their veracity forever. Eventually, so many experience this it causes widespread animosity.

To which LE responds with more excessive behavior to maintain "respect". (Paraphrase of an actual conversation with an LA gang unit cop in Venice during the incident i mentioned upthread)
 
APACHERAT said:
That seems to be the long standing SOP.
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Well that may go more towards proving Dorner's case and not so much exonerating the police.
 
Re: Donner: Executed or Accident?

Neosteve said:
There is a town in Texas called Waco. Another unfortunate accident.
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Implying ???
Nut cases with deadly weapons....and I mean the wrong-doer...NOT the police ...
Deadly results are to be expected....
 
Ikari said:
Does that mean I can set fire to your house and if you die, I cannot be held to murder or manslaughter charges? I mean, it was your choice "stay in" there, yes?
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Where I live, most people are conservative and our police department is proactive instead of reactive.

But if you were to burn down my home with me inside, it's 99 % sure that the cops would track you down and if your found hold up in your house, they are going to fire a dozen teargas grenades in to your house. Justice has been served and it cost the tax payers little because your not going to get your day in court.
 
APACHERAT said:
Where I live, most people are conservative and our police department is proactive instead of reactive.
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Proactive police!? That's very scary.

APACHERAT said:
But if you were to burn down my home with me inside, it's 99 % sure that the cops would track you down and if your found hold up in your house, they are going to fire a dozen teargas grenades in to your house. Justice has been served and it cost the tax payers little because your not going to get your day in court.
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Ahhh, I see. You're one of those Judge Dredd type authoritarians.
 
grip said:
The article says the police shot teargas canisters in the cabin knowing they'd likely start a fire. The comments by LAPD are reported as saying, "burn this mother****er down."
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Extremism in our police forces is a problem...this "gentleman" had already murdered two policemen....so, I would have done the same.
And I do have a poor opinion of the media.
And, how the hell are tear gas canisters going to start any fire ?
 
They let that <self-edit> burn to a crisp and I don't blame them one bit.

Just a lil' sample of what he has to look forward to for eternity! LOL!
 
Re: Donner: Executed or Accident?

Ray410 said:
There should be a third category in the above poll and that is "Who cares?"

Even in our liberal, pop culture, tolerant, no judgments society, some people reveal themselves to be so depraved that they need killing. Dorner was in that category.
Click to expand...

Judge....jury....executioner...
And another man, down the drain...we will learn nothing...
Are we human or animals ?
 
earthworm said:
Extremism in our police forces is a problem...this "gentleman" had already murdered two policemen....so, I would have done the same.
And I do have a poor opinion of the media.
And, how the hell are tear gas canisters going to start any fire ?
Click to expand...

Normally there are certain situations that require deadly force. A suspect attacking with weapons or holding hostages, otherwise they generally try to arrest them for trial.

To give the police a benefit of a doubt if a suspect is highly trained, killed other individuals (+police) and made no indication of giving up, then I wouldn't think it unreasonable to use extreme measures to subdue him. Dorner was most likely going to continue to kill as long as he was alive and had opportunity. But being cornered and cutoff from hurting others he could've been outlasted.


I'm not an expert on teargas but according to the article they're labeled with warnings: "possesses fire potential" and get very hot.
 
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